Author Topic: Timer/ESC with over amp protection i.e. stop motor due to a hard prop strike (Read 9537 times)

Scott Bauman · « **on:** January 22, 2015, 08:10:00 PM »

Currently I do not have an electric CL model but I have a motor and ESC I plan on using in a Vector 40 conversion. However, I would like to know if a timer/ESC exists that will turn the power off in the event of a crash or heavy prop strike.

I have looked a bit for a timer/ESC combo that has some sort of over amp protection. I think over amp is the correct term. I'm not an electronics expert so I'm not sure of the correct words to use so bear with me.
What I am looking for is a timer/ESC that will stop the motor in the event of a crash, heavy prop strike on the ground etc. For example a typical nitro model engine will more than likely quit if you have a prop strike on the ground or the engine will quit if you crash. Or if a nitro motor is running and you need to stop it you can toss a towel onto the prop to make it quit. But an electric motor will keep trying to run as long as current is flowing to the motor even if the motor is stalled.

Does a timer/ESC setup like this exist? If one does not exist is there an electronics engineering reason why it does not exist?

It seems to me this type of time/esc combo would be a good thing.
Thanks for any replies-Scott

Fred Underwood · « **Reply #1 on:** January 22, 2015, 09:36:04 PM »

I believe that you are describing this type timer/governor - KR governor.

http://www.rsmdistribution.com/index-2.htm

Go to Electric Products, then KR governor.

I fortunately have not had occasion to test that feature.

Tim Wescott · « **Reply #2 on:** January 22, 2015, 10:58:52 PM »

True overcurrent protection would be a function of an ESC. Supposedly the Castle ESC's provide this, but I've heard that the protection they offer is pretty iffy. Someone may have more recent news on this score.

Everything I've heard about the KR governor is good. It senses the speed of the motor and uses that both to regulate the motor speed, and to shut it down if it suddenly stops.

Jonathan Chivers · « **Reply #3 on:** January 23, 2015, 06:47:08 AM »

Castle Creations Phoenix ICELite50 certainly does this, i have tested this function multiple time! It also has C/L governor mode and data logging so you can see exactly what is happening in flight. You will also need to buy the USB adapter from Castle. Plus you will need the software to run on your laptop to both program the ESC (fiddle with the setting to match your engine) and download and view the logging data. But it is a worth while investment.

Jonathan

Don Coe · « **Reply #4 on:** January 23, 2015, 07:05:39 AM »

Speaking from experience, unfortunately, the RSM system with the K2 governor works just how it's supposed to.

Frank Imbriaco · « **Reply #5 on:** January 23, 2015, 08:22:25 AM »

The Castle Creations ESC for brushless motors DO provide what you are looking for. You must obtain a Castle Link and use the tabs to create settings .
Advise that you go to the top of this column and reference Norm Whittle's Cookbook for suggested settings.

David Hoover · « **Reply #6 on:** January 23, 2015, 08:56:22 AM »

Quote from: Don Coe on January 23, 2015, 07:05:39 AM

Speaking from experience, unfortunately, the RSM system with the K2 governor works just how it's supposed to.

The KR timer/governor gets my vote too. I'm quite new to electric CL as well and I'm using the KR timer/governor with a Hobbywing ESC. I got the tail high enough going through grass that the prop was hitting the grass and the timer shut it down just from that. Impressive!

John Rist · « **Reply #7 on:** January 23, 2015, 10:44:45 PM »

For easy peasy set up and bullet proof prop strike protection the KR timer gets my vote. My cell phone only makes phone calls. It is refreshing to have a timer that works and doesn't require a collage degree or a computer to set up. I have only noised mine over once but it stopped the motor instantly. The KR does require the ability to solder but this a required skill if you do much electric flying. PS works with most low end cheep speed controllers.

Horby · « **Reply #8 on:** January 25, 2015, 09:13:05 AM »

KR timer/governer all the way, blows the FM out of the water, Turnegy Trust esc's also work verry well with the KR.

Just my 2c.

Scott Bauman · « **Reply #9 on:** January 28, 2015, 07:25:10 AM »

Thank you for all of the helpful information.
Scott

Frank Imbriaco · « **Reply #10 on:** January 28, 2015, 02:56:32 PM »

Quote from: Horby on January 25, 2015, 09:13:05 AM

KR timer/governer all the way, blows the FM out of the water

Just my 2c.

How so ?

Eric Viglione · « **Reply #11 on:** January 28, 2015, 03:46:54 PM »

As someone who was looking down the business end of an oncoming planes post crash remnants with motor still running full bore and heading towards me and my plane in the pits a couple weeks ago, I applaud your effort to avoid such things.

It wasn't fun not knowing if I should run, try to grab my plane and run, or grab the orange safety cone to try and swat it away.

