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Author Topic: Saito 62 vs Saito 72  (Read 2067 times)

Offline Russell Graves

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Saito 62 vs Saito 72
« on: September 24, 2022, 09:44:06 AM »
I am starting construction on a 60-size stunter. I'm making a Blue Max Eternal from RSM Distribution. It's for F2B and AMA Precision Aerobatics competitions. It's got a wingspan of 60 inches (152 cm) and wing area of 679 inches (1725 cm). The engines recommended are .61 - .76.

I am trying to determine the best 4-stroke motor for this project. I am deciding between the Saito .62 and the Saito .72. I want the motor to pull the plane very strong in heavy wind conditions. Is the Saito 72 just too much power for this plane? What are your thoughts? Thanks!
« Last Edit: September 24, 2022, 11:16:51 AM by Russell Graves »

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Saito 62 vs Saito 72
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2022, 04:49:33 PM »
Russell,
You can NEVER have too much POWER. The trade-off is weight and I believe the 72 is almost 1.5 - 3oz lighter than the 65 with stock muffler. Go with the 72 adjust the venturi bore and prop size (it can take rather wide prop blades) to control the power. You can also run 10% nitro rather than 15% (save some $) to further control power.

Best,   DennisT
« Last Edit: December 17, 2022, 05:45:01 PM by Dennis Toth »

Offline Russell Graves

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Re: Saito 62 vs Saito 72
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2022, 06:05:53 PM »
It looks like the 72 (not made any more) is about 2 ounces heavier than the 62 (currently made). There must be some people with experience using either of these two motors on a 60-size stunter (60 inch wingspan with around 679 square inches), and could give their opinion if the 62 has enough power for this size plane. I read that the 72 is a BEAST and is run at less than full power. If that is the case, I'd rather get the 62 and run it closer to full power and save the 2 ounces on the nose.

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Saito 62 vs Saito 72
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2022, 09:22:53 PM »
It looks like the 72 (not made any more) is about 2 ounces heavier than the 62 (currently made). There must be some people with experience using either of these two motors on a 60-size stunter (60 inch wingspan with around 679 square inches), and could give their opinion if the 62 has enough power for this size plane. I read that the 72 is a BEAST and is run at less than full power. If that is the case, I'd rather get the 62 and run it closer to full power and save the 2 ounces on the nose.

   Hi Russell;
     Have you ever run a four stroke engine before? Do you already fly C/L stunt?  I have a Top Flite Score that is about the size that you are looking at, and it is powered by a Saito.56. This is a pretty nice combination, and it was my introduction to operating and flying four strokes for C/L stunt. I messed with it for about 3 flying seasons, and got everything but what I wanted out of the airplane, so I put it aside. Then I read some stuff by Bob Reeves and another gentleman whose name escapes my now, and I figured out I had been approaching things the wrong way. I finally realized that even with as long as I have been flying stunt in competition (about 30 years at that point in time ) I needed to completely forget and disregard everything I knew about operating engines and props for flying stunt because it is completely different for a four stroke. It is a completely different kind of power, a kind of pulsing power, and you can not operate them like you would a two stroke. There two little things on them called push rods for the valves that just don't like to rev very high and won't take much abuse! I was lucky in that I was able to talk with Gilbert Berringer from France at the Oshkosh Air Venture Convention and he told me a bit about his set ups, and he was one of the first to really successfully fly four strokes on the F2B world. It's a very interesting type of power and I liked it once I got things figured out. Four strokes are all about fuel draw, and a good hot plug. I found that they do not like uniflow tanks, so just learn to set things so that your lap time gets a bit faster near the end, but it hasn't been much of a deal breaker for me. The Bob Reeves set up is a low RPM deal, and you use 6 and 7 inch pitch props, on occasion you can drop down to 5 inch pitch if the model is light enough, but that is difficult. What I found out from Bob Reeves and Gilbert Berringer is that you want as small a venturi that you can get. Berringer told me he generally runs about 6mm and smaller. Bob Reeves adapted the idea of adding a nylon screw to the venturi to adjust the choke area and in combination with the needle valve makes a set up that runs in the range of 8000 to 8500 RPM. And for fuel, I always run Powermaster YS-20-20 fuel, and use anywhere between 3.5 to 4 ounces for the pattern and muffler pressure is a must.. Props are 13-6 and 13-7. The Score weighs in around 70 or 71 ounces and the .56 handles it with ease and is more than enough for me. With a little adjustment I can make it pull your arm off but it won't fly a very good pattern that way! I like it to fly a 5.3 lap timeon about 65 foot lines and am pretty comfortable with it now and have done respectably well in contest with it in the Expert class. Like I said, I find it an interesting and fun powerplant, but I'm not selling my Supertiger's any time soon! I find ST.60s pretty interesting and fun for the same reason, but don't limit myself to those exclusively. If you have to build the model yet, I think you are on the right track in considering the Saito .62. It is pretty much the same size and weight as the .56 is. With the C/L version you get a choice of venturis I think, and can just start with the smallest one. I would spend as much time as you can reading this four stroke section on anything you can find about the Saito .56 and the .62. If you haven't run any four strokes before, it will be an eye opener for you. They are very quiet, just do not make much noise. If you have been flying two strokes for any length of time, you equate power with a certain type of noise and sound level in your mind, and you ain't gonna find that with a four stroke!! That is not to scare you off of them, just to prepare you for it. It's actually kind of neat. The engine does not break at all, but runs, when things are right, in a steady monotonous tone. The engine makes it's power from gobs of torque, and running the YS 20-20 fuel let you open the needle a lot so it gets the fuel it needs to make that power. With the Bob Reeves method, things are very adjustable. Go the the Glue Dobbers site and down load his stuff and study it and by the time you get the model built, you should have everything straight in your mind. I didn't fly any of my other two stroke models for as couple of years after I got mine squared away and never had a bad run during that time. I hung mine on the wall because the covering was starting to come off, and it needs a recover job, which it will get this winter, then back into some action next year. I am not familiar with the model you are building, but even with the Saito .62 or .56, I would consider shortening the nose a bit to compensate for the engine weight, if you think you need to. If it's intended for a tuned pip engine with ball bearings and such, you may want to compare the engine weights and figure from there if shortening the nose will be required. I would make sure that you still have room for a 6 ounce tank, just to be safe. Good luck with the model and have fun.
  Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee
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AMA 480405 (American Motorcyclist Association)

