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Author Topic: What is BBTU?  (Read 3731 times)

Offline frank mccune

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What is BBTU?
« on: July 30, 2017, 05:56:46 AM »
      Hi:

      I was recently told that an engine had the BBTU.  When asked what it was, the person replied that it is a Bruce Buck tune up.  I was also informed that Brue Buck doe not tune engines. 

     Is this some type of inside joke?

                                                                                                                     Just curious,

                                                                                                                     Frank McCune








buck tune up

Online Dan McEntee

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Re: What is BBTU?
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2017, 06:30:17 AM »
  Good Morning Frank;
   Do a search on the forums for OS FP.20 and it will be explained. It is basically referring to how to operate an OS FP.20 on a Top Flite Flite Streak ARF.
   Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee
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Offline John McFayden

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Re: What is BBTU?
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2017, 06:32:40 AM »
The BBTU is a set up for the FP .20 that uses a stock OS FP .20, 9X4 APC prop and 3 oz Hayes plastic tank. Used on a SIG Sky Ray .35 originally and said to fly similar to a piped plane. No internal engine modifications. Use the stock muffler.

Search BBTU here and get many references.

John McFayden

Offline frank mccune

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Re: What is BBTU?
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2017, 07:55:51 AM »
    Hi Guys:

     Thanks for the prompt replies

      I did a search for BBTU and Brett Buck but did not find anything to answer my question.  Google was no help either.

      The chap that I was referring to was flying an OS .25 with a Hayes 3 oz. tank and lethal looking plastic 9-4 prop in an OTS plane.  He was getting a great engine run!

     I had a feeling that Mr. Buck was exhibiting a bit of tongue in cheek humor. Lol

                                                                                                         All of the best.

                                                                                                         Frank McCune

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: What is BBTU?
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2017, 09:05:30 AM »
      I did a search for BBTU and Brett Buck but did not find anything to answer my question.  Google was no help either.

   There has never been a topic covered in more detail and at more extreme length in the history of CL Stunt internet forums. There's a 30+ page document on what you should do.

     
Quote
The chap that I was referring to was flying an OS .25 with a Hayes 3 oz. tank and lethal looking plastic 9-4 prop in an OTS plane.  He was getting a great engine run!

     I had a feeling that Mr. Buck was exhibiting a bit of tongue in cheek humor. Lol


   Mr. Buck did not invent the term BBTU, and he's a notorious pain in the ass with no discernible sense of humor.

     I think Doug Moon (or possibly Steve, also a notorious wise-guy with admirable skills, although he has failed to attain even a Top 10 on the Larry Fernandez "Biggest Smart-Ass list") coined the term, but Dirty Dan Rutherford elevated it to high art .

       The joke is that there is *no* tune-up. The magic trick to the 20FP is to *run all the parts that come in the box without drilling, grinding, modifying, ANYTHING*. That means

STOCK OS 20FP-S ABC or OS 20FP-S RN ABC, engine,  completely unmodified.
STOCK venturi exactly as it comes from OS.
STOCK spraybar exactly as it comes from OS. This includes the "nozzle" in rear-needle arrangement. or conventional spraybar for the front-needle setup.
STOCK E-2030 muffler with nothing drilled out, ground off, "removed for better flow"
STOCK APC 9-4 Propellor. You can satisfy the insaitable need to modify something by sanding the flash off the TE, to the point you can flip it forward without cutting your finger.
STOCK glow plug that comes with the engine, or, discarded Thunderbolts or other quality hot plug, scrape taters off the element with an exacto knife if there are any.
Any tank that is offset less than 1.5" outboard from the mounting lugs (profile) or centerline of the engine (upright or inverted). Inboard is OK, but not necessary. I use a Sullivan SS-4 clunk tank (about $3.95, no modifications) with the wide part up against the fuselage. If it is a suction tank, hook up a pressure line from the muffler to the vent. If it is a uniflow tank, use it normally with an open vent.

Any normal Hobby Shop fuel from 10% on up.

    Despite the perfectly clear and absurdly simple directions (since they tell you to open the box and bolt it to the airplane), extensive painful experience has demanded a long list of DO NOTs that I feel compelled to add:

DO NOT disassemble, adjust, disassemble/clean/lube the engine. DO NOT replace the screws with "better" ones, and the engine comes with a perfectly good Allen wrench, so use that. There aren't any "chips" or "swarf" in the engine. In fact, of someone comes around you and uses the word "swarf" with respect to modern production stunt engines, move carefully but quickly away from them and don't let them near your 20FP or another other engine you might have.

DO NOT, repeat DO NOT, replace the spraybar and venturi with the "better ST needle" and/or a venturi from the "How I came in 4th at the 1956 East Podunk Stunt Exhibition and Chili Cook-off" venturi chart.   

