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Author Topic: How many g's?  (Read 23027 times)

Online Matt Colan

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How many g's?
« on: November 09, 2009, 07:25:27 PM »
How many G's does someone put on a plane during a pattern?  I was just watching a Red Bull Air Race and they go up to 12, but I figure a lot more (hey the plane's flying at 55mph, making a 10ft radius corner).

Anybody got an idea H^^
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Alan Hahn

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Re: How many g's?
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2009, 08:13:37 PM »
Since this is the engineering forum, we need the formula for acceleration for circular motion,

a=v2/r,

v being the velocity in m/s (54 mph ~24m/s), and r=radius of circle in meters. A 10 foot radius corner is about 3 meters, so in this case the acceleration is 192 m/s2.

Since  "g"=9.8 m/s2 (~10 m/s2), this means you are pulling about 19 g's in a 10 foot radius corner at 54 mph.

I will note that you can increase this by 1 g to 20 g's from level since at the first pull out you also have to fight gravity.

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: How many g's?
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2009, 09:22:40 PM »
I agree with your 20 G estimate for model airplanes.

But based on avaiton physiology taught in the USAF and personal expience in the T-38, I doubt the 12 G's for a man-carrying airplane.   7 or 8 is more like it.  Even with a G suit, 8 G's is a lot of G.  Maybe a Red Bull can spike up to 12 instantly before the airspeed bleeds off, but it can't be pulling 12 more than a fraction of a second, if that.
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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: How many g's?
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2009, 11:08:50 PM »
Hving just finished watching two episodes of the Red Bull Air races on my DVR tonight, they dont pull that G load very often, and I think it is sustained for a second or at most two. Typically when I see that , its on the pullout vertical , sort of an immelman or a half loop with a roll back to upright.
They do pull 11 much more frequently however, and last year one of the pilots was DQ'ed because he pulled 13.2 Gs for an extended period.
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Alan Hahn

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Re: How many g's?
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2009, 07:47:46 AM »
I thought the +12g rating on full scale aerobatic aircraft (like a Pitt's Special) was more to inspire confidence that the wings wouldn't fall off n1 than a rating that flying actually attained!

Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: How many g's?
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2009, 10:40:44 AM »
They actually have telemetry onboard, and during the high G manuevers they display in on the telecast. Most of the planes are Extra 540's as I recall, pretty amazing to watch.
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Online Matt Colan

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Re: How many g's?
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2009, 01:33:27 PM »
They actually have telemetry onboard, and during the high G manuevers they display in on the telecast. Most of the planes are Extra 540's as I recall, pretty amazing to watch.

Edge 540s actually, and an MXS are the planes they use.  They do spike 12g's occasionally but for only a split second.  I say those planes would make excellent looking stuntships without changing the actual layout of the airplane too much.

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Offline proparc

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Re: How many g's?
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2009, 02:36:24 PM »
Matt, I asked this question of Brett Buck a long time ago and he said something in the order of 25 gs + -. I agree with you, the Red Bull racers look like big stunt ships. They have been done to death in the RC world!!
Milton "Proparc" Graham

Offline Igor Burger

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Re: How many g's?
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2009, 03:51:25 PM »
A 10 foot radius corner is about 3 meters

Yes. I measured real radius and I found that tightest, but still controllable radius is 3.5 meters, and that number I use in all my claculations when I do new model.
Means your result 20g is probably highes possible and can be used as extreme.

Alan Hahn

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Re: How many g's?
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2009, 08:43:33 PM »
Yes. I measured real radius and I found that tightest, but still controllable radius is 3.5 meters, and that number I use in all my claculations when I do new model.
Means your result 20g is probably highes possible and can be used as extreme.

10 feet came from Matt's original question. I agree with you that it is probably about the best one can do at ~24 m/s. I have no clue how tight my squares are (I suspect much more than 10 feet!).

Offline L0U CRANE

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Re: How many g's?
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2009, 11:15:24 PM »
At some time, many, many years ago, in a far off universe and time(Sorry, that's Star Wars...)...

One, each: Netzeband, Wild Bill, studied the possibility - rather the impossibility - of doing an actual 5' radius turn in CLPA. (He got sidetracked on this and made it a crusade that distracted him from a few other things, as he will freely admit.)

