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Author Topic: Would this method work to quickly seat a new piston ring ?  (Read 1027 times)

Offline redout

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Would this method work to quickly seat a new piston ring ?
« on: January 18, 2025, 10:27:14 PM »
In the automotive world, many professional engine builders give a lot of consideration to ensuring that the piston rings in newly built engines seat quickly, and it seems they do this by building up gas pressure above the ring by loading the engine quite heavily, despite it being new. At least for several short episodes. Often on the dyno but can be done on the road too.

I have read on this forum, that seating piston rings in model engines can be problematic. Also that smaller props compared to the usual size for the engine should be used for running in.

I am wondering about the possibility of going against the latter advice for a ringed engine and using a larger prop for the running in process, incorporating a few brief runs with the engine accelerating to full speed from idle, probably with an r/c carb, to parallel what the auto engine builders do.

I would bring the engine to operating temperature first and do only several brief full throttle runs.

Does anyone see anything drastically wrong with trying this approach ?

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Would this method work to quickly seat a new piston ring ?
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2025, 11:07:46 PM »
   A lot about how an engine breaks in depends on the metallurgy involved, and for a ringed engine, the hardness of the ring, how round it is, and how round the cylinder liner is are the important things also. I learned that you break any engine in by running it at normal operating temperature under a normal load for extended periods of time. With our engines, we can monitor the process by checking the exhaust for metal in the oil that comes out, and by examining the ring to see how it looks during the process. If it's a ring than has been heat treated , this will take longer. The load is regulated by using a smaller diameter and a little less pitch that you would when flying. Excess load can cause over heating that can have bad results. Generally , we do usually burp the engines a little bit into a higher, cleaner RPM to clear things out and see how it returns to the needle setting. We just usually pinch the fuel line for a fraction of a second to do that. I really don't know if increasing RPM just into a low two stroke setting would speed things up or not. I don't think I have ever seen this question come up before. I guess the best way to tell is to try it, and check the ring frequently during the run, and check the exhaust also. I think you would need to do this to several engines in order to get a feel for how it's working. My experience with ringed model engines is mainly with Super Tiger G-.51 and .60 engines, and those generally don't take very long at all to seat. And again, how round things are can affect all of this one way or the other. That is one thing Tom Lay would check on each engine he did, and if necessary, hone the cylinder a bit to make sure it was truly round.
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   Dan McEntee
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Online Lauri Malila

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Re: Would this method work to quickly seat a new piston ring ?
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2025, 04:02:53 AM »
No, that would not be a good way. If you overstress the engine in early stages of running-in, there is a big risk that you overheat the ring too much causing it to expand so much that the ring gap closes, causing a disaster.
The best way is to make each ring fit well in the bore during the machining stage. Trying to make aftermarket rings work is a hit and miss.
Steel cylinder/iron ring is a little more forgiving, the parts wear and match together for a longer time but it also means a shorter service life after running in.
Chromed cylinder is better, but to make it good and competitive the components have to be machined & fitted exceptionally well. After a relatively short period of time the chrome gets burnished and wear stops to almost zero. And if the seal is not perfect by then, it's not worth continuing.
My stuff needs 10-15 minutes of running in after which it lasts good forever. L

Offline Motorman

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Re: Would this method work to quickly seat a new piston ring ?
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2025, 09:15:24 PM »
It would help to know some details about the engine. For most sport/stunt ringed production engines I would run a couple ounces through it at a rich setting with a normal prop then put it into service. If you run it too hard/hot before surfaces are smooth, aluminum from the piston can get stuck to the bottom of the ring but, a couple ounces of fuel will smooth it out enough. Just flush it out good after run so goopy oil doesn't stick the ring.   

MM :) 
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Offline Jim Kraft

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Re: Would this method work to quickly seat a new piston ring ?
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2025, 09:28:33 AM »
 

I would agree with most of what has been said. Most of my experience is with old ignition engines. I have replaced the rings in engines like Anderson Spitfires and Atwood Super Champions. I use a brake cylinder hone to cross hatch the cylinder. If the rings do not seat after an hour or so of running, I go back and run the hone through again. The second time usually does the trick.

My normal fuel mix is non synthetic 2 stroke oil from Walmart with either gasoline or stove fuel, white gas. I have found ringed engines seat much faster with alcohol fuel. For some reason the 2 stroke oil with stove fuel just does not wear. On lapped engines it works the same way. I can run them on the stove fuel and 2 stroke oil for hours and they are still to tight to run leaned out. If I run them a while on alcohol fuel and castor they loosen up a lot faster.  Just my experience. I have an Ohlsson 23 side port that had never been run. I have about 3 hours on it with the white gas mix and it is still to tight to run in a 2 stroke for very long.
Jim Kraft

Online Lauri Malila

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Re: Would this method work to quickly seat a new piston ring ?
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2025, 10:41:10 AM »
Is there a significant difference in running temperature between alcohol- and white gas fuels? I would assume gas runs hotter. For the slower wear with gas makes sense. L

Offline redout

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Re: Would this method work to quickly seat a new piston ring ?
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2025, 03:56:56 AM »
Thanks for the responses.

As I am also into full size (car) engines, it got me thinking to try it the same way but you guys have convinced me that what has been found to work over the years is not what I proposed.

