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Author Topic: Terry Rollins nva. Anybody use them?  (Read 2719 times)

Offline frank mccune

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Terry Rollins nva. Anybody use them?
« on: November 18, 2018, 10:14:46 AM »
         Hello All:

         With an engine deal last Summer, I received some nva. made by Terry Rollins.  I installed a couple in a HP .40 engines and they appeared to be the cat's pajamas.  Has anybody used these nva.? If so, what are your opinions?



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Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Terry Rollins nva. Anybody use them?
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2018, 11:58:23 AM »
I've never heard of them. Hard to beat Randy Smith's needle valve assemblies. I believe he stocks the one with the in-feed on the same side as the needle, which would be simply awesome for some engine installations.  y1 Steve
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Offline frank mccune

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Re: Terry Rollins nva. Anybody use them?
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2018, 02:45:21 PM »
      Hi Steve:

      The Rollins nva also has the fuel barb and the adjusting knob on the same side.  It is on the intake side at a 90 degree angle to the needle valve.  The Rollins nva has a needle that only projects into the throat of the carb a very small amount.  This needle looks like a very small hypodermic needle and is adjustable for the amount of fuel draw.  It is a very nice nva.  I was a bit skeptal about using this thing, but it works like a charm.  It is also fully adjustable.

     Awhile back, people were making nva. that had a hypodermic projecting into the venturi.  With the Rollins item, there is no obstruction of the venturi by a spray bar  I have my needle flush with venturi and it works very well.  The Rollins has a large opening in the venture that still draws fuel very well.
 
                                                                                                                                                      Be well,

                                                                                                                                                      Frank McCune
                                                                                                                                       

     I would like to find a few more of these gems!

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Terry Rollins nva. Anybody use them?
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2018, 09:19:04 AM »

     Awhile back, people were making nva. that had a hypodermic projecting into the venturi.  With the Rollins item, there is no obstruction of the venturi by a spray bar  I have my needle flush with venturi and it works very well.  The Rollins has a large opening in the venture that still draws fuel very well.

   Hypodermic?   

   You don't want the fuel induced along the wall of the venturi, you want it in the middle somewhere, or at least far enough from the wall to make sure it doesn't just dribble down the side.

     Brett

Offline frank mccune

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Re: Terry Rollins nva. Anybody use them?
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2018, 02:08:02 PM »
           Hi Brett:

           One would normally think that the fuel should be introduced into the intake in the middle of the airflow.  This makes more sense than have the raw fuel dribbling down the inside of the venturi.  However since this nva. works very well how can I argue with success?  Occam's Razor type of a thing?

         Do any of you people remember various methods that were supposed to vaporize the fuel more efficiently? The one method had coarse "threads" cut into the interior walls of the hole in the crankshaft to not only mix the charge but to add a bit of a supercharging to the engine due to the threads pushing the charge into the engine.  This was an effort to churn the air/fuel mixture to better atomize the charge for a more efficient burn.  Another scheme was to have cuts made into the crank disk to act as impellors to better autotomize the mix for more efficiency.  It was also claimed to "supercharge" the engine at the same time.  I have not seen these mods used in production engines, so it must have not been a success.

       In any case A Happy Thanksgiving to All.

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Offline Dave Hull

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Re: Terry Rollins nva. Anybody use them?
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2018, 04:42:47 PM »
Frank,

If you are only looking at old glow engines and low end modern sport engines (HP 40; ST35, 46, 60; OS FP, LA, and clones) you aren't going to see anything but old school crank geometries.  That's ok for sport/casual stunt flying. It works. But if you are going to talk about design features like crank fluting and internal flow features, then go look at the high performance production car and buggy engines. They definitely use fluted crank disk designs. So, by your Occam's Razor logic, these features are necessary if you want the high power and excellent fuel efficiency that they achieve. Note that the features may have nothing to do with atomization or supercharging--but we don't care about the theory because whatever it is doing works, right? Occam's Razor!

Dave

Here is a photo of an OS Max .21 crank.  There are a ton more out there to look at. Note that many are "stuffed" meaning that the forward end of the internal passage is filled and/or blended. Also, that many are "slugged" meaning that tungsten weights are embedded in the disk to allow more favorable (creative?) disk geometries and still achieve acceptable balance.

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=PBVsOeHt&id=FD95D4A8E378DF030732D072402E9BC283FFEA6F&thid=OIP.PBVsOeHt05Jn8058iKkyBAHaHa&mediaurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.absolutehobbyz.com%2fassets%2fimages%2fimages%2fosmg22412000.jpg&exph=500&expw=500&q=os+max+18TZ+crankshaft&simid=608029318674646385&selectedIndex=105&ajaxhist=0

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Terry Rollins nva. Anybody use them?
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2018, 12:21:29 AM »
           One would normally think that the fuel should be introduced into the intake in the middle of the airflow.  This makes more sense than have the raw fuel dribbling down the inside of the venturi.  However since this nva. works very well how can I argue with success?  Occam's Razor type of a thing?