Fortunately the pilot was aware of the situation and still retained the handle, so what was left of the plane reached the end of the lines and they held, before it reached me or my plane.

If you are wondering what my final choice was, I'll tell you... I chose to stand my ground and wait it out with the orange cone, because I figured I'd potentially do more damage to my plane trying to pick it up and run with it...then I'd really feel stupid if the run away wreck never came my way, which it didn't, so it seems I made the right choice.

EricV

Crist Rigotti · « **Reply #12 on:** January 28, 2015, 04:53:00 PM »

Quote from: Frank Imbriaco on January 28, 2015, 02:56:32 PM

How so ?

Good question!

John Rist · « **Reply #13 on:** January 30, 2015, 09:11:13 AM »

Quote from: Frank Imbriaco on January 28, 2015, 02:56:32 PM

How so ?

What was the timer use in reply # 11 of this thread? If it was an FM timer enough said. A KR timer most likely would have stopped the motor. Of course you can come up with a sequence of events that will bypass any safety feature but the KR timer covers more possibilities then the FM timer.

Crist Rigotti · « **Reply #14 on:** January 30, 2015, 10:36:37 AM »

Quote from: Crist Rigotti on January 28, 2015, 04:53:00 PM

Good question!

Still waiting to hear from Horby.

Frank Imbriaco · « **Reply #15 on:** January 30, 2015, 05:56:30 PM »

I'm certain that the KR unit is very good and those who use them are satisfied.

A large number of East Coast guys use the Hubin FM-9 and are satisfied in all respects.

To boot, designer/ manufacturer Will Hubin is a gentleman beyond measure who provides a superior level of support to his customers.

Frank Imbriaco · « **Reply #16 on:** January 30, 2015, 06:01:44 PM »

Quote from: John Rist on January 30, 2015, 09:11:13 AM

What was the timer use in reply # 11 of this thread? If it was an FM timer enough said. A KR timer most likely would have stopped the motor.

The FM timer will indeed protect from a prop strike if the ESC is properly programmed using the Castle Link. The guys I fly with here on the East Coast are no slouches and would not use it if it didn't handle that and every other requirement.

John Cralley · « **Reply #17 on:** January 30, 2015, 07:23:15 PM »

Quote from: Frank Imbriaco on January 30, 2015, 05:56:30 PM

I'm certain that the KR unit is very good and those who use them are satisfied.

A large number of East Coast guys use the Hubin FM-9 and are satisfied in all respects.

To boot, designer/ manufacturer Will Hubin is a gentleman beyond measure who provides a superior level of support to his customer.

Ditto to what Frank said!

John Rist · « **Reply #18 on:** January 31, 2015, 08:31:42 AM »

My Chevy is better than your Ford!!!!

Lets start a new argument!!

Horby · « **Reply #19 on:** February 01, 2015, 09:27:25 PM »

for those waiting for my response. .... the KR doesn't need complicated or expenive esc's to work, prop strikes don't pop other electronics, they ramp up rpm under load (4-2 brake), and they kick into batery save mode before the esc does so you don't end up with a puffy batery. But..... they are a pain to program compared to the FM.

And I drive a Jeep which is better than Ford or Chevy. Phhhht! ;-p

Warren

John Rist · « **Reply #20 on:** February 01, 2015, 11:56:24 PM »

Quote from: Horby on February 01, 2015, 09:27:25 PM

for those waiting for my response. .... the KR doesn't need complicated or expenive esc's to work, prop strikes don't pop other electronics, they ramp up rpm under load (4-2 brake), and they kick into batery save mode before the esc does so you don't end up with a puffy batery. But..... they are a pain to program compared to the FM.

And I drive a Jeep which is better than Ford or Chevy. Phhhht! ;-p

Warren

Great response!!!!

Crist Rigotti · « **Reply #21 on:** February 02, 2015, 08:45:02 AM »

Quote from: Horby on February 01, 2015, 09:27:25 PM

for those waiting for my response. .... the KR doesn't need complicated or expenive esc's to work, prop strikes don't pop other electronics, they ramp up rpm under load (4-2 brake), and they kick into batery save mode before the esc does so you don't end up with a puffy batery. But..... they are a pain to program compared to the FM.

And I drive a Jeep which is better than Ford or Chevy. Phhhht! ;-p

Warren

Horby,
Thanks for your detailed response why KR timer blow FM timers out of the water. I guess your ending comment in reply #8 sums it up.

Frank Imbriaco · « **Reply #22 on:** February 02, 2015, 11:55:40 AM »

Hi Guys :
I, too, drive a Jeep( Wrangler Unlimited) at this time , but deep down I've always been a Chevy guy because over 40 years ago , (weep, sob, sniffle ) I had a SuperSport and Vettes . Would auction off the wife

to have my Nova SS again !