If you have an RC version that you want to convert, get the STOCK, repeat STOCK,  OS replacement CL parts which are still available from Tower. I would suggest the rear-needle system, only because the 20FP version is much less prone to damage from inverted crashes than the front needle, or the 25LA plastic backplate mount (which is otherwise perfectly fine and does not need to be replaced or modified).

DO NOT "add head shims" or modify the head in any way, or even take it off or loosen the screws. DO NOT buy or make "replacement" head shims, because all that will do is induce some genius to start stacking them in there. 

DO NOT substitute an "equivalent" propellor.

Break-in should ideally consist of one ground run of the 4-ounce Sullivan tank, in the airplane, at a wettest-possible 2-stroke. Then fly it, Set it on the ground by peaking it out in a 2-stroke, then backing off the needle until you get a distinct reduction in the RPM, 6-8 clicks of the needle (which you have not foolishly replaced with a ST or other "better" version). Be very aware that the engine, particularly the plain-bearing section, will loosen up dramatically over the first few flights, to the point that it will go very rich by the end of the flight. Reset between flights as indicated. The venturi and front end will usually be BLISTERING hot after the first few runs. The fuel consumption will be astronomical, you may only get through the round 8s on 4 ounces on the first flight. It may want to quit, particularly on inside maneuvers near the end of the flight. The needle will have to go in (using the same methodology, peak out lean, then back off until you get a distinct drop) after every flight, which indicates that the engine is loosening up. This effect will get smaller and smaller over successive flights, and if you keep putting in 4 ounces of fuel, all of a sudden, it will run 12+ minutes. That means you should reduce the fuel carried, it will get down to around 2 ounces for a complete stunt pattern.

   The airplane should fly around 4.5 sec/lap or slightly slower. This should provide abundant line tension for any appropriate airplane (basically, profile trainers designed in the miserable dark ages to use a Fox 35), and will *not* seem fast in the maneuvers. Use .015 lines from around 58 to around 62'. 58 will tend to screw you into the ground. It should run in a medium 2-stroke in level flight and pick up slightly to a lean, near-peak 2 in the maneuvers.

    In case you (and everyone else) has not gotten the point, this engine has a better stunt run quality than any other engine you have or will every likely have, using it STRAIGHT OUT THE BOX WILL ALL THE PARTS EXACTLY AS IT LEFT THE FACTORY.   I have long since lost track of the number of times I have had people come to me and say that the engine doesn't work like I said, and it has no power, or it "runs away",. In every single case, someone has decided to "improve" or "substitute" "better" parts, took it apart to clean out the "swarf", etc. In every one of those cases, the "improvement" caused their problem they were complaining about. In many cases, I took my ~20-year old engine with hundreds of flights and maybe run on gasoline/Wesson oil* or an a brand new, never-run, stock engine straight out of the plastic bag, and a stock APC 9-4 straight out of the package, bolted it to the airplane, started it, and all their problems were immediately solved.

You DO NOT know how to improve it, and neither does anyone else. That in particular includes the legion of people who proclaim themselves "engine experts", in fact, most "engine experts" will almost IMMEDIATELY screw it up with the very first thing they do, and almost none of them know what you actually need from a stunt engine to optimize overall performance.

   Note also that more-or-less the same thing applies to the "new" 25LA, except that it seems to have substantially more power, that needs to be LEFT ALONE WITH NO MODIFICATIONS as well.

    Brett
   
« Last Edit: July 30, 2017, 09:28:50 AM by Brett Buck »

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: What is BBTU?
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2017, 09:13:29 AM »
   Do a search on the forums for OS FP.20 and it will be explained. It is basically referring to how to operate an OS FP.20 on a Top Flite Flite Streak ARF.

Or just about any other similar-sized plane.

   Mr. Buck did not invent the term BBTU, and he's a notorious pain in the ass with no discernible sense of humor.

  ...

   Note also that more-or-less the same thing applies to the "new" 25LA, except that it seems to have substantially more power, that needs to be LEFT ALONE WITH NO MODIFICATIONS as well.

This has been my experience -- or, at least, I got talked into the BBTU early on and never strayed, and it's worked very well on the 20FP and the 25LAs that I've used.  The only real problem is that it spoils you, so when you move up to a 46LA or other engine you realize that you actually have to THINK (oh, horrors!) to use the engine effectively.
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Offline Fredvon4

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Re: What is BBTU?
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2017, 10:41:35 AM »
IN Frank's defense....a few years back I was searching on one or many models I was considering building-----and saw several references to BBTU in a lot of SkyRay threads...   it was as if EVERY BODY knew what BBTU meant intuitively...Just my opinion

I Searched for BBTU and got the 30 + pages that Brett is referring to above in his post

Fortunately many of the threads, in various topics, all had something for me to learn.

