Design > Engineering board
Twisted wing panel with correction tab - loss of lift?
Chuck_Smith:
--- Quote from: Serge_Krauss on March 20, 2021, 01:16:22 PM ---Hi, Chuck -
Wow, I envy you for having been able to look in on that project! When I saw the Ho IX (8-229) at Silver Hill (1980's), it was in awful shape and getting no TLC. 'glad to hear some version of it will fly again. My material indicates that the Ho. IX V-2 seemed to fly well, until one was carelessly flown and destroyed. Tailless aircraft do fit in some niches, especially now that fly-by-wire can make lethal versions safe, but they have often not fit assigned tasks. The Horten "bell-shaped" lift distribution might have let Northrop get by Mr. Symington with the bombers.
--- End quote ---
Northrop YB49 had two fatal flaws. First, the autopilot couldn't keep it stable enough in yaw for accurate bombing with the dumb bombs its era and
second, the B47 was MUCH faster and destroyed the speed records of the YB49.
Now Loyal Wingman, that's some interesting new tech.
Dan McEntee:
--- Quote from: Serge_Krauss on March 20, 2021, 01:16:22 PM ---Hi, Chuck -
Wow, I envy you for having been able to look in on that project! When I saw the Ho IX (8-229) at Silver Hill (1980's), it was in awful shape and getting no TLC. 'glad to hear some version of it will fly again. My material indicates that the Ho. IX V-2 seemed to fly well, until one was carelessly flown and destroyed. Tailless aircraft do fit in some niches, especially now that fly-by-wire can make lethal versions safe, but they have often not fit assigned tasks. The Horten "bell-shaped" lift distribution might have let Northrop get by Mr. Symington with the bombers.
--- End quote ---
I have always been fond of flying wings, and built gliders in that configuration as a kid, and hope to some more in retirement. I have read a little about how hard Sen. Stuart Symington worked to get the Northrop Flying Wing eliminated from the bomber competition in the early 50's. Some where in my collection of stuff is some newspaper clipping of the time that I found by accident in some books or magazines I bought. I need to find those again some time! Symington represented my area here in St. Louis, MO and as I remember it, Symington fought hard for Convair because a fledgling little aircraft manufacturer back home in St. Louis called McDonnell Aircraft was a subcontractor for Convair in those days. Then when the B-36 was chosen, he went as far as to make sure that ALL of the existing YB-49 airframes be destroyed so they could never fly again. I understand that there was a lot of back room dealings and hard nosed politicking going on about that. i also saw an interesting interview with Bob Cardenas, who I think was chief test pilot on the YB-49 at the time. After making a record setting cross country flight from California to Washington DC, the crew left the aircraft alone and unguarded to attend some ceremonies and a dinner. They were to fly back the California and attempt to break their own record as a demonstration of the aircrafts efficiency. Shortly after take off they developed some engine problems and upon making an emergency landing, discovered some empty oil tanks. He stopped short of claiming sabotage, but said there was no real reason for the tanks to be dry, and that he regretted leaving the airplane alone in Washington! I think all that stuff could make a great movie plot!
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
Chuck_Smith:
--- Quote from: Dan McEntee on March 21, 2021, 11:11:28 PM --- I have always been fond of flying wings, and built gliders in that configuration as a kid, and hope to some more in retirement. I have read a little about how hard Sen. Stuart Symington worked to get the Northrop Flying Wing eliminated from the bomber competition in the early 50's. Some where in my collection of stuff is some newspaper clipping of the time that I found by accident in some books or magazines I bought. I need to find those again some time! Symington represented my area here in St. Louis, MO and as I remember it, Symington fought hard for Convair because a fledgling little aircraft manufacturer back home in St. Louis called McDonnell Aircraft was a subcontractor for Convair in those days. Then when the B-36 was chosen, he went as far as to make sure that ALL of the existing YB-49 airframes be destroyed so they could never fly again. I understand that there was a lot of back room dealings and hard nosed politicking going on about that. i also saw an interesting interview with Bob Cardenas, who I think was chief test pilot on the YB-49 at the time. After making a record setting cross country flight from California to Washington DC, the crew left the aircraft alone and unguarded to attend some ceremonies and a dinner. They were to fly back the California and attempt to break their own record as a demonstration of the aircrafts efficiency. Shortly after take off they developed some engine problems and upon making an emergency landing, discovered some empty oil tanks. He stopped short of claiming sabotage, but said there was no real reason for the tanks to be dry, and that he regretted leaving the airplane alone in Washington! I think all that stuff could make a great movie plot!
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
--- End quote ---
I've seen and read some of the interviews but in reality, the YB49 was a flawed concept and merely an attempt to keep the funding from the YB35 going as an interesting science experiment. There was no way that thick flying wing was going to be relevant in the jet age and transonic flight for bombers.
The B47 was 100mph faster and cruised at a higher speed than the YB49 could muster flat out. It was more stable and a better bomber. Heck, they were operational into the 70's.
And don't forget the B52 was coming down the pike in 1952. That's still the gold standard.
Even the B2 was only an experiment in low RCS and a symptom of the Reagan era love of throwing money at defense programs like Star Wars or the F117 (how long did they last?)
Serge_Krauss:
Thanks for the input, Dan. I knew about the efforts to get the B-36 chosen. I understand that it had many problems, but did not know/remember the conflicts of interest.
Chuck, thanks too. I would comment though that I don't see the lack of jet power as a "flaw," since the plane was developed to be implemented during the prop age and have a huge range at speeds near those of then current fighters. When development/contracts lagged and the war ended, the jet age caught up with them. Jets ruined the range advantage. The reason I mentioned the Horten lift distribution is that it could provide "pro-verse" yaw (I think that NASA's Al Bowers coined that term; I heard it first from him), which would have cured the yaw problems, perhaps at a drag penalty. I have read varied assessments of the seriousness of the yaw problem, some saying that it was minor. Pitch steadiness was addressed among Northrop's patents, and if these were not sufficient to have cured the problems (I read that they were still to be implemented), I wonder whether among the multitudinous Sperry patents there might have been a solution. Northrop patents in auto-stability devices were prominent, if I remember right without going through them.
phil c:
--- Quote from: Dennis Toth on March 01, 2021, 09:24:18 AM ---I acquired a ship that had the outboard wing panel with a built-in twist up. I added a tab/wedge under the outboard wing to level the wing. This worked but the ship seemed to be doing rather large loops (65 - 70deg ish). I was wondering if the area with the tab/wedge was just coming along for the ride and not contributing to carrying any weight through the maneuvers?
Best, DennisT
--- End quote ---
The description is a bit foggy. A "Twisted up" right wing usually refers to the trailing edge being higher than the leading edge, rolling the wing to the right.
You can't make a twisted wing into a straight wing with tabs. Small warps can be counteracted by putting a tab on the top of the left wingtip in this case making it have a better balance of lift.
The only way to really sort things out is to twist the right wing straight until it balances with the left wing. If it's already crashed. Build a new wing.
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