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Engine basics => Four strokes only => Topic started by: proparc on July 26, 2013, 12:38:47 PM
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Our own Chip Hyde,(he is now,he flies stunt) has just won F3A at the 2013 Nats with YS 4 stroke power. As you all know, (you all do don't you!) Chip had stated that he was returning to 4 stroke power, in light of the consistent clock cleaning being taken at the Worlds with the supercharged pumpers. It appears that getting back on board is paying off for Chip already.
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Which YS is he running?
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Which YS is he running?
YS 175
Randy
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YS were some of my favorite engines in R/C. I think that some in C/L would not like to foot the bill for that engine
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Did I hear his new CL stunt plane uses a YS?
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Did I hear his new CL stunt plane uses a YS?
Yes it does, he has tried many engines, motors IC EL and think the YS 70 is best so far
Randy
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Hi Randy;
Got any insight into what his basic set up is, like prop diameter, pitch, RPM and intake specs? I have been playing with some four strokes, and just looking for base line info to compare with.
Thanks a lot,
Dan McEntee
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Doesn't YS use a supercharger?
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Hi Randy;
Got any insight into what his basic set up is, like prop diameter, pitch, RPM and intake specs? I have been playing with some four strokes, and just looking for base line info to compare with.
Thanks a lot,
Dan McEntee
Itr is still a new setup but je used a 14 x 6, he may wind up with a 13.3 or 13 x 5 or 5.6 prop. He is using 64 ft lines now but is cutting longer ones to go to near full 70 feet. 65 or 66 foot ones
His intake is getting smaller, and RPMs will be whatever gets the speed the airframe likes, near 82 to 8400 RPms
Remember this is a very powerful light 4 stroke
Randy
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Doesn't YS use a supercharger?
Yep !
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His intake is getting smaller, and RPMs will be whatever gets the speed the airframe likes, near 82 to 8400 RPms
Randy
y1 Heard that before someplace..
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If he's successful with it, he will have the most powerful motor in F2B hands down! The YS 70 is considerably more powerful than my Saito 72,(which I am flying again by the way). I have video,( I have video of everything) of Windy testing the YS.
I like people that can make things work that others can't. Chip will be the first one to tame the 70 for stunt. I could not make the YS hand start consistently,(you have to "spool up" the compressor) so, I bailed on it.
Correction, it was the YS63 that I tested-the forerunner of the YS70.
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"If he's successful with it, he will have the most powerful motor in F2B hands down! The YS 70 is considerably more powerful than my Saito 72,(which I am flying again by the way). I have video,( I have video of everything) of Windy testing the YS. "
Actually he won't, Remember this is a Super Charged beast, and in order to use that kind of power, you need to do the same as with a PA engine, you must cut the HP
down drastically . If he used the motor as setup like it is from the factory he would need to use something like a 15 x 3.5 pitch prop, this would make for unbelievable noise and would howl. Not to mention then GP problems it would cause .
In converting one of these over to CL you need to make a venturie that fits what type of run you will need to have, so it will be smaller than a RC setup naturally.
Then you can run between a 5 and 6 pitch prop.
He could also use this engine with a 13 inch 3 blade with 4.5 pitch up around 10,00 RPMs and get a great running setup, 3 blades are quieter and have less GP, but those props are hard to come by now.
You are right about the motor being so much more powerful than the Saito, but it can't be used in CL in that configuration effectively
I also understand it is even lighter than the 63 YS.
Randy
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Actually he won't, Remember this is a Super Charged beast, and in order to use that kind of power, you need to do the same as with a PA engine, you must cut the HP
down drastically . If he used the motor as setup like it is from the factory he would need to use something like a 15 x 3.5 pitch prop, this would make for unbelievable noise and would howl. Not to mention then GP problems it would cause .
Randy
You are ABSOLUTELY right Randy. I stated this before, our "speed limit" doesn't allow us to get all the juice out of these powerful motors because, we have to choke them down to run at 55mph. I really should have used the statement "most potential power". y1
Windy had to significantly bring down the available power in his 4 stroke 91 powered Hawker Typhoon to get it to work in stunt. Still had incredible grunt but, nothing close to what it could do in RC applications.