He claims to have documented 'flash' loadings around 30g, for corners around 10' (~3m) radius. That's the number I've used, since I learned of it, in certain calculations I've been doing for a few decades... Actual 5' radius corners would require about 50g...

The idea of flash loadings needs some thought... Perhaps the sensors on the Red Bull aircraft have some ballistic inertia? If not (as I suspect), then they indicate 'flash' readings that may last one or two hundredths of a second, if that long. Our modern computing capabilities involve rapid processing rates. Who can say that the instrument sensors aren't 'sampling' many thousands of times per second in an age of muchos-1000's of thousands of processing actions per second in even cheap home computers?

Not long enough to cause impairment of the pilot, I sincerely hope. Could get tragic, otherwise...
\BEST\LOU

Alan Hahn

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Re: How many g's?
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2009, 08:09:14 AM »
Lou,
I am not sure what you mean by "flash" loadings.

If you are flying a 10 foot radius circle at 54 mph, then you need a centripetal force of 19.4 "g's". What the wings need to provide is that force + some part of gravity, depending on what part of the maneuver the plane is flying. So I just want to reiterate that the formula for centripetal acceleration for an object moving in a circle (or part of a circle)  is not up for discussion.

If you are getting 30 "g's" you must either be flying faster (no argument if you are) or are flying --at least instantaneously-- a smaller radii corner. Maybe that is coming from the first part of a "hammer" corner, where the plane rotates very fast then stalls out but then continues in a mushy 10 foot radius circle.




Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: How many g's?
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2009, 09:54:53 AM »
Lou,
they have a readout, it appears fairly real time responsive. IOW there is no lag anywhere in the manuevers. I know that the officials after DQ'iong the pilot last year were showing the readings from the plane and it was at the very least in tenths of a second.
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Offline Paul Smith

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Re: How many g's?
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2009, 11:08:15 AM »
The USAF planes I flew had a G meter hidden under a panel someplace where the pilot couldn't get to it.  This meter recorded the highest instantanous (or "flash") G force of the flight.  If it exceeded a certain limit, the plane needed to be inspected to see if it was overstressed.

An airplane needs to make A LOT of lift to do high G.   For example, a 10,000 pound T-38 would need to make 80.000 pounds of lift to do 8 G's (and exceed the 7.33 limit).   Not so easy with a 25' wingspan.  Upon pulling the high G, the induced drag would instantly reduce the airpeed and make it impossible to generate 80,000 pounds of lift.  Thus the high G would be very short in duration.

I think it's pretty much the same with a stunter pulling 20 G's or an F2D pulling 35.  They pull the high G at the beginning of the turn, before airspeed drops off and reduces lift.

Paul Smith

Offline L0U CRANE

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Re: How many g's?
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2009, 05:42:42 PM »
Alan, to your reply #9,

I think Paul pretty well described it with his comments on USAF g-meter observations.

For further definition, I strongly suspect that maneuver g-loads vary in sharp corners. (Duhh...) They increase rapidly as input is applied to start the rotation, which begins almost but not quite immediately. Then, at a specific point, determined by practice, input is 'feathered off' to place the model's attitude and position at exit of the turn.

Since a really sharp corner may not last 1/3 of a second, all this happens very quickly indeed.

The peak g-loading does not persist as a steady condition as far as our reflexes and observation could recognize. That peak load is what I referred to as a 'flash' loading.

As Igor, and perhaps another one or two, have recorded in high-rate stop motion imagery, the model may actually fly the equivalent of a race car's "4-wheel drift." I.e., it skids wide of the apparent radius. It all happens so quickly that the impression is of a sharp, radiused turn which the model tracks through. Some 'drift' outward after the model reaches the exit ATTITUDE is also almost impossible to detect with the human Eyeball, 2 each, Mark 1 (w/optional supplemental lens systems).

The images I mentioned suggest that the model 'points' at about 90° to its motion in the 'drift', and that its wing and tail surfaces may act as a 'braking chute' for some infinitesimal split second, until residual kinetic energy and prop thrust carry the model out the exit track...

\BEST\LOU

Online Brett Buck

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Re: How many g's?
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2009, 05:47:52 PM »
I think it's pretty much the same with a stunter pulling 20 G's or an F2D pulling 35.  They pull the high G at the beginning of the turn, before airspeed drops off and reduces lift.

