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Author Topic: the search for ether for diesel fuel  (Read 3257 times)

Offline Charles Hofacker

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the search for ether for diesel fuel
« on: December 28, 2020, 08:43:00 PM »
Ether has been very difficult to find locally for a long time. Many people have been using starter fluid which contains ether, particularly the John Deere brand which has a high ether content: about 80%, I think. Now it looks like even that source has dried up here. Not even the John Deere dealers around here carry the John Deere brand starter fluid. The only starter fluids I can find locally are 20% or less ether. I looked up the MSDS on them. Does anyone have any suggestions on where to look next?  I'd like to mix my own fuel because I can add the ether just the night before I go out to fly and I can be fairly certain of the content %.

Offline Mike Greb

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Re: the search for ether for diesel fuel
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2020, 10:52:04 PM »
MSR fuel bottles keep diesel fuel well.   I have stored F2c fuel for two years and it still runs fine.

Offline Charles Hofacker

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Re: the search for ether for diesel fuel
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2020, 07:12:05 AM »
Thanks for good info!

Offline Oldenginerod

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Re: the search for ether for diesel fuel
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2020, 03:02:35 PM »
I don't believe the John Deere fluid has been available here Down Under due to our climate, but my local auto parts store has "Master" brand starter fluid which is 50% ether.  Much better than the other starting fluids available, which are areound 20% max, as you said. It is a U.S. product, so you may be able to get hold of some. 
While I haven't mixed any using this product yet, I kind of figure that all you need to do is decant off the content and add 50% volume of oil and you have your typical 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 ratio.  I just count the other 50% in the product as equivalent to kerosene, being Naphtha.  If you can get it, then just add a small amount of diesel ignition improver and that's as good as you need.

https://www.syagencies.com/starting-fluid-312g.html

Online Brett Buck

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Re: the search for ether for diesel fuel
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2020, 04:11:56 PM »
Ether has been very difficult to find locally for a long time. Many people have been using starter fluid which contains ether, particularly the John Deere brand which has a high ether content: about 80%, I think. Now it looks like even that source has dried up here. Not even the John Deere dealers around here carry the John Deere brand starter fluid. The only starter fluids I can find locally are 20% or less ether. I looked up the MSDS on them. Does anyone have any suggestions on where to look next?  I'd like to mix my own fuel because I can add the ether just the night before I go out to fly and I can be fairly certain of the content %.

     I see it on sale at Amazon.com, 99% anhydrous diethyl ether, Carolina Chemical, $85/quart, in a very quick search.

    Brett

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: the search for ether for diesel fuel
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2020, 04:56:35 PM »
     I see it on sale at Amazon.com, 99% anhydrous diethyl ether, Carolina Chemical, $85/quart, in a very quick search.

    Brett

Eeek!  That's probably $5 worth of ether, $80 worth of regulatory compliance.  Or it's the 99% pure part -- ether's even more hydrophilic than methanol.
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: the search for ether for diesel fuel
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2020, 06:51:48 PM »
Eeek!  That's probably $5 worth of ether, $80 worth of regulatory compliance.  Or it's the 99% pure part -- ether's even more hydrophilic than methanol.

   Maybe.  I am just the messenger here and I spent very little time studying the problem. It also appears that the John Deere "premium" starting fluid is still available and per volume, cheaper.

    Brett

Offline Steve Fitton

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Re: the search for ether for diesel fuel
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2020, 01:21:30 PM »
     I see it on sale at Amazon.com, 99% anhydrous diethyl ether, Carolina Chemical, $85/quart, in a very quick search.

    Brett

They won't actually sell that to you.  When I had to order it by the caseload for the lab (4x4litre cans) we had to fill out lots of federal paperwork to indicate we were not a meth(?) lab.
Steve

Offline kenneth cook

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Re: the search for ether for diesel fuel
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2020, 03:02:02 PM »
                 They will sell it . I bought some two months ago. The only thing they want to know aside from your personal info is what your using it for.