Good description Dan. And Lauri, although I have multiple spare rings (all from GC rings in the U.K.), and I can afford to sacrifice a few with "my method", I guess I can't afford to sacrifice liners should my proposal not work.

And Motorman, the engines are Super Tigre G21/46's.

Jim, I like the brake cylinder hone idea. I have a couple somewhere.

Online Lauri Malila

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Re: Would this method work to quickly seat a new piston ring ?
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2025, 05:32:50 AM »
Of course, the mechanic in me hates the idea of brake cylinder hone, but it’s better than nothing for helping to seat the ring. Just limit its use only in making the surface rough.
Unlike a proper hone, like Sunnen or Pemamo for example, it’s not a precision tool. A real hone would also improve the bore geometry, brake cylinder hone does quite the opposite the more you use it.
I must say that to remind that there is also a correct way to do things. That saves time and makes the end result more predictable, and at least in my case, even competitive with other technologies.
But if you have a stock of aftermarket (or even original) rings, the least you can do to ease the running in is to push the ring in cylinder without the piston. Using a bright backlight and trained eye you can easily see which one has the best contact with cylinder wall. L
« Last Edit: January 21, 2025, 11:31:51 PM by Lauri Malila »

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Would this method work to quickly seat a new piston ring ?
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2025, 09:54:19 AM »
Of course, the mechanic in me hates the idea of brake cylinder hone, but it’s better than nothing for helping to seat the ring. Just limit its use only in making the surface rough.
Unlike a proper hone, like Sunnen or Pemamo for example, it’s not a precision tool. A real hone would also improve the bore geometry, brake cylinder hone does quite the opposite the more you use it.
I must say that to remind that there is also a correct way to do things. That saves time and makes the end result more predictable, and at least in my case, even competitive with other technologies.
But if you have a stock of aftermarket (or even original) rings, the least you can do to ease the running in is to push the ring in cylinder without the piston. Using a bright backlight and trained eye you can easily see which one has the best contact sith cylinder wall. L

     My answer was based on breaking in a factory new engines. When just replacing a ring on a used engine, be careful with the brake cylinder hone. You don't want to get aggressive with it, just leave a cross hatch pattern in the cylinder. I usually just use my hand when working on a model engine. You could do the same thing with some 600 wet or dry paper also and your finger.. Use some oil with both. Patience with this part of the process will pay off.
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Offline Motorman

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Re: Would this method work to quickly seat a new piston ring ?
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2025, 06:14:28 PM »
If your cylinder hone is a ball hone, it will ruin the cylinder. A 3 shoe spring hone is not much better. Even if you use a Sunnen hone you will make the Bore too big before you clean up the worn area. When re-ringing a used cylinder you can use a small piece of 800 paper on your finger with oil to scuff the worn area up around top dead center to help mate the ring. All you want to do is change the surface finish as the piston fit will probably be on the loose side.

MM :)
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Would this method work to quickly seat a new piston ring ?
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2025, 10:39:26 PM »
If your cylinder hone is a ball hone, it will ruin the cylinder. A 3 shoe spring hone is not much better. Even if you use a Sunnen hone you will make the Bore too big before you clean up the worn area. When re-ringing a used cylinder you can use a small piece of 800 paper on your finger with oil to scuff the worn area up around top dead center to help mate the ring. All you want to do is change the surface finish as the piston fit will probably be on the loose side.

MM :)


   While it is generally a bad idea to do anything with a hand tool or in the field, you will not consequentially screw it up using a brake cylinder hone. As noted above, of course, you use it extremely sparingly and either turn it by hand or slow as possible just until you have scuffed up any shiny spots. Maybe 3-4 turns by hand.  At most it takes out maybe .0002-.0003, which is about the limit of any measurement method. Even if it was more than that, having the ring seat and have a .001 - .002 greater end gap is far better than hydroplaning ring with less end gap, which in some cases (like the ST46) won't run reliably and is effectively unusable.

    I repeat previous posts - do this *only in dire circumstances* when the engine clearly runs inconsistently, and you have already eliminated all other possible causes, AND, when you disassemble the engine, you see shiny spots (usually circumferential) on the sleeve. If you don't see that, you see a cross-hatch everywhere, then stop, because it won't help. The usual situation is that it was working fine for a while, then suddenly (like your morning warm-up flight), it starts going rich and lean at random. You can't do it "correctly", you are stuck. That used to happen *all the time* with the ST46 and from learned observers, ST60s. It

     I have to say I have long regretted even telling people about this, because "3-4 passes turning by hand" has been interpreted to mean "5 minutes with the trigger pulled all the way" which definitely WILL destroy it.

   As Lauri says, it is offensive to the sensiblities to do stuff like this, it is ultimate hackery that I warn people about all the time - but sometime you have to what you have to do.

     Brett

Offline redout

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Re: Would this method work to quickly seat a new piston ring ?
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2025, 03:09:31 PM »
I have several engines, some new (un-run) and some used. I will refrain from using any sort of hone unless I have ring seating issues and note that they are to be used sparingly. Also the idea of placing a ring only in the bore and checking for contact is something that I didn't know about but sounds a great idea in eliminating any possibly badly made rings. Thank you all for the help.

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