   I think this is mostly right. What we have found over the last 20 years or so is that it appears that with the far more effective propulsion (low pitched props and piped or otherwise very strong engines) the ability to apply G seems to have gone up. Used to be that folding a wing on a stunt plane was almost unheard of. Now, it's not at all uncommon. That's why we are continually building everything stronger and stronger, particular in the wing and stab center section. If they are folding this frequently, they are also flexing a lot more, so keeping them stiff and flexing without additional distortion is absolutely the key to most current stunt designs.

    I also agree with the Red Bull planes and 12g's. Maybe for the briefest of time, but not for more than a few seconds at most - too much drag, not enough power. I think the current king of sustained Gs is the F-16 at around 7.5. I would be surprised if even the F-22 can beat that, if for no other reason that the pilot can't take it.

      Brett

Offline Dean Pappas

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Re: How many g's?
« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2009, 01:29:34 PM »
Optional supplemental lens system ... I love it!
Also consider that the cockpit is not on the CG or on the aero center of the airframe:
put the pilot far enough behind the wing and apply a sharp up elevator input, and the initial loading in the cockpit may be negative. (!)

For the longest time the limitation on sustained G loading in full-size combat aircraft was thrust: without enough to maintain airspeed against elevated induced drag, speeds and G loadings would fall. Now the pilot, his posture and his G-suit are the limitation. Even the best prop-driven full-scale aerobatic craft can't maintain the peak G's for more than a few tenths of a second.

In Stunt, every improvement in airspeed maintenance in the corner will lead to cleaner corners, more G's in the middle of the corners and more wake turbulence. Oh boy!

later,
Dean P.

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Alan Hahn

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Re: How many g's?
« Reply #17 on: November 14, 2009, 01:47:59 PM »
Of course "g" are "g"'s but the lighter the plane and/or the slower you can fly into the corner, the less lift you are going to need to provide the centripetal force---for the same radius.

If the turbulence is given by the generated lift, then there should be less of that. Also less induced drag.

Online Brett Buck

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Re: How many g's?
« Reply #18 on: November 14, 2009, 02:17:06 PM »
Of course "g" are "g"'s but the lighter the plane and/or the slower you can fly into the corner, the less lift you are going to need to provide the centripetal force---for the same radius.

  Certainly. But the wings have to stay on for that to be of any advantage! Actually, they have to make it through the corner with minimal distortion or you won't be able to reliably control it. To have less distortion, you have to put on more weight. Hence the conundrum. My buddies and I have pretty well documented where we think the direction of further improvement lies.

     Brett

Alan Hahn

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Re: How many g's?
« Reply #19 on: November 14, 2009, 03:20:28 PM »
  Certainly. But the wings have to stay on for that to be of any advantage! Actually, they have to make it through the corner with minimal distortion or you won't be able to reliably control it. To have less distortion, you have to put on more weight. Hence the conundrum. My buddies and I have pretty well documented where we think the direction of further improvement lies.

     Brett

Don't argue with you there.

However I got into this thread to simply answer Matt's original question---a 10 foot radius corner requires about 20 "g"'s of lift---if one really flies an actual 10 foot radius circle.

Online Matt Colan

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Re: How many g's?
« Reply #20 on: November 14, 2009, 03:26:05 PM »
Don't argue with you there.

However I got into this thread to simply answer Matt's original question---a 10 foot radius corner requires about 20 "g"'s of lift---if one really flies an actual 10 foot radius circle.

I was spitballing on a 10ft radius corner, but hey this is a good discussion and I'm learning things, keep it going, let my brain take it all in H^^
Matt Colan

Online Brett Buck

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Re: How many g's?
« Reply #21 on: November 14, 2009, 06:09:34 PM »
Don't argue with you there.

However I got into this thread to simply answer Matt's original question---a 10 foot radius corner requires about 20 "g"'s of lift---if one really flies an actual 10 foot radius circle.

   I wasn't arguing either - just making sure everyone else realized that there was a very distinct limit to how far you can go as far as lightening things up.  Or more accurately, there's a reason we build them so much tougher now.