Online Arlan McKee

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Re: the search for ether for diesel fuel
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2020, 07:29:08 PM »
At our Memphis lab we use between 400 and 460 liters a year and buy it in 20 liter containers. With our volume of that and other chemicals we pay $177 per 20 liters.
Our price for a 4 liter bottle is $380, which sounds rediculous.
Keep in mind this is pesticide/GC/HPLC grade ether, which means it's as pure as it gets.
My guess is that packaging ether in small containers is incredibly expensive due to its EXTREME flammability and volatility.
Most fires I have seen in our labs are the result of handling ether.

Online Arlan McKee

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Re: the search for ether for diesel fuel
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2020, 09:57:37 PM »
Someone once told me that ether will eventually become shock sensitive and explode if you drop the can? Don't know if that's true but he also said if it's mixed in fuel there's no more problem. Was he right?
Motorman 8)

Yes that can be true. Pure ether forms peroxides in the presence of Oxygen, heat, and UV light.
That's why you only see it in opaque or amber containers with Teflon seals.
Once mixed it becomes stabilized.

Offline Steve Fitton

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Re: the search for ether for diesel fuel
« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2020, 05:39:27 AM »
At our Memphis lab we use between 400 and 460 liters a year and buy it in 20 liter containers. With our volume of that and other chemicals we pay $177 per 20 liters.
Our price for a 4 liter bottle is $380, which sounds rediculous.
Keep in mind this is pesticide/GC/HPLC grade ether, which means it's as pure as it gets.
My guess is that packaging ether in small containers is incredibly expensive due to its EXTREME flammability and volatility.
Most fires I have seen in our labs are the result of handling ether.

Your lab must be running alot of Herbicides to go through that much ether!
Steve

Offline Fredvon4

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Re: the search for ether for diesel fuel
« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2020, 12:17:56 PM »
Amazon right now is not asking me anything but send money

Estimated delivery: Jan. 8, 2021 - Jan. 26, 2021
Items shipped from Carolina Chemical LLC
Diethyl Ether, Anhydrous, ACS Reagent, ≥99.0%, 500ML Contains BHT as Inhibitor
Diethyl Ether, Anhydrous, ACS Reagent, ≥99.0%, 500ML Contains BHT as Inhibitor
$45.51
Qty:
1
Qty: 1
Sold by:Carolina Chemical LLC
Not eligible for Amazon Prime(Learn more)
 Gift options not available.
Choose a delivery option:
Friday, Jan. 8 - Tuesday, Jan. 26
$5.49 - Standard Shipping
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Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: the search for ether for diesel fuel
« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2020, 02:41:28 PM »
Only time I ever bought ether was when I was 15. I marched up to the Pharmacist's desk in the drugstore (Edwards AFB) and told him I wanted to order some. "Why?" "Model engine fuel". "Ok. It comes in 1 lb cans." As I recall, it was about $16. Maybe the same ploy would work for y'all?   D>K Steve
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Online Arlan McKee

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Re: the search for ether for diesel fuel
« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2020, 03:58:43 PM »
Your lab must be running alot of Herbicides to go through that much ether!

It's a 50 hour a week job for 1 person just doing extractions for that method during the busy season. Another girl just runs the vaps. It's also possible that they are using ether for other extractions that I'm not aware of.

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: the search for ether for diesel fuel
« Reply #15 on: January 01, 2021, 08:53:24 AM »
Charles,
Happy New Year!!    You didn't indicate what type of flying you are using your diesels for. For competition racing you should consider the pure ether options. However, for stunt/sport well you could do something cheaper and with a little less top end performance but plenty good. Attached is my spreadsheet that lists various Starter Fluid brands and % ether and % heptane (this is similar to kero). For a simple mix get one of the SF's with at least 40% ether, mix it straight with 25% SAE 40 mineral oil (you need to use mineral oil to clam down the ether, kero normally does this but MO works fine) you could add a few % castor and 1% Amsoil Centene improver. That's it, just mix and go fly. I like the Johnsen Premium SF from NAPA. Hope this helps.

Best,    DennisT

Online Robert Zambelli

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Re: the search for ether for diesel fuel
« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2021, 07:29:41 AM »
This may sound like a dumb question but has anyone ever heard of a substitute for ether in our Diesel (compression ignition) engines?

Bob Z.

Offline pmackenzie

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Re: the search for ether for diesel fuel
« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2021, 01:43:45 PM »
This may sound like a dumb question but has anyone ever heard of a substitute for ether in our Diesel (compression ignition) engines?

