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Author Topic: Medallion wont start  (Read 2096 times)

Offline Bootlegger

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Medallion wont start
« on: April 14, 2020, 05:59:56 AM »
 Guy's I have a Medallion engine that I can't get to run, it'll run the prime, but not keep running, I have checked and it does draw fuel, but that is all...

  The fuel is roughly 10% nitro 22% castor and about 5% synthetic, prop is a 5.7x3 A P C, Cox glow plug..
 Help/suggestions   Thanks
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Offline kenneth cook

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Re: Medallion wont start
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2020, 06:57:47 AM »
            Is the spraybar 100% clear of blockage? When the engine was running on prime, did you place your finger over the venturi to assist in fuel draw? Cover it slightly to see if you can keep it running, it's then obvious you have a extreme air leak.  Did you open the needle approx 4-4.5 turns open? Is your fuel line clear so that you can see the fuel coming up into the engine?  The spraybars in the Medallion are brass, therefore the green goop forms and it can solidify. This means taking it out insuring the jet is clear on the spraybar by passing a small wire through it both ways. One c-clip holds it and it can easily be removed. Did you remove the needle valve spring and place a piece of tubing over the needle threads making sure it was sealed up to the spraybar? You make no mention of whether the engine is mounted on a plane or on a test stand. How long is the fuel tubing from the tank to the spraybar? How did you determine fuel draw? How old is the Medallion plastic carb body? Is it leaking around the carb body? They do crack from age.  Is air leaking around the threads of the needle valve? Is the needle valve inserted into the carb body correctly with the jet hole orientated down? Is the backplate leaking or not properly tightened? Could this crankcase have been used prior on a TD and a hole was drilled through the  crankcase for timed crank pressure?  You would have to remove the carb body to determine this. If mounted on a plane, are you using a Perfect tank ? Many of the older Perfect tanks utilized tubing which is too small and even the small tubing offered today doesn't fit properly causing air leaks. In addition, Perfect tanks are not so Perfect and the newer offerings are even worse than the old ones.  The old Perfect tanks used brass tubing which the seamed tubing splits. While the tank may pass a pressure test, it doesn't draw fuel unless the split ( If split) is totally immersed and when it becomes uncovered it's game over.  Was the tank pressure tested? Is the tank height mounted properly? You've left a lot of important information out of the equation.


 I will say the engine will run on 10% nitro but it does much better on higher nitro. I also feel while it shouldn't prevent the engine from running, the oil content of 27% is over the top. Sig 1/2A Champion fuel is what most of us Cox users are using which  is 50/50 with a total oil content of 20%.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2020, 07:19:50 AM by kenneth cook »

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Medallion wont start
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2020, 04:05:36 PM »
Guy's I have a Medallion engine that I can't get to run, it'll run the prime, but not keep running, I have checked and it does draw fuel, but that is all...

  The fuel is roughly 10% nitro 22% castor and about 5% synthetic, prop is a 5.7x3 A P C, Cox glow plug..
 Help/suggestions   Thanks

   That's an awful lot of oil for a Cox engine. There's probably something wrong with it, but, it's possible that it will not draw fuel that thick. I presume that you checked it by opening the needle until it fell out, and still no go.

      Brett

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Medallion wont start
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2020, 04:25:16 PM »
... I presume that you checked it by opening the needle until it fell out, and still no go...

Brett!  You know that an engine won't draw fuel for crap if you open the needle until it falls out!
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Offline Mark Mc

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Re: Medallion wont start
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2020, 10:45:11 PM »
Quick check.  With the fuel line hooked up to the engine and the needle turned out 6 or 7 turns, turn the engine upside down with the venturi pointing down and below the level of the fuel tank to see if fuel drips out, showing an unobstructed NVA.

Mark

Online Larry Renger

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Re: Medallion wont start
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2020, 06:51:48 AM »
In a PM he found that he did not have a head gasket!  y1
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
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Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Medallion wont start
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2020, 07:41:13 AM »
I had one of these as a kid.  Same problem.  Didn't know squat about engines back then (still don't).  It would run lean for a while on Missile Mist and that was about it so I used it on a free flight. 