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Will the YS survive 10,000 rpm? Banjock destroyed 2 or 3 Saito 72s running rpm like that.
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Will the YS survive 10,000 rpm? Banjock destroyed 2 or 3 Saito 72s running rpm like that.
I had mine running 10,450 just last Sunday. But, went back to 10,100,my normal launch speed. It's been running at that rpm virtually all of it's life.
S.O.P. for Saito's even in the manual, is to setup 500 below peak. Find your peak RPM for your fuel plug etc., then back off 500 RPM-that's your max flight peak. Once broken in, 2000 rpm is your MAX low. So, 2000 rpm max low, 500 rpm below peak,max high. Your Saito should live it's entire operating life there.
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Will the YS survive 10,000 rpm? Banjock destroyed 2 or 3 Saito 72s running rpm like that.
Yes it will, easy, and most Saitos do to, Gordan ran his at over 10,000 RPMs for a long time. You just want to stay away from over lean when running high RPMs, that is where most all of the failures occur , Remember When 4 strokes go lean, they can really get extremely hot ! I have seen the metal exhaust headers melted off of them in over lean situations.
Randy
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You are ABSOLUTELY right Randy. I stated this before, our "speed limit" doesn't allow us to get all the juice out of these powerful motors because, we have to choke them down to run at 55mph. I really should have used the statement "most potential power". y1
Windy had to significantly bring down the available power in his 4 stroke 91 powered Hawker Typhoon to get it to work in stunt. Still had incredible grunt but, nothing close to what it could do in RC applications.
Hello everyone. I really appreciate the congrats when this thread originally started, thank you very much. It had been 13 years since I have won a F3A Nationals and even though my thoughts were on Stunt I had to try and get rid of the certain monkey that was on my back.
As some of you noticed right away I went back to glow for F3A because of its weight and performance advantages. At this time it is literally impossible to compete against an IC (YS) no matter who you are. Not to mention the patterns just keep getting tougher as do the conditions it seems.
I origanlly called YS in 2012 and told them what I was thinking as far as F3a for this year so we reunited and have had a blast ever since. However I had the biggest enternal struggles I ever have had with anything to get myself to really make the switch. Just the airframes were $12,000 and I had no Fuel Pump, Starter, Glow Driver, Glow Plugs, Fuel, Field Stand, Headers, Pipes, Fuel Dots, Tanks etc.
The planes arrived late April as did most of the other stuff and I spent the next few days rigging. I drove up to the Kimbros place and they were nice enough to walk me through their SYSTEM and assured me if it were followed its almost cheating . Meaning no generators, charge boxes, adaptors, etc. I did not believe them for a minute I know how the 160's ran and actually had myself talked into retiring from comp. at the first sign of problems.
Well I have now won the nationals in the 4th decade, for the 13th time, and by the largest margin of victory anyone can remember. I love flying F3A again and my plane is as tight as it was on flight one almost 300 flights later. I have had 3 flights that it quit, each one was my fault the engine(s) have not missed a beat and have not had even a single part failure. That was the 175 DZ and they just released the 185 which is 15% more power, its quieter, smoother, and get this it get double the fuel mileage I did last year. Almost Done... Did I mention that I used one paper towel a day after 6-10 flights and the engine compartment is as clean as it was when it arrived.
If that is the horrible experiences I am going to need to struggle through due to flying glow then sign me up.
Now on to the CL (Important) Stuff. I have watched as many of you guys fly as I can every chance I get. I have also become an avid reader to try and better understand with these types of models and flown everything I have been able to get my hands on for just over a year, not to mention countless hours talking to guys like Bob H. Ray Ferkins, Randy Smith, Bob Whitely, Kieth Trostle, Kirk M.and so on. I have come to the conclusion if I did that for the next 15 years I might only be about 15 years behind.
