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Author Topic: Why do some engines ' RUN AWAY ' ?  (Read 3046 times)

Offline Robin_Holden

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Why do some engines ' RUN AWAY ' ?
« on: August 19, 2008, 02:04:58 AM »
Morning all . I received a note the other day from someone I really respect in C/L.
He's forgotten more than I know about setting up for stunt.

I'd asked him the following : What makes some engines 'Run Away ' ?

In a nutshell he came back with the following answer :

The usual problem is TOO MUCH OIL !

Too much oil fouls the plug.....The ignition is retarded ....We then lean the needle .....This develops more HEAT........Now much less fuel is flows through the engine ....and it tends to 'overheat '.
Voila ..... A 'run away'.
He also recommends not 'overloading' the engine with too much prop.

This problem is probably obvious to most of you guys , but to someone who's just come back to C/L it is a bugbear.

As I've said already , I REALLY respect this guy's views.

Anybody out there with views regarding the dreaded 'Run Away' would be appreciated.
 
Robin [ Ex pat Brit in the Charente full of ex-pat Brits ]


Offline EddyR

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Re: Why do some engines ' RUN AWAY ' ?
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2008, 05:01:17 AM »
You are going to get a lot of different answers to your question. I have never heard the  answer your friend gave you. I would guess most people would say not enough oil?
Ed
Locust NC 40 miles from the Huntersville field

Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Why do some engines ' RUN AWAY ' ?
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2008, 07:52:15 AM »
From my hands on real world, experience, (I started with FP .40s that are known to be runaway sensitive) whenever I have one that wants to run away,  MORE oil, works most everytime. For example, I use Powermaster 10x22 typically for fuel and when I crack the lid, I add 6 oz of castor to it before it ever gets to the airplane. the other thing I do is to make sure I run enough load on the engine to help it run better,, as in on my FP 40 I seldom ever ran anything under an 11.5 inch diameter prop. Trying to run an engine outside its happy place is a good recipe for runaway too. IOW, running and FP 40 at 8500 RPM just isnt a good thing. I run mine with around a 4 pitch prop and mid to upper 9000 rpms,,,cant remember the last time I had one run away, and I fly from sea level at 55 degrees, to 3000 feet elevation on 90 degree days,,  Personally if you are fouling the plug with oil, its to cool of a plug In MY opinion.
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Offline Robert Zambelli

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Re: Why do some engines ' RUN AWAY ' ?
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2008, 11:28:25 PM »
Hi, Robin - I'll go along with Mark on this one and add something from my personal experience.
My first FP .40 did indeed have the runaway problem. I was told that adding head shims would help but I also considered minor head modifications.
Since I had a spare FP .40 head, I decided to experiment with reshaping the combustion chamber mainly by enlarging the existing hemispherical chamber and reducing the width of the squish band. This would, of course, lower the compression ratio considerably.
On the particular engine I had, a radius of .48 inch and a .050 wide squish band worked best. The runs were perfect, yielding a very nice 2-4 break and it never ran away. I was using Powermaster 10/22 fuel and an 11-6 Rev Up prop. I tried a number of different plugs and they all worked well. An OS ratcheting needle valve did the trick.
A friend of mine was having similar problems with two FP 40s and he asked me to modify them. At the time, it was popular to reduce the blowdown by lowering the ports (intake or boost, I do not recall) so we decided to try the head mod on one and the port mod on the other. After many test flights, we decided that although both mods worked, the head mod yielded the better results.
My personal preference is really the head mod. When cutting a plated sleeve (AAC, ABC, AAN, ABN, whatever) you are grinding though a plating interface. Doing so can allow the plating to peel away at some future time, with disastrous results. The head mod on the other hand is quite safe. If you're not pleased with the results you simply replace the head with a new one. If the sleeve mod is not satisfactory, you must replace piston and sleeve ($$$).
I have performed this mod on many engines including the K&B 40, FP 35, LA 40, Bodak 25, Tower 40 and ST 60. I did them for people at no charge and all feedback was very positive. I tried it on the LA 46 but it made no noticeable difference - the engine ran perfectly before and after.