     Of course the real problem with very tight radii is the ability of the pilot to control the exit direction, which is not a problem you can overcome by designing it differently.

      Brett

Online Matt Colan

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Re: How many g's?
« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2009, 06:29:59 PM »

     Of course the real problem with very tight radii is the ability of the pilot to control the exit direction, which is not a problem you can overcome by designing it differently.

      Brett

Brett,

How would you design a plane differently?
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: How many g's?
« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2009, 06:06:12 PM »
Brett,

How would you design a plane differently?

   I think that has pretty well been documented over the years. Pretty much everything I ever did, and why, is in the SSW archives. But note that I said you *can't* fix the problem with super-tight corners with a new design. The problem is that the pilot can't actually control corner exits on corners that only take about 100 msec (which is about how long a 5 foot corner would take at competitive speeds).

    Brett

Offline Russell Shaffer

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Re: How many g's?
« Reply #24 on: November 15, 2009, 07:05:37 PM »
This isn't CLPA, but after reading all of the above, how many G's do you suppose a butterfly can pull?  Their speed is low, but those things don't really turn.  They just change direction, seemingly instantly.  So if you are light enough, maybe the rule book corners really are possible.  Might be a bitch keeping any line tension, though. Perhaps the boss is right and lightness is the key to the whole thing?  Just don't bring any wind.  Has anyone flown a super light stunter in the real world?  It might just work great on a calm day with a small engine so you could use tiny lines.
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Offline Dean Pappas

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Re: How many g's?
« Reply #25 on: November 15, 2009, 07:44:59 PM »
Did you ever see the construction article on the "Ridiculous"? I think that's what it was called.
A buddy of Wild Bill's built a plane just top make 5' corners. It was silly, and had the entire engine angled out maybe 20 degrees but on a line that still passed through the center of gravity in all 3 axes.

Anybody remember the designer? I don't.
Dean P.
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: How many g's?
« Reply #26 on: November 15, 2009, 07:58:59 PM »
Did you ever see the construction article on the "Ridiculous"? I think that's what it was called.
A buddy of Wild Bill's built a plane just top make 5' corners. It was silly, and had the entire engine angled out maybe 20 degrees but on a line that still passed through the center of gravity in all 3 axes.

Anybody remember the designer? I don't.

   The inimitable Rich Porter. I saw it fly - it did pretty well. He had another one that used an .09 of some sort, and also trailed streamers from both tips and the tail.

 
    And then there's the "Stunt Ball".

      All my dealings with Rich were pretty much OK, and he seemed like a nice guy, if a bit eccentric. OK, a LOT eccentric. But look around at a stunt contest some time, it's a continuum...

     Brett


p.s. although his web page seems to be a little stranger than I recall him:

http://community-2.webtv.net/RICHARDPORTER/HANDYWEBPAGEFINDER/

Offline Russell Shaffer

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Re: How many g's?
« Reply #27 on: November 15, 2009, 08:46:34 PM »
Well, Brett, he may be strange, but certainly not boring.
Russell Shaffer
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Just North of the California border

Online Brett Buck

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Re: How many g's?
« Reply #28 on: November 16, 2009, 08:34:00 AM »
Well, Brett, he may be strange, but certainly not boring.

   Certainly not!   I repeat, he was a perfectly nice guy any time I had any interaction with him. That wasn't a lot, but that was my experience. Some of our eccentrics are also unremittingly confrontational pains in the ass (several examples leap to mind) but that's not Rich.

     Brett

Offline Serge_Krauss

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Re: How many g's?
« Reply #29 on: November 16, 2009, 10:41:07 AM »
I read his material here quite a while back and wonder what has become of these. For those who didn't recognize the link:

http://community-2.webtv.net/RICHARDPORTER2/UNDEFEATEDFORMER/

I hope there's sufficient resolution below.

SK

Offline phil c

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Re: How many g's?
« Reply #30 on: November 16, 2009, 04:17:29 PM »
How many G's does someone put on a plane during a pattern?  I was just watching a Red Bull Air Race and they go up to 12, but I figure a lot more (hey the plane's flying at 55mph, making a 10ft radius corner).