Ken
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Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Medallion wont start
« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2020, 11:19:25 AM »
After you check that there is not blockage in the NVA check that the hole in the spraybar is positioned pointing down the venturi correctly. Also check that the back cover is seated correctly, not cross threaded or leaking.

Best,   DennisT

Online Larry Renger

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Re: Medallion wont start
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2020, 05:07:48 AM »
Did you ever get the engine running?  ???
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
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Offline Bootlegger

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Re: Medallion wont start
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2020, 06:49:12 AM »

 Larry, not yet as life has gotten in the way...
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Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Medallion wont start
« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2020, 11:52:47 AM »
I had one of these as a kid.  Same problem.  Didn't know squat about engines back then (still don't).  It would run lean for a while on Missile Mist and that was about it so I used it on a free flight. 

Ken
I forgot to add that I ran it on bladder pressure on the FF.  It ran well in that environment.  It may run that way for CL.

Also forgot to ask, which Medallion was it?  If I remember there were 4 .049, .051, .09 and .15.

Ken
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Medallion wont start
« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2020, 12:32:05 PM »
I forgot to add that I ran it on bladder pressure on the FF.  It ran well in that environment.  It may run that way for CL.

   The Medallion .049, at least, should run perfectly well on suction - *as long as it is not modified*. If it doesn't, something is definitely wrong with it. A Medallion 049 is a much better choice for stunt than a Tee Dee, precisely because that.

   The Medallions I have used and run in stunt have uncannily steady runs, if it wasn't for the doppler shift, you couldn't tell whether they were doing maneuvers or not.

     Brett

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Medallion wont start
« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2020, 02:14:31 PM »
   The Medallion .049, at least, should run perfectly well on suction - *as long as it is not modified*. If it doesn't, something is definitely wrong with it. A Medallion 049 is a much better choice for stunt than a Tee Dee, precisely because that.

   The Medallions I have used and run in stunt have uncannily steady runs, if it wasn't for the doppler shift, you couldn't tell whether they were doing maneuvers or not.

     Brett
I may have had a dud.  It has been a while but didn't the .049 have a molded venturi that had a hex indent making it impossible to get the spraybar positioned wrong?  If that was the case and the spraybar was drilled wrong you could never get it to work.  As a kid I used to run the machines that made tiny parts like spraybars and you can easily drill one wrong, especially when setting up the machine.  Possibly a bunch of bad ones made it into production.  Also, I don't know if anybody asked if the pressure port was opened?

Oh, by the way mine was NOT modified.  I don't do that.

Ken

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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Medallion wont start
« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2020, 03:39:02 PM »
I may have had a dud.  It has been a while but didn't the .049 have a molded venturi that had a hex indent making it impossible to get the spraybar positioned wrong?  If that was the case and the spraybar was drilled wrong you could never get it to work. 


   The hex on one side is captured, so that it can go any one of six ways, as I recall.

   Brett

Offline bob whitney

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Re: Medallion wont start
« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2020, 04:50:21 PM »
Brett is right the hex is captured .even if it was off by one slot one way or the other it should run on the ground
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Offline 944_Jim

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Re: Medallion wont start
« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2020, 05:28:53 PM »
Bootlegger,
I'm a six hour drive north/northeast of you. If you ever go through Tupelo or Tuscaloosa, bring it on up. We can try running it together here.

PM for details.

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Medallion wont start
« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2020, 07:05:20 PM »
Brett is right the hex is captured .even if it was off by one slot one way or the other it should run on the ground

   Certainly. It's not at all finicky; if it is, then, there is something wrong with it. On of the things that people used to do was drill out the venturi to Get More Power. Even a tiny bit is very likely to cause the problem discussed, particularly with grossly excessive oil.

   Much better way to Get More Power, without screwing it up otherwise, is to use a Tee Dee cylinder/piston assembly. That is, after you have switched to Cox Racing Fuel, which improves the power dramatically over "Blue Can".

    The best way of all to Get More Power is to build the airplane lighter, of course, then the engine can be left alone.