Bob Z.

A glow plug and alcohol  ;)

I have one Diesel I would like to run someday, a cheapo Russian one I picked up in Kiev in 88.
Hopefully if it ever happens the starter stuff will still be available.
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Offline Oldenginerod

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Re: the search for ether for diesel fuel
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2021, 01:19:40 AM »
A glow plug and alcohol  ;)

I have one Diesel I would like to run someday, a cheapo Russian one I picked up in Kiev in 88.
Hopefully if it ever happens the starter stuff will still be available.

Pat.  There appears to still be a fairly large divide between the diesel and the glow camps, although those in the USA are certainly beginning to show some interest, even if just out of curiosity.  Cost of fuel unfortunately helps to maintain the novelty factor.
Britain, Australia, New Zealand were dominated by diesels in the 40s, 50s, 60s.  USA seemed to show a particular distaste for diesels, mainly focussing on the oily mess and smell.  Strangely, most diesel enthusiasts cite the smell as their favourite positive outcome. 
While I have no connection to the Cowra club, http://www.cowramac.asn.au/main.html ,  I do enjoy watching the antics of these guys, and in partucular, the ease with which they pick up their plane, fuel it up, flick it into life (with no need for a bothersome glow power source) and just throw it into the sky. It hits the ground, the refuel, flick it and off they go again.  You have to admire the simplicity and their youthful exuberance.

Rod.

Online Brett Buck

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Re: the search for ether for diesel fuel
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2021, 10:03:48 AM »
Pat.  There appears to still be a fairly large divide between the diesel and the glow camps, although those in the USA are certainly beginning to show some interest, even if just out of curiosity.  Cost of fuel unfortunately helps to maintain the novelty factor.
Britain, Australia, New Zealand were dominated by diesels in the 40s, 50s, 60s.  USA seemed to show a particular distaste for diesels, mainly focussing on the oily mess and smell.  Strangely, most diesel enthusiasts cite the smell as their favourite positive outcome.

   It's simpler than that - no one has all that much interest in something that they haven't seen, and most people haven't even heard of. You can't get them, there's no fuel available, and the performance is, charitably, unimpressive. You can't have nostalgic feelings for something you have never heard of.

    What little that people do know about them is that they are extremely fussy, and nearly no one around to help you. I watched diesel combat at the Northwest Regionals one afternoon - a Ringmaster with a McCoy 19 would beat the snot out of them.

     Brett

Online Robert Zambelli

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Re: the search for ether for diesel fuel
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2021, 05:07:14 PM »
WRONG!
Either these guys had crap Diesel engines or they didn't have a clue how to operate them.
I have around 65 Diesels, from .008 CID up to .40 and I'll admit, some of them wouldn't power a @#$% ant's go-kart.

BUT, properly set up, they are great powerplants.

When I was developing the Pat Johnson/Brodak P-40 ARC and ARF for production (Per John's directive, most of these aircraft were sent to me by Sun Models in China) I was in charge of correcting many of the issues to be implemented in the production models.
The design of the model was perfect, the prototype was not.
But I digress.
I kept the prototype ARC for around ten years and had the chance to try a around twenty different engines, including my Diesels.
The best powerplant was a SAITO 40 and right behind that an Aero Tiger 36 and two Diesels.
The Diesels, an Irvine 29 and a PAW 29 were amazing. Super easy to start, two ounces for the pattern and lots of funny smells.
I also tried a number of no-name Diesels that appeared to be around .30 CID. They too performed well.
Believe me, a Ringmaster with a McCoy 19 will in no way "beat the snot" out of a well set up Diesel.
I even flew my 41 ounce Nobler with a PAW 19 Diesel and it flew just fine. Turns out the engine ran well at first and then connecting rod went bad after around 5 flights.
When you witness a poor running Diesel it's either junk from the start or an incompetent pilot.

A lot of Diesels got a bad name because of just plain poor design as well as conversions. Bolting a Diesel head onto a glow engine may cause problems. The Arden conversion would break crankshafts. Same with the OK Cubs and McCoy 049s. Even my PAW 29 needed a small modification due to a design flaw. I've been told that the FP 40 conversion works well but I've not seen one run.