Anybody got an idea H^^

Here is another look at G forces in a maneuver.  Henning Forbech, a Dutch combat flyer took these photos and calculated the speeds and g forces involved. The pilot is at the center of the circle, 15.92 meters.  The plane is another 15.92 meters away, so the loop is about a 3.5 meter radius.(It looks the radius is about the same as the pilot's armspread(1.77m) but it twice as far away). The plane starts at 153km/hr, hits 63 g's and 148 km/hr a quarter of the way around, and finishes the loop at 104 km/hr. Just looking, it looks like the radius may get down to about 3 meters, or 10 ft. radius.

You can do the same thing with several of the newer prosumer cameras that can take good quality images at 6-9 mpixels and 15-40 frames/sec.
phil Cartier

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: How many g's?
« Reply #31 on: November 17, 2009, 05:21:38 AM »
Henning Forbech's photo sequence tells a lot. You can enlarge it and measure the length of the airplane and the AOA.  The AOA looks like 23 degrees, the accepted stall point of an airfoil.

A standard Viko F2D is 18 inches ( one point five feet in The King's English).   The loop is 7.5 airplane-lengths in diameter.  Thus, the Radius is 5.6 feet, very close to the Holy Grail of stunt.

---------------------
The plane would need to make 90 pounds of lift to pull 63 G's.  That would trigger about 8 pounds of induced drag, which would instantly kill his airspeed, just as the data indicates.
Paul Smith

Offline Igor Burger

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Re: How many g's?
« Reply #32 on: November 17, 2009, 05:48:41 AM »
Nice picture, but it just shows how combat plane slows down in maneuver. Stunt radius is distance from straight flight to point where model flies already perpendicular on another straight segment, not diameter of stalled loop. Stalled model can turn also 0 diameter loop. So if I mesure distance of that combat model on picture from horizonral flight to the point where its path is already vertical, I see aproximately two arms of that guy in the middle, what is 2 x 1.77m and the model is twice as far as the model, so the radius is 4 x 1.77m ~= 7m ~= 20ft what is far from 5ft requested by rule book and also far from diameter doable by flapped stunter.  VD~

Offline phil c

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Re: How many g's?
« Reply #33 on: November 17, 2009, 09:32:21 AM »
Igor, the pilot(1.77m) is 15.92 m from the camera, the loop is another 15.92 m.  Working from my print the pilot's armspread is .7 in.(1.77m) which equals 1.4 in.(3.54m) at 31.84m from camera.  The loop radius is .875in(slightly more than the pilot's arm spread), so in meters it is .875*3.54=~3.1m., or just about twice the stunt requirement.  I think you double counted the guys arms.

Since the g's and the wing lift both scale by ^2, the radius stays the same as the speed goes down.  That means to get a 5 ft. corner the 450 gr. plane would need around 850 square inches.  That just might be possible with stick trusswork for the spars ,built up ribs using 3/32 in. square wood, and a dyed dope finish on silk covering.

The lines would kill it though.  At 50 mph or so it would need twice the line sweep of conventional planes and that would whip it around something fierce in tight maneuvers and transitions.  Spectra lines would help, or else build a 30 oz. 1600 sq.in. plane.
phil Cartier

Offline Igor Burger

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Re: How many g's?
« Reply #34 on: November 17, 2009, 09:36:02 AM »
Ahhh yes, sorry, but too much anyway.  :)

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: How many g's?
« Reply #35 on: November 17, 2009, 09:42:16 AM »
Cum on Igor & Phil.  
Gif eat up fo Hennig.   
He make tern inside two metre.
Good data - no use foto chop.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2009, 11:44:24 AM by Paul Smith »
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Offline NED-088

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Re: How many g's?
« Reply #36 on: November 23, 2009, 05:12:15 PM »
Henning Forbech, a Dutch combat flyer....
Close, but no cigar. He's Danish. We can read each other's newspapers, but understanding spoken language is one step too far.
Besides to get to Denmark, I'd have to cross Germany first...
He was the first pilot I met, who made a high aspect ratio stunter. Almost 6 ft span.....
'If you think there's something about my English, you're right. I'm Dutch... '
But I DO play Stunt and I DO fly Bluegrass.

Offline Larry Cunningham

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Re: How many g's?
« Reply #37 on: November 26, 2009, 08:45:53 AM »
So, how does that "free energy" work? Splitting water into H2 and 02 using "zero point energy"
(magnetism), mix in 5% gasoline, and it runs a Briggs and Stratton mower engine?