    Brett

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Medallion wont start
« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2020, 07:53:16 PM »
Brett is right the hex is captured .even if it was off by one slot one way or the other it should run on the ground
72 degrees off is a lot off!  Under pressure maybe.

Ken?
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Offline bob whitney

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Re: Medallion wont start
« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2020, 09:31:45 AM »
will it run the prime out??
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Offline Bootlegger

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Re: Medallion wont start
« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2020, 12:25:56 PM »

 Yes Bob, it will run the prime out, I think that the castor content was tooooo much, gonna try 10-22 maybe add a LITTLE castor, up to a total of 18% like Cox fuel.  Thanks for asking, I ain't gonna quit... H^^ H^^
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Offline bob whitney

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Re: Medallion wont start
« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2020, 12:38:26 PM »
what type of tank do u have it hooked up to . do u have a picture  after filling the tank block off the over flow with your finger and force feed some fuel into the tank and see if it flows into venturi then prime and see what happens??

just a thought, the TD plastic housings have been known to split if tightened too tight,just make sure yours is snug. I know Medallian ,but still plastic 
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Medallion wont start
« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2020, 05:51:25 PM »
Yes Bob, it will run the prime out, I think that the castor content was tooooo much, gonna try 10-22 maybe add a LITTLE castor, up to a total of 18% like Cox fuel.  Thanks for asking, I ain't gonna quit... H^^ H^^

10-22 is PLENTY, don't add any castor.

    Brett

Offline bob whitney

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Re: Medallion wont start
« Reply #22 on: April 23, 2020, 06:00:20 PM »
what Brett said
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Offline Bootlegger

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Re: Medallion wont start
« Reply #23 on: April 24, 2020, 10:25:12 AM »

  Guy's first I have to think everyone for the help/advice on the Medallion 049 it does run and well, to add a little to it Methanol make a mans eyes water when your hand catches FIRE, no flames, but LOT"s of PAIN!!

 To all of y'all thanks again, L Renger and B Buck the 10-22 worked like the champ that it is, 2 O Z went about 5-6 minutes again THANK Y'ALL, news at 10 P M...

  I also have to think L Renger for the advice about using a heat sink on the Cylinder Head ..  Now got to build a model for it..  Suggestions???
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Medallion wont start
« Reply #24 on: April 24, 2020, 11:14:45 AM »
To all of y'all thanks again, L Renger and B Buck the 10-22 worked like the champ that it is, 2 O Z went about 5-6 minutes again

   With due respect to Larry's experience, it doesn't need a heat sink, it is fine the way it is.

   Note that we all should have learned something about this. It would have been easy to conclude that the fuel draw was inadequate, and it needed a smaller venturi. A smaller venturi would likely make it work with the original fuel, or conversely, it works with a larger venturi if the fuel viscosity is lower. Meaning, with *absolutely no other changes*, you could Get More Power by using a larger venturi (more air) and lower-viscosity fuel (more volatile contents) to get the same mixture. 

     Note also that an alternate solution would be to make the spraybar passages larger, so that enough of the thick fuel would still flow through it with the available suction, which would entail no loss of power compared to the "smaller venturi".

   A third takeaway is that this also explains, to a certain extent, *why it goes lean when you load the engine (slowing it down)*. With a fixed venturi and a fixed fuel metering drag, slowing down the engine reduces the flow of air and thus the fuel suction, but the reduced fuel suction has more effect on the mixture, because the *fuel flow goes down faster than the air flow*. Reduced fuel line drag, from either lower viscosity or making the passages larger, reduces this effect, and tends to make the engine less prone to mixture changes as the load changes.

  In case it is not obvious, what happens to a Fox 35 when you do a corner? The load on the prop increases, slows it down, and it goes lean momentarily. It's also part of why it runs differently and reacts differently when you run Fox Superfuel (29% straight castor), 29% 50/50, and 22%. It's not just the different cooling and lubrication effects, it's also a mixture change - despite the fact that the supply pressure actually goes up as you start the corner. This is, I think, about half the entire 4-2 break effect (the fast part).