OK, I've ranted enough - let's go find some ether.

Bob Z.




Online Brett Buck

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Re: the search for ether for diesel fuel
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2021, 06:31:25 PM »
WRONG!
Either these guys had crap Diesel engines or they didn't have a clue how to operate them.
I have around 65 Diesels, from .008 CID up to .40 and I'll admit, some of them wouldn't power a @#$% ant's go-kart.

BUT, properly set up, they are great powerplants.


 *Many* people in the US have either only vaguely heard references to model diesels, or never heard of such a thing. Very few people have ever seen one run. It's very hard for anyone here to look back fondly on their memories of diesels *if you have never seen one*.

    Brett

Online Robert Zambelli

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Re: the search for ether for diesel fuel
« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2021, 07:19:46 PM »
Good point, Brett - I agree!

But keep in mind that championships have been won with Diesels - in Europe, not the USA.

As I recall, Tony Eflander (SP) won either the British or European championship with his Freebird, powered by a PAW 49.

And, for what it's worth, some of the best Diesels I've ever run are Webra. Not sure how many sizes they make but their .09 and .15 are phenomenal. MVVS are also well made, reliable and very durable. And, as I mentioned, the Irvine is quite formidable.

Bob Z.

Online Brett Buck

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Re: the search for ether for diesel fuel
« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2021, 08:15:05 PM »
The man that makes the PA engines got his start making diesels. How's your mind, blown?

     Given that I have known that for 35 years, and known of Henry Nelson for 40+ years, no, not so much.

     Brett


p.s. 1961  - "Works Modified" Oliver Tiger MkIII (.37 HP at 18000)  VS stock Tee Dee 15 (.47 HP at 17500), 27% more power at a lower RPM and just under .39 HP even on FAI fuel (which must have been quite a fun afternoon trying to start it on that...)!:

http://sceptreflight.com/Model%20Engine%20Tests/Cox%20Tee%20Dee%2015%20%281%29.html


p.p.s. I am well and truly ashamed at not knowing this, for obvious reasons - Fox 15xx ("racing" slantplug, like on my 2010 Hurl Trophy) .42 HP at 20500 (but I beg you, stand behind it if you try!)
« Last Edit: January 04, 2021, 09:20:20 PM by Brett Buck »

Offline pmackenzie

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Re: the search for ether for diesel fuel
« Reply #24 on: January 04, 2021, 08:25:58 PM »
He got his start making Diesels, but made his money making glow engines :)

(Probably made more money making non-toyairplane stuff of course)
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: the search for ether for diesel fuel
« Reply #25 on: January 04, 2021, 08:57:23 PM »
He got his start making Diesels, but made his money making glow engines :)

   And, everything he did, he immediately reset the bar - T/R engines, Combat, Pylon. Stunt engines were the least of his accomplishments, but only because everything else he did almost immediately obsoleted everything existing at the time.  Not quite that in stunt, even then they were/are wildly successful.

   I know from *very long and close experience* that stunt people drive engine guys absolutely nuts, because you can't really measure or objectively define what makes one better than the other, and most stunt people ask for the *wrong things* - which they duly supply, then they get complaints about!

    Brett
« Last Edit: January 04, 2021, 09:30:55 PM by Brett Buck »

Offline Dane Martin

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Re: the search for ether for diesel fuel
« Reply #26 on: January 04, 2021, 09:28:49 PM »
Not to pile on. But I've been involved in aeromodeling of some sort for 30 years. I've never even been on the same field as a running diesel engine.
I have a couple myself, but have never got around to trying it.

Offline pmackenzie

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Re: the search for ether for diesel fuel
« Reply #27 on: January 04, 2021, 09:51:31 PM »
 

   I know from *very long and close experience* that stunt people drive engine guys absolutely nuts, because you can't really measure or objectively define what makes one better than the other, and most stunt people ask for the *wrong things* - which they duly supply, then they get complaints about!

    Brett

Around when the PA engines first came out I asked Henry about the exhaust timing.
 It was a long time ago, but I remember exactly what he said:

"It's not open at all"  :)
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: the search for ether for diesel fuel
« Reply #28 on: January 04, 2021, 09:53:23 PM »
Around when the PA engines first came out I asked Henry about the exhaust timing.
 It was a long time ago, but I remember exactly what he said:

"It's not open at all"  :)

   It would run better if it was opening for about 5% longer....