Interesting site, I like the perimeter shapes of the models.

L.

PS - Single stepping frames from about a dozen Windy tapes, I concluded that the best corner radius observed was 17'.. These were .60 powered, 60" span stunters on 70' lines, and I was timing laps to get the speed, so it was an average level flight lap speed. And my timer resolution was video frame rate. Igor's 3.5m (11.4') radius is tighter and believable (I think I observed 12' diameter loops on Gary Marchand's Mustunt with a broken down line). And I heard that Wild Bill and/or Bob Baron had constructed a smaller (1/2A?) twin boomed ship that could actually manage 5' corners.

If the turn radius approaches zero, a singularity is created, which warps space/time and physical laws no longer apply. (Don't ask Nature to divide by zero!) The music is reversible, but time is not.

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Offline Dean Pappas

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Re: How many g's?
« Reply #38 on: November 27, 2009, 03:06:47 PM »
The music is reversible, but time is not.


I'm guessing E.L.O.
Hope everybody had a good Thanksgiving holiday,
Dean
Dean Pappas

Offline Paul Walker

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Re: How many g's?
« Reply #39 on: March 17, 2010, 12:58:40 PM »

 I think the current king of sustained Gs is the F-16 at around 7.5. I would be surprised if even the F-22 can beat that, if for no other reason that the pilot can't take it.

      Brett
[/quote]


I wish that were true. The fact that it's not is causing us a lot of work.

Offline Jim Pollock

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Re: How many g's?
« Reply #40 on: March 17, 2010, 02:27:15 PM »
 R%%%%    Why is it we hang onto a self imposed radius of 5 feet when it was only a mental gyration of a self indulgent stunt guru?   H^^

Why not set it to something actually obtainable like 12 feet or so??? VD~

Jim Pollock,   Momma Mea, ats sum speicum meata ballas

Offline Jim Pollock

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Re: How many g's?
« Reply #41 on: March 19, 2010, 05:08:56 PM »
Gee,

No comments on the 12 foot radius.  I guess y'all think that's easily obtainable.  I bet it isn't so easy!  VD~

Jim Pollock   H^^ 

Offline Serge_Krauss

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Re: How many g's?
« Reply #42 on: March 19, 2010, 05:12:04 PM »
'no problem with having an ideal.

Offline Jim Thomerson

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Re: How many g's?
« Reply #43 on: March 20, 2010, 06:31:26 PM »
While judging or flying my own airplanes I see all the corners with 5 ft radius, regardless what the actual diameter is.  Judges judge what they see, not what actually happens.  One of my 1/2 A stunt  airplanes turns 0 radius corners, it simply rotates around its center of lift, or so it appears.  So I tried flying square corners lined up with the corner of a building.  The corners were larger than 5 foot radius, although, without a reference line, they looked, as said, like 0 radius.   

Online Brett Buck

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Re: How many g's?
« Reply #44 on: March 22, 2010, 10:58:56 PM »
The idea of flash loadings needs some thought...

   Don't overlook the fact that the accelerometers used to measure the load have a finite response bandwidth, and some overshoot.

     Brett

Online Brett Buck

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Re: How many g's?
« Reply #45 on: March 22, 2010, 11:04:55 PM »
Hving just finished watching two episodes of the Red Bull Air races on my DVR tonight, they dont pull that G load very often, and I think it is sustained for a second or at most two. Typically when I see that , its on the pullout vertical , sort of an immelman or a half loop with a roll back to upright.
They do pull 11 much more frequently however, and last year one of the pilots was DQ'ed because he pulled 13.2 Gs for an extended period.

       It couldn't be too extended a period!  While properly-supported people can stand 20g's for brief periods with the direction perpendicular to the axis of the spine, nobody stays awake for more than a few seconds with it towards their feet, and nobody stays alive for more than a few seconds with it towards their heads (strokes/burst blood vessels/damage to brain stem). I am sure that's why they DQed the guy - gray or black out and crash into the crowd, no more Red Bull. 


