News:


  • May 02, 2024, 08:29:16 AM

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: a NOT so simple motor question???  (Read 1698 times)

Offline chuck_b24

  • AMA Member
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • New Pilot
  • *
  • Posts: 20
a NOT so simple motor question???
« on: August 13, 2011, 03:27:09 PM »
what do all the numbers mean???

2820/5....7....11.. ECT

2210

2832

can anyone explain this for DUMMIES???

the ONLY thing I "THINK" i know is KV= rpm per volt... (I think)sorta)maybe)

PLEASE!!!!!!!    HB~>    HB~>      HB~>

Offline John Hammonds

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 567
Re: a NOT so simple motor question???
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2011, 04:32:58 PM »
Hi Chuck,
Well, I have to say this is something which really annoys me about the published specs across various motor manufacturers.  HB~>

I may have this totally wrong but I think in the case of Arrowind/Emax/E-POWER, AXI, Scorpion motors (And a few others) the dimensions relate to the Stator Diameter and length. So in the case of a Scorpion 3014 it has a 30mm diameter stator which is 14mm in length or an AXI 2826 has a 28mm Diameter stator and a length of 26mm, an Emax 2815 has a stator length of 28mm and a length of 15mm. The other number (2826/12 - 3014/16 "usually" relates to the number of winds and does have a direct relationship to the Kv for a given model of motor within a manufacturer). But other manufacturers use totally different numbers. Hacker I have no idea, XYH seem to use Can dimensions, E-flight seem to use IC equivalent (Like E Flight 15 - But way off base as far as a true comparison is concerned).

I usually go by the power (Watts) rather than anything else and I figure as long as I have 150Watts or more of power per pound of model weight I'm good to go.

This along with the insistence of using different balance plugs across the various Lipo makes is my biggest rant.   R%%%%

I'm sure someone more knowledgeable than me will correct my assumptions or provide a more definitive explanation.

TTFN
John.
I started out with nothing and still have most of it left.....
Fast, Cheap, Reliable - Choose any 2!
BMFA 165249

Offline Tim Wescott

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 12808
Re: a NOT so simple motor question???
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2011, 04:58:15 PM »
John, you got it right -- the designation numbers mean what the motor manufacturer wants them to mean, nothing more.

RPM/volt, continuous current (be wary of "peak" current ratings unless it specifies a minimum time), weight, etc. -- those are much more definitive.  Even there, I'd expect a lot more consistency across product lines, and more of a tendency to be honest from the big name manufacturers -- there's nothing to keep someone from building a motor that'll run just short of melting at it's rated power level, and little to keep a foreign company from selling one that will melt at rated power.

Lessee.  Based on my day job, the specifications that mean something are:

  • Kv (RPM/volt)
  • Continuous current (read the fine print if they're specifying air flow)
  • Maximum RPM
  • weight
  • shaft size
  • stated dimensions (not funky codes)

Those are the motor specifications that you should look for; the rest has to come from computation (or copying something that works, which is more dependable even if you're a supposed expert).

Motor power is more or less a derived specification: the electromagnetic assembly generates torque according to the current, then the faster you spin the motor the more power you make, until either the ESC gets too inefficient because things are switching too fast, the motor flies apart, or the loss generated by windage overcomes the torque.  If the three, the first two are the most likely.

So it's almost always true that with an electric motor, you can spin it faster and get more power.  This is why you used to get fancy gearboxes for your motors a decade ago -- the motors then available were skinny little things that didn't generate much torque, and the gearbox would let the motor spin at a better power-generating speed, while the gearbox would spin the prop at a better thrust-generating speed.  Outrunner motors are actually less efficient than the "inrunner" motors that you use in ducted fans or with gearboxes -- but they're generally more efficient and lighter than an inrunner motor + gearbox (although there are still high-end inrunner/gearbox combos available, I think).

Your challenge is to juggle RPM, Kv, motor cells, and prop combinations to get something that is going to take the power from the batteries and effectively apply it to the air.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline John Cralley

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1235
Re: a NOT so simple motor question???
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2011, 05:29:12 PM »
Chuck,

Go here and scroll down to find a combo that is close to plane you are planning to use/build and this should give you a workable combination.

Why do this? Because motor manufacturers don't give you enough meaningful information. Looking at their numbers is all too often like comparing apples and oranges.

http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=12044.0
John Cralley
Scratch Built - Often Re-kitted!!!
AMA 52183
Central Illinois

Offline Heman Lee

  • AeroManiacs
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 102
    • AeroManiacs
Re: a NOT so simple motor question???
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2011, 11:42:17 PM »
On most of the non-descript Chinese clone motors the number means the outside diameter and length of the case, which is even more meaningless.  For example an AXI spec of 2820 is equivalent to 3548 or C3548.

