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Author Topic: 3S v 4S v 5S? Is more always better?  (Read 976 times)

Offline John Hammonds

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3S v 4S v 5S? Is more always better?
« on: December 12, 2012, 03:45:07 PM »
Hi All,
 It's amazing the things you think you understand until you actually try to explain them to someone.   ??? I recently dug myself a big hole and it's been troubling me for weeks.

What are the reasons for choosing say a 4S system over a 3S system? Assuming I have a requirement for a 500W motor and I have two of them, one with a Kv of 900 and one with a Kv of 1200. Let's say I have decided I want to turn a prop at 10,000prm and both motors are happy with the (Same) prop. Putting a 900Kv motor on a 4 cell pack running at 75% gives me 10,000rpm. Putting the 1200Kv motor on a 3 cell pack running at 75% gives me 10,000rpm. If both are developing 500W then I am pulling just over 34A on the 4S system and a tad under 45A on the 3S system. Assuming I have a battery with sufficient "C" rating and my ESC is well up to the task why would I choose one over the other?

I did an extensive search on the forum and as you would expect there are loads of threads where it is referenced, some becoming quite vehement with people throwing their toys out of the pram and leaving forever. :( But nowhere have I found anyone who actually explains why more cells might be better.

To my elementary mind 500W is 500W and it does not matter how you slice the cake, all things being equal 4S or 3S, as long as the watts developed is what I want why should I worry? Yes Amps go up at lower voltages but if the package will handle it so what?

Are higher cell counts more efficient? is it a heat thing? I guess Voltage is the one thing we can't control so variable amps are used to maintain the power output as the voltage drops and the model manoeuvres (Is that correct)? So a bigger variation in amps is required at a lower voltage causing a "soggy" feel as the amps are ramped up? Is that the reason?

I'm not trying to stir anything up here I really do want to know.

Thanks in advance

TTFN
John.
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: 3S v 4S v 5S? Is more always better?
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2012, 04:27:56 PM »
It's really only a heat thing indirectly.  It's more a cost thing, and a size thing, and a weight thing.

ESCs get more expensive fairly slowly as the voltage goes up.  The first break is at about 5V (that's where you stop being able to drive the transistor gates straight from the processor, and have to use drivers).  The second break is at about 15-20V (that's where you stop being able to drive the transistor gates with inexpensive drivers, and have to use ones with bootstrap circuits).  I'm not exactly sure where the third break is, but there's a transistor-market one at 40V and there's certainly a regulatory one at 60V (that's where your system stops being a "low voltage" system).  I'm not sure how that regulatory break plays out with our systems since we buy components and put the systems together ourselves, but it's gotta mean something in terms of product liability.

ESCs get more expensive pretty directly as the current goes up: you want more current, you gotta pay for mo-better transistors to handle it.  Moreover, if the ESC has multiple transistors per leg, the circuit complexity goes up and so do production and design costs.

Wires need to be sized to match current more than voltage.  Look at your motor wires: the amount of copper is there to carry the current, the thickness of the insulation is there to keep the voltage inside.  That insulation is probably rated for more than 100V, so it isn't going to get thicker until you're pushing 30 cells.  OTOH, motor wires sized for 45A need to be 25% bigger than motor wires sized for 34A.  Ditto battery wires, connectors, any arming switches, etc.

In the extreme, consider what you'd have if you found a 135A ESC that worked at 3.5V, a 3600kV motor, and one honkin' big cell.  All your wires would have to be twice the diameter and four times the weight of your 4S setup.  The circuit traces on the ESC would have to have four times the area, too, and the transistors would have to be rated for 135A each, or they'd have to be paralleled up.  That means that the ESC would be approximately the same size, weight, and cost of a 135A-capable 4S ESC.  All your connectors would have to be capable of 135A.  And, when you went to install it, your wires would be something like eight times stiffer as you go to bend them around corners (if I'm remembering my mechanical engineering stuff right), not to mention bigger (remember bigger?).

So I guess the real bottom line is that the difference between 3S and 4S isn't big, unless you've hit the threshold of your favorite connector's current ratings, or you need a bigger ESC.  But, in general, as the power level goes up it is convenient for both the current and voltage to go up, too -- too much of either one or the other is going to get you out of the sweet spot, and leave you with a system that's heavy, inconvenient, expensive, or some combination thereof.

I'm not sure if I'm explaining this well, but I hope my absurd example of a 1S setup makes it clear...
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Offline John Hammonds

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Re: 3S v 4S v 5S? Is more always better?
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2012, 05:30:46 PM »
Hi Tim,
 Many thanks, Your explanation using one "Honkin big cell" makes sense. As you also say though 3S - 4S (Or 4S - 5S) seems to be largely dependent on what you have available and assuming everything is running in it's sweet spot then just because I have a large model there is no specific point where I "Should" be running a specific cell count. I can see the benefits of keeping the current under control though.

I seem to remember someone had an Excitation flying a few years ago with an AXI2820/8 (1500Kv) on a 3S2P A123 set up with no ill effects.

Again thanks for describing it at a level even I can get my head around.

TTFN
John.
I started out with nothing and still have most of it left.....
Fast, Cheap, Reliable - Choose any 2!
BMFA 165249


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