   Doing that does not necessarily give the most power, but for stunt it seems to be much more consistent than having the fuel variously dribble down the side, atomize correctly, and build up drops that then break off. 

    Can you maybe post a picture of this "hypodermic" needle, because I can't envision what it is you are describing.

     Brett

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Terry Rollins nva. Anybody use them?
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2018, 07:48:28 AM »
   This is all pretty much what is referred to as a "spigot" type NVA??  It can be achieved by taking the NVA out of an old OS  R/C carb, drill and tap the venturi at a convenient place, screw in the NVA and lock in place at the correct depth with the original lock nut. And some where along the line through the years, didn't someone discover that the typical true venturi set up, like what is common of a lot of Super Tigre engines, works better if you put a tiny eyelet through the hole so it carries out into the center of the venturi? I think this goes back to the early days of the tuned pipe programs with the OS .40/.46 VF.  Brett, something you and Dave F figured out?
   Type at you later,
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Terry Rollins nva. Anybody use them?
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2018, 10:39:57 AM »
   This is all pretty much what is referred to as a "spigot" type NVA??  It can be achieved by taking the NVA out of an old OS  R/C carb, drill and tap the venturi at a convenient place, screw in the NVA and lock in place at the correct depth with the original lock nut. And some where along the line through the years, didn't someone discover that the typical true venturi set up, like what is common of a lot of Super Tigre engines, works better if you put a tiny eyelet through the hole so it carries out into the center of the venturi? I think this goes back to the early days of the tuned pipe programs with the OS .40/.46 VF.  Brett, something you and Dave F figured out?

   It was definitely NOT something David and I figured out. The original idea was from a very interesting and useful article by the usual source of actual engineering information, Frank Williams, called the "fuel post venturi".

     The original idea was to see if you could get larger venturis/more power with the same fuel suction, or the same power with better fuel suction, which it does in many practical situations, over a smooth-bore venturi with a flush inlet. We all read it, said it was interesting, and them moved on.

   Not long after, the WC in Germany (and before they left), David had a problem with his engine frequently breaking into a hard two-stroke on the outside part of the square 8. I had previously had exactly the same issue with a different engines, and so had Paul, with Paul and I concluding independently that we just couldn't make that engine work, and returning to the 40VF. I actually switched the night before qualifying at the 96 NATs. And all the runners of the same engine at that NATs had either the same issue, or, they had detuned the engine so much to prevent it that they were obviously way down on overall power, usually with more head clearance or less nitro, which sort of papered over the 4-2 break power difference, and made it livable. David had gone to the WC with this issue, and had problems the entire time.

   Then he noticed that Billy's engine seemed to run a lot better in this regard. After it was over, he somehow discovered that the difference was that Billy was running the Frank Williams "fuel post" system. He came back, made one, put it in, immediately vastly better. Instead of breaking hard in the outside part of the square 8 90% of the time, the incidence went down to about 5% - very occasionally. About the same time, David discovered the value of sealing the spraybar to the case, which made it run much steadier on the ground, and between those two things, he was off to the races, and has been one of the favorites ever since.

      I came into this largely to tell people about it, since it was such a common issue (and still is among those who are unwilling to try it). I even helpfully pointed it out to one Top 5 competitor, because his engine was surging up and down on the ground to a remarkable degree (no spraybar seal) and also went screeching lean on the outside part of every square 8 (flush inlet venturi). I got a rather histrionic response telling me it was supposed to do that - just like all the Fox guys, who considered the burp/quit to be normal and desireable behavior, even when it quit outright.

   Since then, I got the RO-Jett 61 BSE "mistake" version, which also had a flush-outlet venturi (of very large diameter, guaranteeing it would never be full of fuel) and it had the very desirable characteristics of running the same way on insides and outsides, except for sometimes going dead rich on insides. The solution was to get Jett to make a longer venturi with a smaller hole, into which one could insert the smallest SIG eyelet to make a fuel post, just like Frank's original. This cleaned up all the odd run characteristics and it's far an away the most symmetrical engine any of us have ever used. And the extra power you could get by running a larger diameter/more choke area was also welcome.

    That's the story. Frank Williams did the seminal work, Billy found that it solved the "hard lean outsides" issue, David adopted it to tremendous success, and   I told people about it and adopted the same system for the RO-Jett after diagnosing the occasional issues I had with it.

   Since then (2003), and by paying attention to what other people were doing with 4-strokes during the purported "revolution", David and I  have further refined the understanding by discovered that the fuel flow restrictions also have an effect, particularly on larger engines, and cause some of the "funnies" we were never able to get rid of. This from experimenting with fuel viscosity and fuel tubing, and spraybars.

     In this case, I have no idea what is meant by "hypodermic". I envisioned something like a fuel post/"spigot" as I called it on SSW, but how that relates to a hypodermic needle, I have no idea at all, so I assume I am not seeing it right. It would take one damn big "hypodermic" needle to pass enough fuel for a PA75, horse-sized.