Regarding the addition of more oil, I had a mild runaway issue with a Fox 35. Since I did not have the opportunity to modify the head at the time, I tried extra shims -they did not help. I added castor to the fuel to bring the total content to around 25%, left the head shims in and the runs were right on - a very nice 2-4 break.

As I always state, this worked for me - individual results may vary.

Bob Z.



Offline Allan Perret

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Re: Why do some engines ' RUN AWAY ' ?
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2008, 06:40:49 AM »

I have performed this mod on many engines including the K&B 40, FP 35, LA 40, Bodak 25, Tower 40 and ST 60.

Bob Z.



[/quote]

Brodak 25 ??  I read that these run fine, as do my 2 Brodak 40's.  I would have though that any engine Brodak puts out is ready for stunt out of the box.  Were you having a run away issue with the one you modified ?
Allan Perret
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Offline Robert Zambelli

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Re: Why do some engines ' RUN AWAY ' ?
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2008, 08:52:54 AM »
Hi, Allan - no, not really a runaway problem as more of an bit of curiosity* to see if I could get a more classic run.  Most people are very satisfied with the B25 as is.

I had the motor on my Cardinette and I just felt like experimenting.
Turns out that I could run a higher pitch prop and the engines just got a bit milder.

Bob Z.

*Engineer: Can't leave anything alone!!!!

Offline RandySmith

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Re: Why do some engines ' RUN AWAY ' ?
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2008, 12:53:30 PM »
Morning all . I received a note the other day from someone I really respect in C/L.
He's forgotten more than I know about setting up for stunt.

I'd asked him the following : What makes some engines 'Run Away ' ?

In a nutshell he came back with the following answer :

The usual problem is TOO MUCH OIL !

Too much oil fouls the plug.....The ignition is retarded ....We then lean the needle .....This develops more HEAT........Now much less fuel is flows through the engine ....and it tends to 'overheat '.
Voila ..... A 'run away'.
He also recommends not 'overloading' the engine with too much prop.

This problem is probably obvious to most of you guys , but to someone who's just come back to C/L it is a bugbear.

As I've said already , I REALLY respect this guy's views.

Anybody out there with views regarding the dreaded 'Run Away' would be appreciated.
 
Robin [ Ex pat Brit in the Charente full of ex-pat Brits ]




Hello Robin

I have found that too much oil is almost never the cause of "runaway"
Each case needs to be looked at on its own but here  are several causes

1- too little oil content
2- tank too far away from the motor, or too much foam in the tank from vibration-bad mounting
3-too much exhaust timimng in relationship to the intake timing
4-too much compression
5-too large of a venturie resulting in poor fuel draw
6-too small of a prop, normally with high pitch
7-too much heat backing back into the engine: from things like a restricted muffler, poor airflow, etc
8-improper retiming of engines, you would be surprised at the number of engines I have seen retimed completely backwards, sloppy work, wrong port being cut ,ports not matching,etc...
9- running muffler pressure

There are other reasons but these are most common

Regards
Randy

Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Why do some engines ' RUN AWAY ' ?
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2008, 01:27:58 PM »
Randy,
thanks that is the most consice clear listing of possible causes I have seen listed.  I appreciate the facts,, and not "well I was told by,,,,," that you normally get. interestinly enough, it seems to work in line with what I have pretty much discovered out here in the desolute regions of Washington state,, maybe its universal then, lol y1
For years the rat race had me going around in circles, Now I do it for fun!
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Offline Bootlegger

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Re: Why do some engines ' RUN AWAY ' ?
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2008, 01:33:36 PM »
 :!   I'm thinking what Randy suggested in the comment about a too small muffler outlet as this will build heat and cause "run away" also. Just my .02 cents worth... :##
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Offline Larrys4227

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Re: Why do some engines ' RUN AWAY ' ?
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2008, 02:23:13 PM »
I've often wondered why my OS 25LA-S won't break for me. Thanks for the checklist of things to look for .... not a priority, but I'd love to hear it 4-2 break through manuevers.