     Brett

Offline phil c

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Re: How many g's?
« Reply #46 on: March 30, 2010, 07:18:41 PM »
Of course "g" are "g"'s but the lighter the plane and/or the slower you can fly into the corner, the less lift you are going to need to provide the centripetal force---for the same radius.

If the turbulence is given by the generated lift, then there should be less of that. Also less induced drag.
[/quote/]

Both lift and centrifugal force vary by the square of the velocity.  So the turn radius stays the same pretty much regardless of speed.  The only real difference is that when the plane is going faster you have less time to move your hand, so getting into a corner may let it travel farther.

The actual weight the plane pulls in a maneuver will be lower if the plane is lighter.
phil Cartier

Offline Chris Wilson

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Re: How many g's?
« Reply #47 on: March 30, 2010, 09:58:12 PM »
Just as an aside here, what G force would an stunt models airframe be subject to if it slammed into the ground when failing a wing over pullout?

Thanks.
MAAA AUS 73427

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.
 Nothing in life is so exhilarating as to be shot at without result.  It's not enough that we do our best; sometimes we have to do what's required

Online Brett Buck

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Re: How many g's?
« Reply #48 on: March 30, 2010, 10:49:46 PM »
Just as an aside here, what G force would an stunt models airframe be subject to if it slammed into the ground when failing a wing over pullout?

   As Rolls-Royce used to say about their horsepower ratings - "sufficient".

     Brett

Offline Jim Pollock

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Re: How many g's?
« Reply #49 on: April 02, 2010, 04:44:42 PM »
Gee Brett,

That's the exact same thing as Dave says about the horsepower of his PA .75   LL~   LL~

Offline dale gleason

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Re: How many g's?
« Reply #50 on: April 07, 2010, 08:17:42 AM »
I hesitate to join in this discussion, no calcium or mathematics to back up my observations, but some time ago we installed a surplus "G" meter in a J3 Cub, a "Normal" category airplane. It may be stressed about +3-1 or so. We flew out of a fairly rough grass pasture and the "dead man" recorded over 6G just taxiing, twice the rated stress load. But, the wings didn't break loose.
It takes quite a man, or woman, even with a G suit to withstand anywhere in the 9G realm for very long, and it is incredibly uncomfortable. My reference is that USAF training film where the student passes out and the instructor isn't aware of it.   dg

Offline Shultzie

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  • Don Shultz "1969 Nats Sting Ray"
Re: How many g's?
« Reply #51 on: April 07, 2010, 04:17:03 PM »
Henning Forbech's photo sequence tells a lot. You can enlarge it and measure the length of the airplane and the AOA.  The AOA looks like 23 degrees, the accepted stall point of an airfoil.

A standard Viko F2D is 18 inches ( one point five feet in The King's English).   The loop is 7.5 airplane-lengths in diameter.  Thus, the Radius is 5.6 feet, very close to the Holy Grail of stunt.

---------------------
The plane would need to make 90 pounds of lift to pull 63 G's.  That would trigger about 8 pounds of induced drag, which would instantly kill his airspeed, just as the data indicates.

My condolences for nappin' this high tech talk....but after reading all this....I just removed the left bank of my brain and brain stem and all seem much betta now... H^^
« Last Edit: April 08, 2010, 09:40:40 AM by Shultzie »
Don Shultz

Online Brett Buck

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Re: How many g's?
« Reply #52 on: April 07, 2010, 06:56:26 PM »
I hesitate to join in this discussion, no calcium or mathematics to back up my observations, but some time ago we installed a surplus "G" meter in a J3 Cub, a "Normal" category airplane. It may be stressed about +3-1 or so. We flew out of a fairly rough grass pasture and the "dead man" recorded over 6G just taxiing, twice the rated stress load. But, the wings didn't break loose.

     That's because the load path was through the landing gear, not the wings. But bear in mind that if it is stressed to 3gs, it can probably be expected to handle 6 gs+ as long as there is nothing wrong with it.

     Brett

Offline dale gleason

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Re: How many g's?
« Reply #53 on: April 08, 2010, 07:26:42 AM »
Thanks Brett! "load path through the landing gear!"  Airliners are "normal" category, too, I think plus 2 and minus zero and, although I never experienced one, harumph!, I've heard of other flyers experiencing landings of much greater than 2 G, and the wings stayed on. Now I know the rest of the story.    dg  


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