    As an example, this is why everyone concluded that the Evo 36 venturi was "way too big". The directions said to use Cool Power, which has something like 12% synthetic oil. Everybody "knew better" and ran GMA or something similar. Guess what, it won't draw thick fuel properly. In addition, you can get it to work on GMA with a smaller venturi - which cuts the power drastically since you are now pumping less air.

     This is what David and I had found about fuel viscosity and fuel line drag over the past 10-12 years. You can greatly effect how the engine runs in the corners, and during maneuvering, by altering the fuel viscosity or fuel line drag. For smaller conventional stunt engines, it's a minor effect, but for very large engines with a huge air flow for a given fuel line/spraybar passage size, it can become a significant effect - no matter how many "engine experts" might think otherwise. Lowering the viscosity of the fuel, and/or running larger fuel tubing and larger spraybar bores, can have a *marked effect* on the way the engine runs in maneuvers.

     Brett

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Medallion wont start
« Reply #25 on: April 24, 2020, 11:35:46 AM »
...     This is what David and I had found about fuel viscosity and fuel line drag over the past 10-12 years. You can greatly effect how the engine runs in the corners, and during maneuvering, by altering the fuel viscosity or fuel line drag. For smaller conventional stunt engines, it's a minor effect, but for very large engines with a huge air flow for a given fuel line/spraybar passage size, it can become a significant effect - no matter how many "engine experts" might think otherwise. Lowering the viscosity of the fuel, and/or running larger fuel tubing and larger spraybar bores, can have a *marked effect* on the way the engine runs in maneuvers....

Oh crap -- since I'm switching to electric, does this mean I have to learn about the viscosity of electrons?  What if my batteries are charged with muons?  Does that markedly change the viscosity?
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Offline pat king

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Re: Medallion wont start
« Reply #26 on: April 24, 2020, 11:46:32 AM »
One of the biggest problems with electric is they don't smell like Nitro/Castor smoke. When they do smoke iot stinks and the motor doesn't run very long before it quits.
My Ringmaster 150 is designed for the Medallion .049, it has won 1st in 1/2A expert stunt and 1st in 1/2A advanced stunt. For a Medallion .049 you want something in the 150 to 175 square inch range.
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Online Larry Renger

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Re: Medallion wont start
« Reply #27 on: April 24, 2020, 02:14:02 PM »
There was only a single run of 051 medallions that was done special for the free flight society. As I recall fewer than 300 were made.

I have a heat sink on my Medallion because it has a Venom piston and cylinder and high compression head. It tended to overheat halfway through the pattern.

It also uses side port pressure tap fuel feed.
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Medallion wont start
« Reply #28 on: April 24, 2020, 02:41:50 PM »
I have a heat sink on my Medallion because it has a Venom piston and cylinder and high compression head. It tended to overheat halfway through the pattern.

It also uses side port pressure tap fuel feed.

  That's not required with a stock unit, or, with a Medallion with a Tee Dee cylinder/piston running suction.

  As far as run quality goes, the stock Medallion 049 is far and away the best 049 for 1/2A stunt, and perfectly capable of pulling a high-end 1/2A stunt plane (like Lou Wolgast's Mirage) through competitive patterns. The only one comparable that I have seen was a Big Mig .061 with some tiny aftermarket venturi, not tons of power for an 061, but remarkably smooth like the Medallion.

    Brett

Online Larry Renger

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Re: Medallion wont start
« Reply #29 on: April 24, 2020, 03:20:44 PM »
It is what it is and the heat sink solved the problem. Reality beats theory every time in my book. I now have a system that runs fantastic with no variation through a full pattern with great power.
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Medallion wont start
« Reply #30 on: April 24, 2020, 05:18:21 PM »
It is what it is and the heat sink solved the problem. Reality beats theory every time in my book. I now have a system that runs fantastic with no variation through a full pattern with great power.

  But unless you are doing something like that, *it doesn't need a heat sink*, that is also reality, and extensively tested for 50ish years. So other people do not need to add a heat sink, that is to solve a particular problem that most people don't have.
 