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Saito 62 vs Saito 72
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2022, 07:11:43 AM »
Looking on the Model Engine Test site (http://sceptreflight.com/Model%20Engine%20Tests/Index.html) the Saito 56 is 15.5oz the 72 is 16.5oz. They don't have the 62. I know and ounce is an ounce but, there is no substitute for displacement. I would say having flown 4 strokes, I think you could run the 72 with a bit more blade width than the 56 and since it is a more or less constant speed run (very much like diesel) take advantage for the extra torque the 72 has, use a small venturi for stronger fuel draw and it will pull really good in windy conditions which is where some of the 4 strokes have challenges.

Best,   DennisT

Offline Mike Alimov

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Re: Saito 62 vs Saito 72
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2022, 07:02:56 PM »
I've used both the Saito 62 and the 72. I think the 62 is plenty of power for the Blue Max. Master Airscrew 12-6 3-blade prop, 10% nitro, about 8500-8700 rpm.

Offline Russell Graves

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Re: Saito 62 vs Saito 72
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2022, 07:06:36 PM »
Thanks Dennis, Dan, and Mike for your replies. I am seeing if I can get a used Saito 72 from a person at the local flying field, otherwise I will order the new Saito 62.

I will give a little bit more information about me (that Dan was asking about). I have been flying control-line combat since I was a kid. I'm 61. I flew some stunt planes 25 - 30 years ago. I was at the first couple of Vintage Stunt Championships when it was in Los Angeles. I was at a big contest this summer and spent some free time at the stunt circle. I got inspired to try it again (without giving up combat). Then I saw the video about the crash of the control-line Red Barron, and that got me hooked on a 4-stroke. That pulsing sound is music to my ears! It reminds me of a V-Twin Harley or an L-Twin Ducati, as opposed to an inline 4 cylinder of a sport bike. I had a Harley and a Ducati for that reason. I drive a car with that kind of pulsing power too, and I love it.

Dan thanks for all the info. I am in the process of gathering information so I can have the right approach and learn as I go. It will be an interesting project to work on. I want the plane and motor to be good enough to possibly enter an Expert PA contest someday. To me, combat is the pursuit of the win, in a competitive fun exciting adrenaline-filled match, whereas stunt is the pursuit of perfection, in an artistic and creative expression. Both pursuits are interesting to me.

Having flown so much F2d Combat, I am used to thinking in grams. I can tell the difference in 4 grams added to the nose of my combat plane. In stunt it seems like people don't think in grams, they think in ounces. So my original question of the 62 versus the 72 is not too relevant because a couple of extra ounces on the nose isn't too much in the overall big picture, especially if I can move the nose back a little bit when building the plane.

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Saito 62 vs Saito 72
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2022, 09:05:04 PM »
Thanks Dennis, Dan, and Mike for your replies. I am seeing if I can get a used Saito 72 from a person at the local flying field, otherwise I will order the new Saito 62.

I will give a little bit more information about me (that Dan was asking about). I have been flying control-line combat since I was a kid. I'm 61. I flew some stunt planes 25 - 30 years ago. I was at the first couple of Vintage Stunt Championships when it was in Los Angeles. I was at a big contest this summer and spent some free time at the stunt circle. I got inspired to try it again (without giving up combat). Then I saw the video about the crash of the control-line Red Barron, and that got me hooked on a 4-stroke. That pulsing sound is music to my ears! It reminds me of a V-Twin Harley or an L-Twin Ducati, as opposed to an inline 4 cylinder of a sport bike. I had a Harley and a Ducati for that reason. I drive a car with that kind of pulsing power too, and I love it.