 BUT!!!! It did take a lot of reading before finding a thread where the tongue in cheek Brett Buck Tune UP (BBTU) was fully described by Dirty Dan Rutherford, who claims Doug Moon coined the now ubiquitous moniker

So please do not be too fast to assume a simple search for the term BBTU can yield a quick way to see what that ACRONYM means

That said---- I think the BBTU and many other subsequent discussion by Brett and Others----- about engines that work near perfect OUT OF THE BOX WITH NO DREMEL HACKING---- is worthy of a  good sticky in the Engine set up section...with BBTU in the topic title


And for what it is worth..... I had plans to relive my youth and only really knew anything about ST, Fox, Enya,  and McCoy 35s ---paired with some 1970s planes I used to fly or wanted to fly

I got the engines, got many kits, went in search...learned a lot of stuff

Set up a Ring Master with a Fox 35
Set up a Rugged Stunt Trainer (RST) with a OS FP 20 BBTU

The difference was amazing.... all my ST/Enya/McCoy 35s still sit in drawers and I have 5 flying models all with some BBTU system that works as described EVERY time

I was able to find many reasonable cost OS FP 20/25s (iron and ABC), and LA 25s, several NIB ----and from those sources also got a real good selection of lightly used to NIB OS FP and LA 40/46s in silver, or blue

I will note that with the cost of a RC version OS FP 20 ----I did have the added expense of the Tower sourced Venturi, NVA, and 2030 Muffler.... But still, the whole FP 20 shebang came in a little less than the cost of a NIB Fox 35 50th Anniversary ( that I thought I got a good deal on relative to other BUT IT NOW prices)

I have two identical S-1 Ring Masters of nearly similar weights...

I prefer the OS 20 ABC BBTU powered one over the Fox 35 (no burp plug)....

Easier to first flight prime and start,  does not bump back and bite me if I get the prime wrong,   BUT the big difference is....

 I have no Tach adjusted RPM with the Fox that yields a repeatable back to back flight....probaly a function of the sloppy venturi /NVA.. The OS FP20 on the other hand... predictable prime and start.... Tach adjusted RPM has a MUCH broader range... setting to 10,900 at launch I know what it is going to do... listening to better pilot and launching at 11,400 was a lot better

Basically what I think I am experiencing is between the Fox and BBTU Ring Master--- on one land the Fox 35 is a limited power engine, with not much range of preferred fuel use and power requiring a lot of fussing with props, fuel, tank positing, holding mouth right when adjusting the Needle

The BBTU, EXACTLY as described has a much broader range of Fuel metering... with this set up I can fly back to back flights and trust that the plane and power package will not do weird things causing me to loose concentration on the habit I am trying to learn or unlearn


NONE of what I mentioned above is meant in any way to disparage the Fox stunt 35... an OK engine for what it is..... and really..... the only choice for any old fart seeking a perfect 1950~1980s Nostalgia experience with several hundred models designed to use THAT engine

Truth is My RM with Fox 35 is simply to honor my dad who actually powered his first with a Spark McCoy... I don't want to play spark so the Fox 35 fit into my personal nostalgia fetish.......... Now if I could just blend or find a fuel that smelled the Same......................... Shinola!




« Last Edit: July 30, 2017, 03:10:25 PM by Fredvon4 »
"A good scare teaches more than good advice"

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Offline frank mccune

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Re: What is BBTU?
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2017, 11:09:54 AM »
     Hi Fred:

     Great post!

     I too am/was a throwback to yesteryear and have seen that the new engines are light years ahed of what I lust after in the 40's and 50's!

     The biggest things that I noticed is that the newer engines start easier, run predictably, are lighter and produce much more power than their predecessors. It is a real joy to have an engine that has all of the attributes that make cl fun!

      Enough for now as I have to go outside and see if I can get my 1972 Enya 35 that is in in a never flown Chipmunk circa. 1978 Chipmunk fired up to enable me to have some fun tomorrow. Lol

                                                                                                                  All of the best,

                                                                                                                   Frank McCune

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Offline Phil Krankowski

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Re: What is BBTU?
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2017, 12:39:51 PM »
The iron lung FP20 and FP25 will require a new muffler, the E-2030 muffler that the LA25 and ABN FP20 and ABN FP25 shipped with.  This is 5 popular discontinued engines that will perform similarly with the same prop, tank, and setup. 10 if you count RC and CL versions, the RC versions show up on ebay frequently around $30 - $50

iron FP20
iron FP25
ABN FP20
ABN FP25
LA25

The muffler appears to be the key component with the tank and prop bringing it all together.

The ABN FP is arguably superior, but I have iron.

If you are converting a RC engine to CL then use the LA25 venturi listed on the OS website.  Your choice of remote NVA or venturi mounted STOCK OS NVA.  The front mounted NVA is arguably superior, but both work. 