I decided to try the 4 stroke in CL based off the result from F3A in part, but I think we can really have a truly optimized 4 cycle that is a CL motor throughout not a bunch of band aids on a RC engine. It seems like only yesterday when Richard Verano (YS USA) Called Tetsuo Yamada (YS JAPAN and told him I had just won the F3A nats and would like them to make a 70 DZ for CL. His w answer was "Richard you gotta tell him we don't know anything about it" I told Richard neither do I but I have met some really incredible modelers that do and I have there phone #'s.
That was about a month ago and since then I picked up an awesome plane from Kirk, and my dad figured out how to build me a HYDE mount that the attaches to the existing maple beams and has reduced the vibration to a very acceptable level. I ordered every APC prop that might even be close, Cool Power has got the Fuel Formulas with far lower nitro content, and then Randy was the final piece of the puzzle. (Yes he knows a great deal about 4 strokes as well)
All of that got me to the point where I actually flew this combination in a short demo last weekend that had Tetsuo Yamada and Richard Verano in attendance. I did a 3 minute flight and it was a huge success. That's when the 81 year old Mr. Yamada, (The 4 cycle Mastermind) decided to build several versions that are not RC conversions but true CL Stunt Engines from the ground up.
Please do not be turned off by this type of effort from the Factory, they are very aware of the price of CL engines and are not going to stray from that. One version will be signifigently less and I know they have high hopes for it.
As far as the consistency problem (I have only read about this) I truly believe that these engines will not change for no reason. If the needle on a YS changes you better just shut it off there is a problem. Normally its a simple as a pinhole in one of the fuel lines.
Anyhow that's about all I have right now and I really wish I had a video to put up but I have not had my flying buddy Ray Ferkins around during this entire ordeal and its hard enough to fly and record lap times. lol Ray did finally get back yesterday and we went flying for the first time. I was worried he was going to tell me something I really didn't want to hear, but instead, he told me to take care of that thing.
I will post any findings that I think might be stuff people are interested in and I cannot wait until we get a couple more engines in and out to test by some of you guys that know what you doing. F3A was never this stressful <G>
Chip
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Thanks for the report on what you guys are up to with the engines and congrats on your latest win!
I look forward to more reports on the R&D side of these YS motors.
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A long time ago on stunt circle far far away,(well only 4 miles from my house) I tried a YS 63. This was before or just about the time Pat Johnston came up with his manifold design for the Saito 56/72. UHP had not started producing them yet. 4s were all I could think about and the YS was/is the big gun, even in a little package like the 63. The DZ 140, I think, was the motor of choice back then for the non-tethered guys. I had my eye on the 63 for a while and I had to have one to try out. I was warned it would be too powerful and not really work for our application. I heard their warnings but this is a hobby and having fun is the goal. I had some fun with this thing!
Upon inspection it was clear this was top of the line stuff. It is a supercharged motor. There is a diaphragm pump built into the back plate that is triggered by the crank shaft rotation. The carb is built into the back plate as well. There is a regulator built into the case up at the front running off the cam shaft. The fuel system ran on a Hays clunk tank with a one way valve that could hold the constant pressure. I also bought a Hitori pipe for it. (If you are gonna try it why not go all out right?) I broke it in per the manufacturer’s directions. As I do on all my engines.
The test bed was a Tom Dixon Time Machine derivative donated by Brad Walker. This was a really good flying plane on his ST 60. First flights were on the muffler and every fast. One was sub 4 second lap times!! Lucky for me I was short taking it at the start! It wanted to run and run and run. It’s really powerful like it has a second gear. When it gets up on it like a 2s there is no stopping it!! We were using PowerMaster YS 20/20 fuel. Great stuff! The 20% nitro made it run so smooth. The Saitos love it too and they stay nice and cool on it. Wiring the carb open and running it rich was not an option. I am not a machinist so making a venturi for it while keeping the supercharger intact wasn’t an option. I rigged up this little needle linkage using some ball links where I could close the carb with an OS needle and right next to was the mix needle. I could adjust it while it was running. I could fine tune both settings at start up like we do with our standard needle on a venture setup. It worked pretty well. I started to get some flights on it. But I could never get it slow enough. This was when I was consistently running 5.8 lap times and this was its best at about 4.9-5.0.