To further complicate matters- my current garage Queen ,of all things, is a Ford - an 08 Mustang Bullitt.
So, like Chevy, Ford and Jeep owners who get along despite their differences, all timers are good and reliable because they get the job done.

Tim Wescott · « **Reply #23 on:** February 02, 2015, 12:10:46 PM »

Quote from: Frank Imbriaco on January 30, 2015, 06:01:44 PM

The FM timer will indeed protect from a prop strike if the ESC is properly programmed using the Castle Link.

Just picking nits, because I see no problem with the Hubin system: the FM timer cannot protect against a prop strike, because it gets no feedback about what the motor is doing. The ESC is what protects against a prop strike, and a Hubin timer/ESC system is only as good at protecting against prop strikes as the ESC is.

The KR timer doesn't depend on the ESC: rather, it monitors what the motor is doing and cuts the throttle if the motor stops when it shouldn't. In this case, the timer is the part of the system that protects against prop strikes.

Ultimately it's a six-of-one, half dozen of the other proposition: either system will work, but you need to understand which bits are doing which part of the job.

Frank Imbriaco · « **Reply #24 on:** February 02, 2015, 12:21:46 PM »

Quote from: Tim Wescott on February 02, 2015, 12:10:46 PM

Just picking nits, because I see no problem with the Hubin system: the FM timer cannot protect against a prop strike, because it gets no feedback about what the motor is doing. The ESC is what protects against a prop strike, and a Hubin timer/ESC system is only as good at protecting against prop strikes as the ESC is.

The KR timer doesn't depend on the ESC: rather, it monitors what the motor is doing and cuts the throttle if the motor stops when it shouldn't. In this case, the timer is the part of the system that protects against prop strikes.

Ultimately it's a six-of-one, half dozen of the other proposition: either system will work, but you need to understand which bits are doing which part of the job.

Thought I'd said that with a lot fewer words...

John Rist · « **Reply #25 on:** February 02, 2015, 11:31:10 PM »

Admittedly both setups should protect everything in the case of a prop strike. It is worth noting that each setup uses a different method of doing so. The FM timer relies on the speed controller to detect a over current condition to shout down. The KR timer watches motor RPMs to determine when it is time to shout things down. I have never owned one so I really don't know how effective a speed controller is at keeping things safe by looking at the current. I assume that it is programmable. If you set the current trip point too low you could have an unexpected motor stoppage from the extra current required to do a maneuver. If you set it too high it may protect the speed controller but burn out the motor. On the other hand the KR timer looks at RPMs and shouts it all down if the RPMs get too low or too high. In my mind this is a much more precise method of protection. The KR timer will work with a cheep speed controller. The nay sayers will say: "but then you don't have data logging". True but the KR timer will also work with the expensive speed controllers that does have data logging. If I could afford the expensive speed controllers with data logging I guess I would still use the KR timer because in my mind it provides more positive overload protection assuring my expensive speed controller would survive the dumb things I have been know to do.

PS I drive a Chevy. It was cheep and it gets me from point A to point B. Had a Ford once, it was also OK. Never had a Jeep but I think they look cool!

Horby · « **Reply #26 on:** February 03, 2015, 08:24:41 PM »

Quote from: John Rist on February 02, 2015, 11:31:10 PM

Admittedly both setups should protect everything in the case of a prop strike. It is worth noting that each setup uses a different method of doing so. The FM timer relies on the speed controller to detect a over current condition to shout down. The KR timer watches motor RPMs to determine when it is time to shout things down. I have never owned one so I really don't know how effective a speed controller is at keeping things safe by looking at the current. I assume that it is programmable. If you set the current trip point too low you could have an unexpected motor stoppage from the extra current required to do a maneuver. If you set it too high it may protect the speed controller but burn out the motor. On the other hand the KR timer looks at RPMs and shouts it all down if the RPMs get too low or too high. In my mind this is a much more precise method of protection. The KR timer will work with a cheep speed controller. The nay sayers will say: "but then you don't have data logging". True but the KR timer will also work with the expensive speed controllers that does have data logging. If I could afford the expensive speed controllers with data logging I guess I would still use the KR timer because in my mind it provides more positive overload protection assuring my expensive speed controller would survive the dumb things I have been know to do.

PS I drive a Chevy. It was cheep and it gets me from point A to point B. Had a Ford once, it was also OK. Never had a Jeep but I think they look cool!

Lol love it!
Well put.

Now..... how about front mount vs rear mount? .......... What!?

Warren

Dean Pappas · « **Reply #27 on:** February 05, 2015, 04:27:22 PM »

Hi Gang,
You know, it really isn't that awfully long ago that the question was, "What is the setup that works?".
Now our embarrassment of riches is such that we can actually engage in brand-wars discussions.
Ain't it great!