The plastic back remote NVA on the LA25 will require protection if you are still crashing, so cut a triangle of aluminum to capture in the mounting bolts on that side of the engine.  The NVA can also be sawed off and located in a safer position.  There are some that the NVA was a separate part from the back allowing the remote NVA to be located safely.

The back from the FP is NOT the same as the LA even though they "fit".  I am not sure the exact differences but I am told the length inside the case is quite different.

launch RPM is 13600 to 13800 if I wrote the right stuff in my notes.  (I see 11,400 mentioned above)

Phil

Offline Fredvon4

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Re: What is BBTU?
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2017, 01:13:52 PM »
Phil

EXACTLY

Except with a APC 9x4 ON mine--with 10 or 15% N and 22% 50/50 oil --and a 30~35 oz plane  the FP ABC 20 likes 10,900 to 11,600 RPM  launch to give a perceptible 4x2x4 run.... ... well the reader needs to understand.... compared to a Fox 35 or other definite 4-2-4 run that you can see, feel, and hear...
the BBTU is much more subtle... not a whole lot of sound change....up hill makes more power, down hill falls back a bit...level... up or inverted sounds and feels right

I did set it one time, by ear, at a screaming, much leaner 2 stroke, and it flew just fine for a long long time and just a tad faster lap times then I was comfortable with...no idea on launch RPM, but if I was to guess well over 12K

What I seemed to learn is that the BBTU has a very very broad range of adjust-ability with ONLY fussing with fuel and needle

I have deliberately felt froggy  some days,  and tweaked the needle to a screaming lean n mean tone--- just to wring out one of the RSTs real fast with a short tank and get my Adrenalin up

I have more than one FAST combat plane designed for a Nelson N36C that has a OS FX 25 on the Nose....jest sayin
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: What is BBTU?
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2017, 01:49:10 PM »
Your choice of remote NVA or venturi mounted STOCK OS NVA.  The front mounted NVA is arguably superior, but both work. 

The front mounted NVA works slightly better, until you crash inverted -- then it doesn't work well at all.  A rear-mounted NVA, set up parallel to and behind the cylinder, will get a bit bent up in a crash but won't break.  If I were setting up a plastic-backed engine with it's remote NVA, I'd start out by relocating the thing, or getting the FP remote NVA (which, as I understand it, is just the NVA from an RC carburetor and an aluminum bracket -- but I don't know the part number for the NVA).

My wife is currently learning to fly on a 40-sized profile that has a Tower 40 with a 46LA remote needle on it for just this reason -- and she's crashed it a couple of times, and we've been saved some grief by the remote NVA.
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Offline Dane Martin

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Re: What is BBTU?
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2017, 03:30:18 PM »
which, as I understand it, is just the NVA from an RC carburetor and an aluminum bracket -- but I don't know the part number for the NVA


OS part number 21181902
NVA assembly

Offline Phil Krankowski

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Re: What is BBTU?
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2017, 04:09:32 PM »
... (which, as I understand it, is just the NVA from an RC carburetor and an aluminum bracket -- but I don't know the part number for the NVA).
...

The older LA25 engines had a separate bracket for the NVA, but the later ones, and the newer plastic backs, the NVA is molded into the back and there is no safe location.  Nothing a saw won't fix, or some added protection.

Phil

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: What is BBTU?
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2017, 04:45:49 PM »
The older LA25 engines had a separate bracket for the NVA, but the later ones, and the newer plastic backs, the NVA is molded into the back and there is no safe location.  Nothing a saw won't fix, or some added protection.

Phil

Yup.  That's what I was talking about wanting to modify -- use it as-is on a profile and it'll snap off on the first inverted crash, possibly taking the backplate along with it.
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Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: What is BBTU?
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2017, 11:18:14 PM »
This is like a D F R P or K I S S then .  VD~

Offline Chris Wilson

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Re: What is BBTU?
« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2017, 06:27:15 PM »

The muffler appears to be the key component with the tank and prop bringing it all together.


I agree, an educated guess is that the muffler acts as a Helmholtz resonator or 'tertiary pump' if you will.
Primary pump is the lower crank volume, secondary pump is the upper crank volume and tertiary is the exhaust extension volume - in this case the chambered volume at the end of the muffler.

A Helmholtz resonator will be identifiable be the key components of aperture and volume, not length and volume like the more commonly understood reflective systems and it will attenuate frequencies above its tuned range acting as a limiter.

Just my opinion here, add salt to taste.
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Offline Phil Krankowski

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Re: What is BBTU?
« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2017, 12:30:18 PM »
Yup.  That's what I was talking about wanting to modify -- use it as-is on a profile and it'll snap off on the first inverted crash, possibly taking the backplate along with it.

been there...  bought extra back plates.
Phil

Offline Martin Quartim

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Re: What is BBTU?
« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2017, 04:05:36 PM »
Does any one have a video of some one flying the pattern using an OS 20FP BBTU?

Martin

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