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Author Topic: 4s "v" 5s  (Read 1072 times)

Offline Russell Bond

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4s "v" 5s
« on: September 10, 2012, 06:03:11 PM »
Hi all,
After the heat at the World's (40c) where my batteries ran hot, I am thinking of converting to 5s instead of 4s batteries.
(Along with better cooling of course and change the motor to 770k/v instead of 930.)
Is there any other advantage of running 5s instead of 4s besides the batteries running cooler, along with the ESC?

Plane is 680 squares and weighs 69oz.
It performed perfectly, it's just that the batteries ran hot.
Bandolero

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: 4s "v" 5s
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2012, 06:25:54 PM »
Here's the theoretical answer, because any real-world answer runs up against questions of what the manufacturers are actually doing today.

If you change from a 4s pack to a 5s pack and you adjust the per-cell capacity down by a factor of 4/5 to match the 5/4 increase in voltage, you'll keep the total pack energy the same.

Assuming that your ESC and motor efficiencies remain largely the same, the increased voltage means your current will go down by a factor of 4/5.

So your capacity will have dropped by 20%, your current will have dropped by 20%, and -- all else being equal -- your battery heating will remain the same.

Only if you go to higher "C" rated batteries, or keep the same cell capacity (thus making your pack 20% heavier), will you pull less current compared to the cell's "C" rating -- so I wouldn't anticipate less heating.  If anything, unless you go to a 2 + 3 pair of packs with airflow in between, I would expect that you'd see worse cooling rather than better.

If someone was running 5s packs and they were running cooler, it was either because (a) the batteries had better real-world discharge performance than yours did (and manufacturers "C" ratings vary wildly.  I can't quite say they're all lies, but I wouldn't depend on them much), or (b) they had better cooling than you did.

A higher cell count will probably result in lower dissipation from the ESC, if its power loss is more conductive than from switching losses (switched amplifiers, like ESCs, suffer from switching losses that go by voltage).  But maybe not (I'd believe what Castle or Shultzi, and probably Jeti, says on this, but not any Chinese ESC manufacturer).

So I wouldn't expect a change from 4s to 5s to drive a change in pack temperature to any extent other than any other random battery change would.  It may do other good things, but to drive the pack temperature down I'd go for better cooling, and maybe buy higher "C" rated batteries from the same manufacturer, or look around for a different manufacturer with a more conservative "C" rating.
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Offline Curare

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Re: 4s "v" 5s
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2012, 01:40:00 AM »
How hot is hot? Were the packs puffed at all?
Greg Kowalski
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Offline Allan Perret

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Re: 4s "v" 5s
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2012, 06:10:21 AM »
Here's the theoretical answer, because any real-world answer runs up against questions of what the manufacturers are actually doing today.

If you change from a 4s pack to a 5s pack and you adjust the per-cell capacity down by a factor of 4/5 to match the 5/4 increase in voltage, you'll keep the total pack energy the same.

So your capacity will have dropped by 20%, your current will have dropped by 20%, and -- all else being equal -- your battery heating will remain the same.
"Total pack energy"   and   "capacity"  are they not the same thing ?   So how can one stay the same and the other drop by 20% ?
Allan Perret
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Offline Frank Imbriaco

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Re: 4s "v" 5s
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2012, 06:32:46 AM »
I was told by several that 770KV would require a 5S pack. I can't  provide theory, but personal experience in the form of my SV-11 @ 68.8 ounces RTF , .018 stranded 63' eye to eye, 13 x 5.5 APC pusher APC, 5.3 lap time.
Started with a Powerflight E-25(870KV) and a TP 4S 3900. Flew that combo over 100 flights. At the turbulent N.E. fields I fly at, I never felt that it had enough overhead punch.
So, I swapped for a Powerflight E-32 (770KV) and went with a GensAce 5S 3300 and it has been the right choice. To get to the core of your question about heat, my 5S packs are no warmer than the 4S.Never put a temp meter to them as they aren't hot, just comfortably warm to the touch after a 5min 30 sec flight on a 90 degree day.
OK, don't forget that the extra cell of the 5S creates  a tighter battery compartment  and depending upon that, there will be less airflow around the packs.
I use about 2150 mAh per flight which means a huge reserve. Gens Ace does not have a 5S 2700 pack which would be ideal; only a 5S 2500 and that would've been marginal on reserve capacity. TP makes a 5S 2700 pack, but I didn't want to spring for the extra dough. BTW, I've been happy with the Gens Ace packs in my e- Ukie and 2 meter R/C pattern applications. They are heavier than TP, but much less costly and the packs seem robust.

Hope this helps.

Offline phil c

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Re: 4s "v" 5s
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2012, 06:50:43 AM »
I think you have to look at the internal resistance of the cells.  Smaller cells seem to generally have proportionately more resistance(the smaller plate area that the current has to flow through).  If the smaller cells have the same resistance as your current ones the higher voltage and lower current will result in less power loss in the batteries- less heating.

So look for the cells with the highest base current capacity.  That normally indicates a lower internal resistance and better efficiency.  Lower internal resistance, higher discharge rate to capacity, and lower overall weight all come at higher cost.
phil Cartier

Offline Russell Bond

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Re: 4s "v" 5s
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2012, 07:49:52 AM »
No, the batteries weren't puffy, just hot.
If you think the 5 cell batteries won't be any cooler than the 4 cell, I'll stick to 4 cell and fix the cooling.
Also, if I stick to 4 cell, I won't have to buy a 770 motor instead of the 930.
The batteries are ThunderPower 3900 25c.
Bandolero

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: 4s "v" 5s
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2012, 09:36:06 AM »
So look for the cells with the highest base current capacity.  That normally indicates a lower internal resistance and better efficiency.

I was using the wrong terminology last night, at least partially.  It's discharge rating in "C", not just "C".  But what you say above is true -- just keep in mind that there isn't an industry standard as to what the discharge rating means, so a cheap Chinese pack with an "80C" discharge rating may be no better than a name-brand "40C" pack.

"Total pack energy"   and   "capacity"  are they not the same thing ?   So how can one stay the same and the other drop by 20% ?

Pack capacity is the total pack charge in amp-hours or milli-amp-hours.  Pack energy is proportional to the capacity times voltage.
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Igor Burger

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Re: 4s "v" 5s
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2012, 02:26:22 PM »
Hmmm ... my battery was hot already before start :- ))))))

Offline Russell Bond

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Re: 4s "v" 5s
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2012, 03:51:20 PM »
Haha....So was everybody!!!! ......40c .......Yuk!  ~^
Bandolero


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