Regards,
Dean P.

Igor Burger · « **Reply #28 on:** February 06, 2015, 01:43:39 AM »

The best solution for grass strike is prop which is not so tightly mounted, motor has stronger moment then prop on motor, so motor will rotate, prop will slide on axle, it will make trong screem but after all I will fly anyway and not loose my (usually official contest) flight ... helped many times :- ))) ... however it will work for crash, in that case motor off is good solution

MikeCoulombe · « **Reply #29 on:** February 06, 2015, 05:09:58 AM »

I know the KR Timer works, my first ecl flight last season I wandered too close to the trees and took a hit on the outboard wing.
The system shut down just as it should have.
Converted Tanager
KR Timer Ver-2,
Castle Ice 50 esc,
PropDrive 35-42 1000kv,
700w. APC 12x6 f2b prop,
around 7400 rpm on 55ft 5.3 second laps,
for the beginning flights I am using zippy 2200 3s 2minute flights.

Dan Bregar · « **Reply #30 on:** February 06, 2015, 11:54:32 AM »

There seems to be a few guys out there who believe that using a hubin timer with a Castle ESC will not give protection from inadvertant prop strikes. And my personal experience after using this combination for four seasons of flying more than 400 flights with two different airplane combo's, and numerous prop strikes has shown me there is no issue. Flying off of grass which is my normal, has netted me 3-4 prop strikes per flying season, where for what ever reason, (read pilot error) I have grabbed a bunch of ground during take off and suffered no ill effects. My worst case was last season at the Akron contest where due to my poor posistioning of the airplane relative to the wind, the tail came way up and the nose down, grabbing a bunch of asphalt with the prop. I barely recovered it to fly my pattern, but upon landing saw that the 12" dia. prop was now only 11 1/4" dia.. So I have to disagree with you guys, cause I have never burned up an ESC from this scenario and have tested this situation thoroughly. My .02 cents.

Paul Walker · « **Reply #31 on:** February 16, 2015, 06:56:17 PM »

Quote from: Igor Burger on February 06, 2015, 01:43:39 AM

The best solution for grass strike is prop which is not so tightly mounted, motor has stronger moment then prop on motor, so motor will rotate, prop will slide on axle, it will make trong screem but after all I will fly anyway and not loose my (usually official contest) flight ... helped many times :- ))) ... however it will work for crash, in that case motor off is good solution

I used to do that until I had the prop and spinner come off in a square eight during a practice flight at GSSC a few years ago. I recently tested my Igor system and found that with a ground strike on grass, it shut down immediately.

Tim Wescott · « **Reply #32 on:** February 16, 2015, 07:51:48 PM »

Quote from: Paul Walker on February 16, 2015, 06:56:17 PM

I used to do that until I had the prop and spinner come off in a square eight during a practice flight at GSSC a few years ago. I recently tested my Igor system and found that with a ground strike on grass, it shut down immediately.

The Igor timer is one-way, so that's a function of the Jeti SPIN ESC.

It's good to know that somebody does their ESCs right.

Igor Burger · « **Reply #33 on:** February 17, 2015, 12:18:05 AM »

Right, my timer does not have any of those features, everything is in ESC, it has 4 types of protection: overcurrent, undervoltage, commutation, temperature. All of those 4 can cause motor stop in case of prop strike, however it is protection of ESC, not motor or battery, so for example current limit is not adjustable, it depends on ESC type and it is far over ESC rate, so for example overloaded motor (too large prop) will cause thermal cut off earlier then overcurrent.

Voltage protection is ususlay set to 2.9V but we all use it at 3.2V (max) just to switch off earlier in case of crash, it is necessary especially on indoors, which use rubber prop saver, so overcurrent or commutation error does not happen after crash.

Igor Burger · « **Reply #34 on:** February 17, 2015, 12:19:46 AM »

Quote from: Paul Walker on February 16, 2015, 06:56:17 PM

I used to do that until I had the prop and spinner come off in a square eight during a practice flight at GSSC a few years ago.

Was it pusher? :- )))

Paul Walker · « **Reply #35 on:** February 17, 2015, 11:40:20 AM »

Quote from: Igor Burger on February 17, 2015, 12:19:46 AM

Was it pusher? :- )))

No, it was a 11" *5.5" 3 blade!!!
Standard "tractor" prop.

Quite the surprise to me when it happened.

Igor Burger · « **Reply #36 on:** February 17, 2015, 12:25:48 PM »

hmm ... really strange

Author Topic: Timer/ESC with over amp protection i.e. stop motor due to a hard prop strike (Read 9537 times)

Eric Viglione