Next I added in the Hitori pipe. Now it really started to show its prowess. I was able to get more consistent flights with it and the motor was very strong. I could run it from 12000 rpms down to 7500 and it was solid everywhere but I could never get a prop rpm combo AND speed I really liked. The carb linkage worked but not like a venturi would have. From flight to flight it just wasn’t consistent enough. I had to go through and tune every time. It was not set it and forget it. I am certain a lot of that was me and some of it was the application I was trying to do with that motor.
One of the cool things about this motor was the run out. When it would go full lean it would light up and go for about ¾ of a lap. It sounded like a bomber flying by. It was awesome! After a long while with it I decided to move on from the YS and sold my setup to an RC guy on Ebay. He told me later he loved it and it was a really solid engine.
Fast Forward 2013 Nats top 5 flyoff is over, I finished 2nd to the MAN, and the pattern guys are on the runway getting some practice. We head down to check out them and their cool planes. We talked briefly with a young guy flying a Bi Plane with very similar lines to what Chip has in the photo above and he said he was running the YS 175. He said it was a no brainer for him. There was one in the air at the time, so quiet and smooth and STRONG! These planes are huge and the motors just power on through. It is easy to see why someone would want to pursue YS as their engine of choice.
If Chip can get them to put a CL version on the market I will have to get one for my stable as well. Run it or not, I want one!! Put me on the list!!
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Randy, Chip, YS. That some SERIOUS combination! To have the stunt qualities and consistency of a Randy motor and the power and craftsmanship of a YS! Chip, you are a genius!
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Below is a link to the first flight yesterday with a 3 blade 13.5 x 6 prop. It is only a 4 minute flight due to the small 5.5 ounce tank and still having to run so rich. Today I am going to restrict the carb some more and hopefully my 10% will be in and I think we will be pretty close. This is the RC engine not the new version
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=585760424814751&l=78400986297840897
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Below is a link to the first flight yesterday with a 3 blade 13.5 x 6 prop. It is only a 4 minute flight due to the small 5.5 ounce tank and still having to run so rich. Today I am going to restrict the carb some more and hopefully my 10% will be in and I think we will be pretty close. This is the RC engine not the new version
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=585760424814751&l=78400986297840897
Hey, Chip, whatever happened to you moving to our neck of the woods?
Brett
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Hey, Chip, whatever happened to you moving to our neck of the woods?
Brett
I actually moved up there right after I spoke to you in Tucson. The trouble was the company I was working for then started sending me to So. Cal every week and they did not like paying all the travel for me to be up there 2 or 3 days a week. So I moved back to Bakersfield, its pretty much in the middle.
I wanted to hook up with you guys to fly but it was cold and windy, at least in San Jose where I was so I didn't think too much was going on.
See you at the Golden State Champs in a couple weeks. I won't be able to get there until Saturday afternoon due to a RC show I have a demo to fly at but I will be there.
C
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Hi Chip,
Happy to see you playing with 4 strokes, I've known for a long time they were a viable alternate to piped engines. I think the reason they haven't really taken off is early attempts didn't work out so well then the move to electric happened about the same time we finally figured out how to make them work.
Be interesting to see how the final setup for the YS compairs to what works on the Saito, please keep us updated.
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See you at the Golden State Champs in a couple weeks. I won't be able to get there until Saturday afternoon due to a RC show I have a demo to fly at but I will be there.
Good deal! That's sort of what Golden State is about, it used to be called the North-South meet.
Brett
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Was that demo flight at the S.A.M. site east of Sacramento off of Florin rd. and eaglesnest?
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Was that demo flight at the S.A.M. site east of Sacramento off of Florin rd. and eaglesnest?
No, actually the demo is at the Huckfest in Lodi Ca.
C
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The back ground looked similar, also I heard from a coworker that races his planes at the S.A.M. site that an out of towner did a CL demo with a ys powered plane. Hmmm.