FlySafe!  Larry (Larrys4227)

Offline Just One-eye

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Re: Why do some engines ' RUN AWAY ' ?
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2008, 04:42:34 PM »
At different times, I have owned engines that seemed willing to perform in the old way, as long as they were in a test stand, and/or in the pits.  There were a couple of ST 40s, at least one FP 35, and still another.  The FP was a Schneurle with a stock boost port; the Tigres were the usual model 40s, pre- Perry ports, with a fence on the piston. 

Set normally, and operated with normal fuels, they got halfway into a flight, and stopped breaking back out of the two-cycle.  So, they were faster in level flight, and from there, when you started a maneuver, the speed escalated until the line tension was really fierce, and the recognizability of the figure was a bad joke. 

I tried head shims, and intake restrictions.  I tried different props, and wasn't happy. 

When I took along a Shoestring (Goldberg) with a Fox 35 (or OS Max-S 35, whichever) and high-castor fuel for it, and used the same fuel on the runaway engine, I got a one speed all- four stroke run that worked nicely and never broke until either the clover or hourglass, and didn't break "hard", even when it did break.  Finally reminded of the ST engines' behavior, I found that the oilier fuel did the same thing for the FP 35. 

Offline Robin_Holden

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Re: Why do some engines ' RUN AWAY ' ?
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2008, 02:56:35 AM »
Randy , a very good morning to you from France.

As ever ....Much obliged for your usual common sense reply to my query.

Keep well , Robin.

[ Ex-pat Brit in the Charente FULL of ex-pat Brits ! ] 

Offline Kim Mortimore

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Re: Why do some engines ' RUN AWAY ' ?
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2008, 06:32:41 PM »

Bob Z,

What machine tool do you use to reshape the combustion chamber?  I have a modeling friend who is a machinist.  We are curious what you use and would like to give it a try.

Thanks,
Kim Mortimore
Kim Mortimore
Santa Clara, CA

Offline Robert Zambelli

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Re: Why do some engines ' RUN AWAY ' ?
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2008, 11:16:31 AM »
Hi, Kim - I will gladly share that info with you.

If you have access to a small lathe, you're in business.

I just went out to my shop and modified an ST 60 head so you could see the sequence.

1st photo: Stock head. Note the wide squish band.

2nd photo: I chuck the head by the combustion chamber protrusion and take a small skim cut just to insure concentricity of the head OD to the protrusion.

3rd photo: This is the tool I made. The radius is approximately .48 inch.

4th photo: The actual cutting process - slow and steady to avoid chatter. Moderate cutting speed. Note that the lathe is running in reverse.

5th photo: Voila - the finished product. Squish band is around .050.
Total time around 10 minutes.

Hope you find this helpful.

Bob Z.
 

Offline Kim Mortimore

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Re: Why do some engines ' RUN AWAY ' ?
« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2008, 05:23:31 PM »

Hi Bob,

Thanks for taking time to shoot and post step by step pix of the process!  This is very helpful, and I'm sure it will be for others also who want to try their hand at easy one-step engine modification.

Kim Mortimore
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Offline Robert Zambelli

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Re: Why do some engines ' RUN AWAY ' ?
« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2008, 05:02:25 AM »
Hi, Kim - glad I could help.
It will be interesting to see what results you get should you try the mod on other engines besides those I've done.

If you do an engine with a "squarish" head, like an LA or modern ST,  you need a lathe with a 4-jaw chuck.

If one is not available, there is a simple way around it. Chuck the head as in the second photo and take some light cuts until you have a cylindrical section thay will center up in your 3-jaw chuck. Then proceed as I've shown.
The amount of metal removed is inconsequential and your engine will defintely have a different look.