    Brett

Offline pmackenzie

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Re: the search for ether for diesel fuel
« Reply #29 on: January 04, 2021, 09:56:55 PM »
My other favorite Henry quote:

"Duke Fox is an idiot"

Then he quickly acknowledged that Duke's .15 had won a W/C in combat, something his .15 hadn't managed at the time.
(I don't think it ever did?)
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Offline Dave Hull

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Re: the search for ether for diesel fuel
« Reply #30 on: January 04, 2021, 10:03:49 PM »
Danish,

You musta been too much stuck in Lost Wages, then. We got smelly diesels running here in SoCal.

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Offline Dane Martin

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Re: the search for ether for diesel fuel
« Reply #31 on: January 05, 2021, 02:41:20 PM »
Danish,

You musta been too much stuck in Lost Wages, then. We got smelly diesels running here in SoCal.

The Divot
"Compression settings by appointment, only. Limit: one per customer."

Haha probably. I'll hit you up next time I'm flying fast down there. I'd really enjoy seeing a diesel run

Offline FLOYD CARTER

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Re: the search for ether for diesel fuel
« Reply #32 on: January 05, 2021, 04:15:00 PM »
I've flown stunters with diesels for a very long time.  I think diesels are easy to operate, and are usually reliable.  This is my SMALL FRY, a 1949 design by our late friend Ron Prentice.  Engine is also a 1949 British Elfin 1.8cc.
89 years, but still going (sort of)
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Offline Brian Hampton

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Re: the search for ether for diesel fuel
« Reply #33 on: January 05, 2021, 05:02:49 PM »
   
p.s. 1961  - "Works Modified" Oliver Tiger MkIII (.37 HP at 18000)  VS stock Tee Dee 15 (.47 HP at 17500), 27% more power at a lower RPM and just under .39 HP even on FAI fuel (which must have been quite a fun afternoon trying to start it on that...)!:
You're comparing apples to oranges. The Oliver Tiger is designed for team racing where low fuel consumption plays a huge part of the game where pit stops are necessary due to the 10cc fuel tank size. The Cox Tee Dee is designed for high HP/revs with 30% nitro (as in that test) and fuel consumption is immaterial.

Offline phil c

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Re: the search for ether for diesel fuel
« Reply #34 on: January 05, 2021, 05:48:34 PM »
Amazon right now is not asking me anything but send money

Estimated delivery: Jan. 8, 2021 - Jan. 26, 2021
Items shipped from Carolina Chemical LLC
Diethyl Ether, Anhydrous, ACS Reagent, ≥99.0%, 500ML Contains BHT as Inhibitor
Diethyl Ether, Anhydrous, ACS Reagent, ≥99.0%, 500ML Contains BHT as Inhibitor
$45.51
Qty:
1
Qty: 1
Sold by:Carolina Chemical LLC
Not eligible for Amazon Prime(Learn more)
 Gift options not available.
Choose a delivery option:
Friday, Jan. 8 - Tuesday, Jan. 26
$5.49 - Standard Shipping

That's extremely higher quality than needed for running model engines.  Hence the price.  It's analytical grade laboratory reagent.
phil Cartier

Online Arlan McKee

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Re: the search for ether for diesel fuel
« Reply #35 on: January 05, 2021, 08:06:29 PM »
That's extremely higher quality than needed for running model engines.  Hence the price.  It's analytical grade laboratory reagent.

The problem is, other than cans of starting fluid, that's the only way it's packaged for sale on a non-commercial/industrial  scale.

Online Brett Buck

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Re: the search for ether for diesel fuel
« Reply #36 on: January 05, 2021, 08:34:44 PM »
You're comparing apples to oranges. The Oliver Tiger is designed for team racing where low fuel consumption plays a huge part of the game where pit stops are necessary due to the 10cc fuel tank size. The Cox Tee Dee is designed for high HP/revs with 30% nitro (as in that test) and fuel consumption is immaterial.

   Oy gevalt.

    Brett


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