Offline Tim Wescott

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 12808
Re: a NOT so simple motor question???
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2011, 12:05:43 AM »
Why do this? Because motor manufacturers don't give you enough meaningful information. Looking at their numbers is all too often like comparing apples and oranges.
How so?  The important predictors are Kv, maximum current, and weight.  Nearly all the motor listings I've seen include that information.  Stuff like whether the thing can go around a 5' radius corner without the bearings falling out matters, and isn't something that a manufacturer would ever admit to having problems with, but I would certainly view that as cause to check out which brand is good, not which planes should be slavishly copied.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Dean Pappas

  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1195
  • Welcome to the Stunt Hanger.
Re: a NOT so simple motor question???
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2011, 03:10:49 PM »
Like Tim said ... only I would add that it's nice to look at the bearing sizes and bearing count (Pletty and big Hackers)

Dean
Dean Pappas

Offline John Cralley

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1235
Re: a NOT so simple motor question???
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2011, 06:19:19 PM »
Tim you are correct except that in some cases the listed Kv and the actual Kv are two totally different things!!!
John Cralley
Scratch Built - Often Re-kitted!!!
AMA 52183
Central Illinois

Offline Tim Wescott

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 12808
Re: a NOT so simple motor question???
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2011, 07:37:58 PM »
Like Tim said ... only I would add that it's nice to look at the bearing sizes and bearing count (Pletty and big Hackers)
I was thinking as I wrote the above that I wasn't putting enough emphasis on the fact that the mechanical construction matters -- thanks for back-filling!

Tim you are correct except that in some cases the listed Kv and the actual Kv are two totally different things!!!
That's not a case of the specifications being insufficient, though -- that's a case of the specifications being wrong.  I would hope that the manufacturers that regularly get that wrong get found out, and spanked by the market (in the form of people avoiding their products).
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Ward Van Duzer

  • 2015
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1284
Re: a NOT so simple motor question???
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2011, 02:54:59 PM »
John,

"I usually go by the power (Watts) rather than anything else and I figure as long as I have 150Watts or more of power per pound of model weight I'm good to go."


So where does watts come from?

W.
I hate spelling errors, you mess up 2 letters and you are urined!

Don't hesitate to ask dumb questions.
They are easier to handle than dumb mistakes!  Ward-O AMA 6022

Offline Tim Wescott

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 12808
Re: a NOT so simple motor question???
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2011, 03:22:40 PM »
So where does watts come from?

Sometimes the motor manufacturer will say.  Other times, you have to remember that power = voltage * current.  Then you have to look at the maximum rated current for the motor (be careful about peak and continuous ratings) and multiply it by your intended pack voltage to get the power available.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline John Hammonds

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 567
Re: a NOT so simple motor question???
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2011, 03:18:35 AM »
John,

"I usually go by the power (Watts) rather than anything else and I figure as long as I have 150Watts or more of power per pound of model weight I'm good to go."


So where does watts come from?

W.
Hi Ward,
 Basically what Tim said. I'm aware that I tend to use "Kindergarten" physics a large %age of the time. I usually just check the manufacturers specs (Some can be trusted more than others). So for example. . . . .

A Scorpion SII-3014-1040KV
According to Scorpion it can handle a maximum of 40A and output 600W, based on 3 cells (3.7 nominal) 40A * 11.1V gives me 444W. If I go to 4 cells it comes out at 592W. Scorpion say the current rating is "Continuous" and all I can do is trust them to be telling me the truth.

E-Power BL2815 1100kv (These is also known as Arrowind motors)
The specs for this one show a maximum efficiency current rating of 25-35A with a burst current of 46A so at Max efficiency it works in the range of 277 -> 388W with a short burst of up to 510W (Based on 3 cells). I usually tend to ignore the burst current

I have a simple spreadsheet I use https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkULk7WbzmeMdHIyV2JhMkVwV2ZZVkRwUzlkYnZodVE&hl=en_US

(Usual disclaimers apply)..  :)

I've left access to it completely open so if anyone plays around with it and feels the need to change/correct any of the formula of the on-line document let me know, thanks

I know it's very simple but it's surprising how accurate it seems to be for the sort of models I usually fly. (Just a sport flyer who enters the occasional  competition).

TTFN
John.

I started out with nothing and still have most of it left.....
Fast, Cheap, Reliable - Choose any 2!
BMFA 165249

Offline Dean Pappas

  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1195
  • Welcome to the Stunt Hanger.
Re: a NOT so simple motor question???
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2011, 07:44:14 AM »
Tim you are correct except that in some cases the listed Kv and the actual Kv are two totally different things!!!

Hello All.
John, please explain what you mean by listed and actual being different? This may be a matter of definition.
Dean P.
Dean Pappas

Offline Igor Burger

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 2166
Re: a NOT so simple motor question???
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2011, 08:56:20 AM »
Be carefull with those "max currents". There are stated at some "nominal" voltage, as is the max efficiency current. But if you go ho higher voltage, it can be different, higher voltage means higher RPM and thus higher iron loses and thus more heating, so it is neccessary to kepp the current little down and it will soon show you that some "weight cathegory" falls to some "power cathegory" ... so it is sometimes better to choose motors by weigt  VD~

The same happens with max efficiency current, it is stated also at nomominal voltage, but unlike max current, if you go to higher voltage, the max efficiency current goes also up.

And one note on end - both those numbers are for full power, everything changes at parcial PWM feeding :- )))))


Advertise Here
Tags:
 


Advertise Here