   Brett

Online Larry Renger

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Re: Medallion wont start
« Reply #31 on: April 25, 2020, 06:50:39 PM »
Quite right, stock Medallions run just fine as is. Mine is no where near stock. With all the stuff I have lying around why would I ever not play games?
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
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Offline FLOYD CARTER

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Re: Medallion wont start
« Reply #32 on: April 30, 2020, 02:16:46 PM »
At the beginning of this thread, Ken Cook listed all possible problems causing poor fuel draw.  I would like to follow all those leads, but I'm unsure how to dismantle the Cox Medallion 15.  The prop driver is fastened to the crank using splines.  It doesn't want to come off, and I don't have a gear puller that will fit.  I find it curious that the plastic venturi has potential to leak everywhere, and the air-tight seal between the venturi and crankcase depends mostly on good luck and wishful thinking.

I've searched everywhere, but can't find any information on dismantling, checking, and assembly of this engine.  Cox supplies a universal tool for unscrewing stuff, but you are on your own as far as procedure, or what to look for.
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Offline Fredvon4

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Re: Medallion wont start
« Reply #33 on: April 30, 2020, 02:55:06 PM »
Remove back cover
Remove cylinder
Remove piston
Screw propeller stud/screw until bottoms out in crank shaft
Set crankcase open end on sturdy surface...
one or two light taps on prop drive screw/stud will remove Prop drive plate and crank shaft will be free
a good spanner or the proper Cox tool needed to unscrew nose collet...anti clockwise
soak in alcohol and heat usually needed to remove carb body...if cracked, old it is brittle...metal and plastic replacements are available

you need cox international...Bernie
https://coxengines.ca/

 and Exmodel engines...Matt
http://www.exmodelengines.com/

and
https://www.mh-aerotools.de/airfoils/cox_frameset.htm

 in your bookmarks
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Medallion wont start
« Reply #34 on: April 30, 2020, 03:32:01 PM »
Quite right, stock Medallions run just fine as is. Mine is no where near stock. With all the stuff I have lying around why would I ever not play games?

   No problem, if anyone knows what is needed to make it go better, you are the expert.

   I am concerned about the idea that a point solution to one set of problems will induce people to do it themselves in a general case. You see it here all the time. The "Head Gasket Patrol" basically runs on the same theory, that if someone, somewhere, once needed an another .005 clearance, that means everyone, everywhere, needs .050.

    Brett

Offline kenneth cook

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Re: Medallion wont start
« Reply #35 on: May 01, 2020, 06:17:20 AM »
                Floyd, even more importantly is the re install of the prop driver back onto the shaft. To dismantle, as mentioned, I like to use the front locking collet and just unscrew it. One thing you don't want to do during this process is slip. It will make that beautiful aluminum ugly real quick. The other thing is to insure that the tooth portion of the spanner tool isn't too long allowing it to protrude into the threads. If it does, it will gall up the threads making it extremely difficult to screw it back on.

                Whenever I install a drive washer back onto a Cox engine, I first obtain the proper threaded allen screw. I believe the thread of the Medallion .15 is a 8-32 going from memory. Keep in mind that the Medallion drive washer is not flat on it's face. This may require washers or a nut to slip over it, don't push on the small portion of the drive washer.  Obtain a nut and washer as well, the larger the washer even better. I screw the nut onto the allen screw and place the washer/washers under the face of the nut and screw the entire assembly into the shaft. I then insure that the entire assembly is screwed as deep as it will go into the shaft. While holding the engine and capturing the allen screw with the proper wrench, use a wrench to back the nut down the screw pushing the drive plate back onto the shaft. This will prevent the drive plate from being installed crooked offering wobbling which you obviously don't want. 

Offline FLOYD CARTER

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Re: Medallion wont start
« Reply #36 on: May 02, 2020, 12:21:34 PM »
Advice to future engine designers.

Avoid odd-ball threads.  Especially super-fine threads, meaning that the slightest crud on the threads will jam it up completely.  Once a tiny portion of any one thread is damaged, you can't fix it (heck, you can hardly even SEE it).  That means buying a bunch of new, expensive parts, if you can even find them.
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Online Larry Renger

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Re: Medallion wont start
« Reply #37 on: May 02, 2020, 08:55:09 PM »
I think the future designers will all be dealing with magnets and wires.
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!


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