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Author Topic: What modifications are permissable for Brodak Foxberg?  (Read 1940 times)

Offline frank mccune

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What modifications are permissable for Brodak Foxberg?
« on: June 25, 2013, 04:44:51 PM »
         What can be done to the planes and engines that are to raced at the Brodak Foxberg event? Things like landing gear, adjustable leadouts etc. etc. come to mind.  What can be done to the engines to improve their performance and still be within the rules?

       There is some interest in Foxberg from our club members for the 2014 Brodak contest.

                                                                                               Tia,

                                                                                               Frank
       

Offline RandySmith

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Re: What modifications are permissable for Brodak Foxberg?
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2013, 08:13:43 PM »
         What can be done to the planes and engines that are to raced at the Brodak Foxberg event? Things like landing gear, adjustable leadouts etc. etc. come to mind.  What can be done to the engines to improve their performance and still be within the rules?

       There is some interest in Foxberg from our club members for the 2014 Brodak contest.

                                                                                               Tia,

                                                                                               Frank
       

That would be best  asked  by the Contest director  or each  separate contests, some have different rules.

Randy

Offline Brad Smith

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Re: What modifications are permissable for Brodak Foxberg?
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2013, 08:38:35 PM »
The rules are on the Brodaks web site I just checked.
Brad smith AMA780054

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: What modifications are permissable for Brodak Foxberg?
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2013, 08:48:11 PM »
Frank,
I am not an engine tuner but the Fox 35 has a few things that can be done to make them run more consistent, these are not modifications more like blueprinting. First, break it in slowly with at least 25% oil most of it should be Castor.
 
After break-in there are a couple of things to check on the Fox 35. The case and cylinder on the Fox 35 is very thin (that's the price for light weight) and susceptible to warps and twists that can cause binding.

Take the plug out and remove the backplate, then put some after run oil in the motor and turn it over. Check that the con rod moves smoothly on the piston wrist pin and crank pin. As you turn the motor over it should be smooth with no binds. If you feel any binding loosen the three back head bolts and check again. If it is smooth remove the head and take a No. 30 drill and run it through all the holes from the fin side. This gives just enough room to allow the head to pull down smooth with no binds (use a cross tighten pattern on the head bolts, 1/8 turn at a time). Check the end of the crank pin for smoothness, some of the crankpins have a little nub or roughness that should be smoothed down, you may need to pull the crank out to do this. Next put the backplate on and again tighten slowly, checking for binding as you turn the motor over. If you find a bind as you get to the final tighten take a No. 29 drill and run it through the holes in the backplate then retighten. Once it's smooth you should be good to go.

One other thing that I found can cause binding is switching out the Fox standard Philips bolts for socket heads. Seems the head on the socket head bolts is just a few thousands bigger diameter than the Philips bolts and as you pull them down can rub against side of the relief in the head where the bolts seat. So if you've done the hole enlargement and it still binds and you change the bolts change them back and see if that frees it up.

Make sure the motor mounts are straight and use the cross grain balsa between the mounts (ala Super Tiger 60 style mount). If you use aluminum pads (or hard composite pads) put 1/64" plywood shims under the motor to provide "crush" space to allow for the very slight relief angle on the Fox mount case, here again as you tighten the motor into the mounts turn the motor over with the plug out and check for binding. If the mount bolts are not straight or centered you may need to run a No. 29 or 30 drill through the mounts to give room to for the bolts.

Lastly, make sure the NVA is sealed where it goes into the venturi (I use silicon high temp sealer). With the standard Fox NVA put a short piece of fuel tube over the threads between the body and the index click wheel.

Best,        DennisT


« Last Edit: July 02, 2013, 10:32:58 AM by Dennis Toth »

Offline frank mccune

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Re: What modifications are permissable for Brodak Foxberg?
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2013, 08:21:42 AM »
    Hi Dennis:

    Thanks for taking the time to help me get my Fox .35 running well.

    A quick story. Years ago, when the Fox .35 racing came to this area, a friend of mine said for me to send him my engine and he would "set it up."

    He never would tell me what he did but I could not see any changes in the engine.  All that he would say was that he squared everything up! 

     This engine turned in times in the 22 second area in lieu of the 27 seconds that a "stock" Fox woud do.  Oh yes, it started first flip at all times!

     Sadly after winning the feature one day, this engine puked a crankshaft and ruined the engine.  I have never seen a Fox .35 run that well again.   I never knew what this guy did to the engine as it was a secret that went to the grave with him.

     Do I want to run a cheater engine? Heck no!  I am willing to bet that the engines that are run in Foxberg and other Fox .35 events have been breathed on!

     The last time that I flew Foxberg,in 1983 I had a very fast engine that would start with one flip?  The fuel milage was about 47 laps per tank.  I think that if I changed the fuel, I could have gotten more mileage!  My friends Fox would give us 67 laps per tank and one flip starts! He was not as fast as I was but the mileage would win for us in a long race.

     Case in point about the high milage was a race the my friend won with his slow but high mileage airplane.  We won a 500 lap race by 11 seconds!  The second place finisher had a very fast Fox but he only got 27 laps per tank! This guy could not beleive that he did not win! Lol He was/is a chemist who had his fuel peaked to produce the most power.  Can one think tortise and hare!

      Enough for now!