Let us know your results.

Bob Z.

Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Why do some engines ' RUN AWAY ' ?
« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2008, 09:37:53 PM »
One of the biggest problems on profiles is vibration. At least in my experience. Have a bad vibe and no matter what the mods, engine will not run right. Engine will not have a stable stable run. A vibrating nose will cause an over lean engine run. The will be down on power and run inconsistently, even if it doesn't runaway.

Hard tanks also spring leaks. Metal tanks need to be pressure tested under water before use. Doesn't matter what brand. I've had them all fail. In fact I've had almost every tank, not checked and rebuilt from the get go, go bad. Any leak will cause havoc. Often air leaks are not apparent by simply pressuring the tank out in the air. I've had tanks that looked fine when pressure tested out of water, popping the syringe back when pressurized, but a tell tail line of bubbles showed up when pressure tested under water. Said tank did not run right. Causing an uneven run until the pin hole leak was closed up with solder.

Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Why do some engines ' RUN AWAY ' ?
« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2008, 07:42:46 AM »
Dunno about the hemi-head etc. Sometimes even cutting the head, seems to noticeably reduce engine power. I'm experimenting with a few cut (modified) engines at the moment. Trouble is toning the FPs down seems to take edge off the power. We, in Philly, have seen unmodified (except for an extra head gasket or two) FP engines lug overweight planes spectacularly. For instance, an oil soaked Oriental we know, weighing in above 52 ounces. The modified engines don't do that. I've a thick winged overweight mediocrity my modified FPs won't pull over the top. Forget about the pattern. But a stock FP with an extra head gasket on the plane does the pattern with no problem. We run Foxes hard in Philly Flyer land. Year after year. (Another worthy controversial topic). When one of our top 10 fliers sees these moded FPs down on power, he says put a Fox 35 in it. He's not kidding. A good running Fox appears to nearly match the performance of modified FPs. Which begs the question. If you're going to tone down the beast, why run it.

Well, soon as the weather breaks (the wild winds especially) and I finish my summer ritual of traveling all over the country visiting family, I plan to continue doing empirical comparisons.  As the data (subjective experiences?) rolls in, I'll probably have more to say.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2008, 08:02:29 PM by Dennis Moritz »

Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Why do some engines ' RUN AWAY ' ?
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2008, 11:00:40 PM »
Like I said, when I get back to Philly, I'll do another round of tests with my modified engines. One an FP35 and one a Tower 40. The Fp35 was definitely down on power compared to an unmodified version. The resulting engine run was useful, IMHO, but not as powerful as a stock motor running well. The boost port was not modified on either engine. At Brodak I saw a Fancherized Twister flying with an engine run that sounded great. It was. A nice break etc. and very consistent. The gentleman was flying in Advanced and did well, I believe. We had a chat. It sounded as tho the mods on his FP engine were similar to the ones I've had on mine. The flying conditions happened to be great at the 2008 Brodak. Straight wind, running at about five miles an hour. Nevertheless, it seemed to me that the modified engine did not have the same authority as unmodified FPs that are running well. It could have used a bit more power on top. I will continue working with the engines I have. This has been of course an ongoing debate. To mod or not to mod. In Philly, I can only report that we've got a lot of FPs running with free flowing exhaust, big venturi, head gasket etc., that are consistent and powerful. In my experience when the FPs are running away, it's usually a tank issue, a vibration issue, an issue with fuel etc... not the engine. Profiles are the worst. Often setting up weird vibes. As I run my modified engines and compare them with stock engines, I'll talk about it.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2008, 07:15:54 AM by Dennis Moritz »

Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Why do some engines ' RUN AWAY ' ?
« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2008, 11:28:01 PM »
The gentleman who modified my engines is a well known engine man. He is very generous and skilled. I am very appreciative. Now it's a matter of observing the characteristics of these engines. Like I said, time and weather has not permitted me to do this fully as I want.