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I am sorry I misunderstood. Yes I flew it at the SAMs warbird race.
C
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I was told everyone of those guys at the S.A.M. site were nervous as pigs in Georgia (or is that sheep in Wyoming). They wanted to duck for cover when the plane would come back around toward them. And thought the plane was going to splat into the tarmac with the low pullouts. I have been trying to get a couple of them to come out to the field in Davis to check out the contests and to give it a go on a regular weekend.
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Check out this flight by Chip back in 1987. Taking care of business even back then!! y1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHUDIsCSbqQ&feature=youtu.be
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Chip now has 2 YS engines built for C/L use which are now being tested for evaluation. We should be hearing from him in the next few weeks as to what the results are. :)
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I watched a couple of flights on his test bed plane at the Golden State Stunt Contest today. Very nice set up.
Sounds like YS is really working with him to produce a CL Stunt four stroke. I will let Chip give the details but
it appears the weight is reduced quite a bit ,and they are set up to run at lower RPMs.Very nice smooth sound.
This will be interesting to see the final results. His other airplane has a PA .75 but we can't get them anymore!
Did I say this guy also can really fly well? I think this is a name you will hear about in the future in CL
Stunt. I think that a couple of world champs will be test flying his set up tomorrow and giving their feedback.
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I had the privilege of meeting Chip this evening and chatting with him about the awesome YS. I look forward to seeing the two of them fly tomorrow.
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Anyone get a pic of the new YS??
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Anyone get a pic of the new YS??
No picture. I flew the airplane with it installed and I wouldn't dismiss the potential of the engine. Power certainly is not a problem, the carburetion was a little off on the two flights I saw. It's early on.
I suggested to Chip that he get in touch with Bob Reeves about what he has found, and in particular, the berringer-style venturi system.
Brett
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Totally convinced the mistake Saito made on the CL engines was not making the choke area adjustable. It isn't really rocket science and not difficult to do.
http://www.tulsacl.com/SaitoCarb.html
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No picture. I flew the airplane with it installed and I wouldn't dismiss the potential of the engine. Power certainly is not a problem, the carburetion was a little off on the two flights I saw. It's early on.
I suggested to Chip that he get in touch with Bob Reeves about what he has found, and in particular, the berringer-style venturi system.
Brett
Yeah you really cant go wrong with Bob's advice and instruction. I read his article again it's really good stuff.
Plus there is always the Pat Johnston manifold that worked so well for so many.
I was just curious if YS changed the case of the motor and lightened it up.
And how they built in a venturi with that suprcharger built into the back plate??
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Anyone get a pic of the new YS??
YS 70 CL proto
Randy
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Totally convinced the mistake Saito made on the CL engines was not making the choke area adjustable. It isn't really rocket science and not difficult to do.
http://www.tulsacl.com/SaitoCarb.html
The CL Saitos should all have had "BR" carbs.
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YS 70 CL proto
Randy
What is the weight on that bad boy?
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Bought a Smoothie ARF. Powered it with a Saito 40 from Ebay. Put a Bob Reeves modified carburetor on it. First flight was a bit too fast, and turned in the choke screw1 turn. Better but still too fast. Another turn and it was clicking off 5.3 laps on 60' lines with plenty of vertical power. Not sensitive to needle valve settings either.
Joe
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Do not quote me on this I but I asked Chip how much the C/L version weighed and I believe he said 13 oz. I will let him confirm. Remember this is a C/L version and there are changes made from the original 70
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What is the weight on that bad boy?
Not settled yet but is around 15 ounces
Randy
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I wonder if he plans to try that Hitori Pipe on it? I tried one on mine and it was pretty freaking awesome!!
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Thought I would post this shot. Got it off the GSSC Forum. Clearly he's got the "pumper" in this one!
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Notice the big slug of tail weight on it too.
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Notice the big slug of tail weight on it too.
My Saito 72 weighs about a 1/4 pound more than that and it takes of SERIOUS business. Chips power to weight ratio on that motor is smoking good!