                                                                                     Stay well my friend,

                                                                                     Franchi

   

Online Dennis Moritz

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Re: What modifications are permissable for Brodak Foxberg?
« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2013, 12:39:24 PM »
Lapping piston by someone who has the feel. Same with front bushing, so that when the crank is given a hard twist by thumb and forefinger it spins free. 40th Anniversary I hear has the best potential output because the liner is tapered with a pinch. This liner/piston often needs lapping (by someone with the feel) to assist break in and achieve optimum clearance. There's issues about head tightening, back plate tightening, as have been described. Easy to distort the case which will distort the liner which will inhibit full power. Cheat on fuel capacity. Put nitro in the bottom of the bulb.  ;D

Online Dennis Moritz

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Re: What modifications are permissable for Brodak Foxberg?
« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2013, 01:27:19 PM »
Interesting to note that Foxes won Foxberg this year. In the past LA25s and Brodak25s (both legal in Foxberg at Brodak) came in first a number of times. Seemed about to dominate the event.

Offline kenneth cook

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Re: What modifications are permissable for Brodak Foxberg?
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2013, 09:57:17 AM »
                          Dennis, the long and the short of it is that lapping the piston liner in is not an accepted procedure as your to fly the Fox out of the box. While you may feel that this is accepted in terms that your not modifying the engine, you indeed are doing things to the engine which by the rules is not acceptable. The gray area here is that if one was to dismantle the engine you probably wouldn't be able to tell if you did this. A trained eye can tell if the liner was also trued and flattend on the top end of the liner and those who fly are well aware of who is doing what to the engines.  The engine is not be modified in anyway and this generally isn't contested at Brodak's.It does indeed raise an eyebrow or two as two what really may be going on with some of the engines. In the 3 times I've had the pleasure to race at Brodak's, I haven't witnessed a single engine dismantled.  The only modifications that your allowed is to change the needle valve assembly and Randy Smith needles are indeed correct and fit the regulations. The Fox has a worthless piece of cr@# for a needle valve and this one modification alone is well worth the enjoyment of running the Fox and the correctly regulated engine run.

Online Dennis Moritz

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Re: What modifications are permissable for Brodak Foxberg?
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2013, 11:57:23 AM »
Racing is racing. Always are gray areas. Box stock usually implies that blue printing is permitted as long as the timing has not been altered. In any case that's what appears to be happening. Is there a specification that engines cannot be disassembled? Is disassembly in itself considered a modification? I have seen a number of Foxes that would not run unless lapped in. Tolerances were too close. Overheating locked up the engine time after time when breaking in. At least two of these engines were sent back to Fox to fix. Came back same way. When the piston/liners were lapped in, engines ran quite well.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2013, 01:00:27 PM by Dennis Moritz »

Offline C.T. Schaefer

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Re: What modifications are permissable for Brodak Foxberg?
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2013, 06:51:19 PM »
There was one non Fox in the finals at Brodak. I don't believe they were ahead, but they were running very well until someone struck a match to their plane during a pit stop. So..... it kinda burned up. Coulda happened to any of us. As for the other two teams, Al and myself totally dominated the Philly contingent. (Only kidding. It was a great race. There were boo.boos on both sides and I guess we made fewer of them 'cause we won by 1 second!!)
 
 The moral is: It's all about 'the race'. So. Read the rules. Get your junk together. practice a bunch and get out there! The type of race we had at Brodak does not happen that often so when it does it's just smiles all around for everyone.  Cheers, Tom

PS  The plane we used has been raced many times. Same motor,tank and prop. Pretty sure it also won at Brodak 10 years or so ago. Not exactly 'high tech'.

Offline frank mccune

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Re: What modifications are permissable for Brodak Foxberg?
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2013, 10:27:20 AM »
    Hi:

    Is this Tommy Schaefer of the N.J. racing fraternity?

     I visited you guys several times and watched you run your races.  To say that you all have your jam together would be an understatement! You have mastered the Fox .35 Stunt as a racing engine! Oh yes, you also have very good pilots and pit men.  For me to travel to your field is about 3 plus hours! When my daughter lived on Staten Island, it was only a 30 minute drive.

     We at HAMS have grown small in number and very old as of most CL clubs. We do not have any pavement on which to fly but I am going to check out a couple of abandoned large paved lots.  If we could get permission to use one of these places, it would be a great! Most of us have our old Foxberg equipment from the early 80's. I think that I used to turn 25 seconds for 7 laps in those days.  Would this be competitive today? Oh yes, I lost my pilot due health reasons and for me to be a pilot, I would have to be trained.Lol As a pitman, I could possibly be able to do it if I had a couple of days to get limber. Lol

 Congrats on you win! I hope that your health problems are improving!

 One second! That was a close one.  My buddy and I won a 500 lap Foxberg Race once by 11 seconds! That was a long race! His plane was not as fast as some, but got 67 laps per 2 oz. tank! He passed some very fast planes while they were pitting.

                                                                                                 Sincerely

                                                                                                 Frank McCune

                                                                                                       

Offline C.T. Schaefer

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Re: What modifications are permissable for Brodak Foxberg?
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2013, 06:53:58 PM »
Hi Frank, Yes it's me. We are still at it although, just like almost everywhere, there are fewer of us. I have not been doing a lot of r&d with the faster classes lately cause they are faster than I am these days. The Brodak events are very doable and fun. This year they broke it into sportsman and expert classes and I think that worked out very well. I was a little apprehensive about flying 3 up for 15 minutes in clown but found that I could still do it well and that felt good. We didn't win that one but were right in there.  The competition was excellent! Hats off to Roy and Louis! (we like to think of them as our students. Guess they learned too good!)   Tom


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