On the other side of the issue are club members who have used successfully unmodified FPs. They are advocates of these engine and frankly I've seen them run and run well. Usually on full bodied stunters. But some on profiles as well. Many of my profiles have also used unmodified FPs and run well, for a time. I had two engines modified tho, because of a season (2007) of frustration. It appeared to be the classic FP syndrome. It took quite a bit, but those engine/airplane combinations were eventually resolved. One was a case of soft nosed ARF causing weird vibes. Another was a clogged muffler and a pin hole leak in the tank. On the other hand my new Twister with a stiff front end has flown with a great FP40 engine run from the get go. Even on uniflo. It's a powerhouse lugging a somewhat overweight tubby (46 ounces) with authority. It's a stock engine setup with an extra head gasket etc.

I'm in neat position, actually, since folks on both sides of the discussion are available to me for observation and advice. So. I get to play all this out at the field and at least see how the stuff I build and run responds. In fact, Bobby Zs original hemied engines are around in our club and in use.


« Last Edit: August 27, 2008, 07:20:12 AM by Dennis Moritz »

Offline Bill Little

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Re: Why do some engines ' RUN AWAY ' ?
« Reply #20 on: August 27, 2008, 12:00:06 PM »
Hi Dennis,

Many of the modified FPs I have seen were pretty down on power, too.  I will not mention names since it isn't really proper to do so here.  I do have a Barker and a Smith OS 40FP which are powerhouses, though.  No power loss at all, and a perfect run.

Mongo
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Offline Kim Mortimore

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Re: Why do some engines ' RUN AWAY ' ?
« Reply #21 on: August 27, 2008, 02:13:38 PM »

I also have a Smith FP40, and it's the best running engine I've ever had (tho I've only run it on profiles, so I don't know about any possible burp upright/inverted, that others talk about).  It is happy 4-4, 4-2, 2-2 at a wide range of RPM and props.  One interesting thing that happened early on is I had it in a profile with the bottom of the case pressing against the inboard doubler, which was not cut out for the engine.  The run was not as smooth as it had been on another plane.  A modelling buddy with sharp eyes noticed a hairline crack in the paint on the inboard side of the doubler where the case was pressing against the opposite side.  I cut a small oval hole in the doubler to eliminate any contact with the case, and voila!, instant run improvement.   

I recall hearing that Ted Fancher had engine run problems (not an FP40) in one of his Classic planes that were eliminated by trimming some wood to allow a gap between case and nose block. 

Recently I took the engine apart out of curiousity to identify the mods, using a mic to compare with a stock engine, and I'll be darned if I could find anything.  The head is stock, and everything else as far as I can see.  Maybe there is some sort of magic voodoo ritual involved!   ~^ %^

Kim

Kim Mortimore
Santa Clara, CA

Offline Bill Little

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Re: Why do some engines ' RUN AWAY ' ?
« Reply #22 on: September 02, 2008, 10:47:02 AM »
Hi Kim,

Randy keeps copious supplies of *Eye of Newt* and other such necessary engine modification products on hand while doing his work.............

LL~ LL~

Mongo
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James Hylton Motorsports/NASCAR/ARCA

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Offline Jim Thomerson

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Re: Why do some engines ' RUN AWAY ' ?
« Reply #23 on: September 03, 2008, 05:53:36 PM »
Back in prehistory when I was flying Fox 35's a lot, I would start noticing runaway at about the start of the square 8's.  The top end of the engine would be brown and rubbery with castor crud.  Clean this off and runaway went away.  So I think runaway has to do with heat build up, at least in some instances. 

Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Why do some engines ' RUN AWAY ' ?
« Reply #24 on: September 03, 2008, 08:01:29 PM »
Jim, that heat build up is the problem in most cases, however the cure in an FP is more castor,, or better airflow, or less restrictive muffler, or all of the above
For years the rat race had me going around in circles, Now I do it for fun!
EXILED IN PULLMAN WA
AMA 842137


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