Dan thanks for all the info. I am in the process of gathering information so I can have the right approach and learn as I go. It will be an interesting project to work on. I want the plane and motor to be good enough to possibly enter an Expert PA contest someday. To me, combat is the pursuit of the win, in a competitive fun exciting adrenaline-filled match, whereas stunt is the pursuit of perfection, in an artistic and creative expression. Both pursuits are interesting to me.

Having flown so much F2d Combat, I am used to thinking in grams. I can tell the difference in 4 grams added to the nose of my combat plane. In stunt it seems like people don't think in grams, they think in ounces. So my original question of the 62 versus the 72 is not too relevant because a couple of extra ounces on the nose isn't too much in the overall big picture, especially if I can move the nose back a little bit when building the plane.

  Hi Russell;
     Well since you are used to dealing in grams, keep counting them as there are places in a stunt model where a few grams can make a difference ! Flying stunt has it's moments where the adrenalin can get to really pumping! Some may think that it takes more finesse than combat and while I have never flown combat competitively, I have been around it quite a bit and seen a lot of matches and I think it has it's own kind of finesse. We have several former combat guys flying stunt to great success over the years, so you are among good company. I am not familiar with the airplane you are looking at building but I think you have the experience that it takes to figure out the nose moment. What got me hooked on trying 4 strokes was taking a flight on Keith Sandberg's Legacy at the SIG contest several years ago. Keith used an R/C version of the Saito.56 with the throttle closed down to about 3/4 throttle and locked into place, and the only modification from the Brodak kit was shortening the nose 1 inch to compensate for the engine weight. The designer of the Blue Max is Kaz Minato of Japan, and he has a web site of products that he produces and sells, and if you can drop him a line he may have some good recommendations for a nose length. Kaz lived here in the USA for a while working for Honda and is a good dude! I looked up the Saito .62 on the factory web site, and like you said, they do not make the .72 any longer. It seems to have been replaced by an .82 I think, and there was a not in it's description that the engine mounts were the same as doe the .72, .62, and the .56, but I am really not too sure about that. The only .72 I have had in my hands was a long time ago but it seems it had a bigger crank case. Actually getting to measure each would be a great help. Just from my experience with the .56, I would cast a vote for the .62 if they still make it in a C/L version. That will just make set up and life in general easier for you I think. Compare the mufflers that come with each. The .56 I have came on a model I bought, and the guy that built it found an accessory muffler from Saito that was smaller and much lighter than what came with the engine at that time. If such a ting is still available, it would be well worth the extra expense in saving the nose weight. The muffler that comes with each engine is what may make the major difference in overall weight of each engine. Have fun with the project and check in with progress form time to time.
  Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee
AMA 28784
EAA  1038824
AMA 480405 (American Motorcyclist Association)

Online Brent Williams

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Re: Saito 62 vs Saito 72
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2022, 06:31:02 PM »
I watched the 62 turn the same prop at the same RPM on the test stand as the 72.  Impressive.
Laser-cut, "Ted Fancher Precision-Pro" Hard Point Handle Kits are available again.  PM for info.
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Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: Saito 62 vs Saito 72
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2022, 06:44:03 PM »
Lotta de strawlians used da Saitio's in Beringer based & other stuff ( Walker Mustang ) From the 56 etc UP .
Lotta 72s about . Primarily 72s in the end .

Id think the only real worry is when your turning the aeroplane around the prop . The Berringer Prop with the pitch thats goes way down as you go out seems to be neccesary .

Theres Carbon Copies around .

Holding these suckers for launch is a bit differant from a 2 stroke . HANG ON . the pull like billyo  , static .

just to emphisise a point ,  ( Beringer thingo Mod. )




« Last Edit: October 09, 2022, 09:30:57 PM by Air Ministry . »

Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: Saito 62 vs Saito 72
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2022, 09:53:09 PM »
Just found a better one of it , was wondering if it was Reg or Bruces . Think Bruce is Green & Gold . Same Satio set up .




Offline Robert Zambelli

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Re: Saito 62 vs Saito 72
« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2022, 09:26:10 AM »
When I was working in Milan, Italy a few years back, I connected with some CL flyers from Milan and Monza.
Many of their top contenders were using four-stroke engines.
The names I remember are Clemente Cappi, Massimo Semmoli, Alberto Maggi and Luciano Campostello. I’m sure there were others.
As I recall, the OS Surpass seemed to be the engine of choice, at least with Alberto and Luciano.
The runs I witnessed were flawless, to say the least.
Luciano won the European championships a number of times with a Surpass 48 powered Falco biplane and a Webra 60 powered monoplane.
These gents were absolute wizards with four-stroke engines.

Bob Z.

Offline Robert Zambelli

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Re: Saito 62 vs Saito 72
« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2022, 01:58:01 PM »
Sorry for my previous post - I should have realized that this topic was about SAITO engines.
Bob Z.


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