      Brett

Offline RandySmith

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Re: Terry Rollins nva. Anybody use them?
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2018, 01:46:56 PM »
To add to Brett's  story. I have been using what I call  fuel post venturis since the 1970s, I first heard about these from a person who told me about a Russian speed flyer  using Hypo needles , and I first saw them made by Scott Bair back in the 70s, many of his engines had either homemade fuel post, or he  took OS  RC  Needle assemblies and since these had the fuel pick-up and needle all on the same side, He machined a venturi block that was threaded, He then  screwed them into the side of the venturi, The end would stick out into the center venturi hole, and made a  fuel post venturi, He could also adjust the hole size, by running it in , or out farther into the venturi, This would increase/decrease the size.
I saw this and it fit well for me to make true venturis for engines that did not have the carb hold down like  Super Tigers  or  OPS engines, The  OS engines were very hard to make true venturis for, and  Scott's  solution fixed that problem.  I used his solution in many of the  OS  HP  and OPS engines I built for people starting in the 80s, and  in a few of the bored  or home built ones I made
I also use the OS  RC  NVAs  in engines I setup like the  Evolution 36s, HPs and OS engines,  many people are flying with these.
Scott said the OS 10 or 15  Needle bar assembly was best, and finest, and he used them on engines up to 88 in size.  I still have a 74 that uses a  OS 10  RC needle.

As far as the all on one side NVAs,  I made them from Super Tiger R/C  bars for my COMOs and  ST engines, and others that had the muffler on the conventional side, It made life a lot easier when adjusting the needle. Later in the 90s  Henry Nelson made them for me, which was a lot lees trouble, and I got a better  unit, with a  stainless non rust needle, stronger needle, and a NVA that was sealed and worked much better all around

Randy

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Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: Terry Rollins nva. Anybody use them?
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2018, 08:32:14 PM »
By Golly .



Who in the heck is ' Orston ' .

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Terry Rollins nva. Anybody use them?
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2018, 10:50:05 PM »
By Golly .

      That is an "OS Remote Needle", AKA the metering block from an OS RC carb. They sold it separately as part of a remote needle kit for years - it's the same as an OS-20FP RN metering block, and you can get more by taking apart OS Carburetors. I had one on a Fox 35 in about 1990 - worked exactly as well as anything else, which anyone can read as they wish.

  There is nothing like a hypodermic needle in it, if that is what you intended to demonstrate. There is what amounts to a fuel post like almost every RC carb ever made.

      Brett

Offline RandySmith

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Re: Terry Rollins nva. Anybody use them?
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2018, 01:56:07 AM »
By Golly .



Who in the heck is ' Orston ' .

The picture you show  is how  I setup  Evolution engines, and  a  few  HPs  and  OSs, other I used a 1 side needle valve, or  a  Super Tiger  RC  Needle assembly from a  40 -60, I used a  few  OS 10 Needle assemblies out of  RC carbs, since  Scott had such good luck with the,  But the  OS 2A  I think from the  20 25 FPs  worked just as well.
I posted several pictures of  many types of fuel post venturis  I had made over the  years,  NONE of mine  used  Hypo needles, as Brett stated earlier they are  TOO small for  our use,  but  maybe  not for  15 size  racing engines

Also the  picture you show is a good way  to do  OPS engines  too. You have a little bit of adjustment  with the  nut on the end, you can run it in or out  to affect fuel post depth

Randy

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Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: Terry Rollins nva. Anybody use them?
« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2018, 08:54:28 PM »
Threw it on as it seemed relevant , Id found it on ebay or somewhere .

Intresting ' the small sig brass guides as a fuel post , got some .

One can worry about the tube & spray bar hole alignment .

a couple of modern O S 15 waisted ( smaller dia thru venturie ) std spray bar assys I have , with O rings ,
arnt a succes on a .35 max . Unscrew them to the point the needle falls out , they still wont ' 4-2 ' rich .

Figure the fuel outlet holes To Small . wondered about that with the Sig Things , but ones I have measure I think 1 mm bore .

Offline frank mccune

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Re: Terry Rollins nva. Anybody use them?
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2018, 08:33:00 AM »
      Hello All:

      Yes, you all showed similar nva set ups that look like the Terry Rollins nva.  Can you post a list of which RC nva can be converted to this type of nva.?  I will look thriugh my "junk" to see what I may cobble together.  I am looking for a replacement for my remote nva OS .40 nva. to locate it to the front of the case.

                                                                                                                                                     Tia To all,

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Offline George Truett

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Re: Terry Rollins nva. Anybody use them?
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2018, 10:12:37 AM »
If it's Terry Rollins from the Fort Smith area, he's on RC Groups from time to time.  You may want to check with him, his user name is tlrascal.

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Terry Rollins nva. Anybody use them?
« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2018, 10:21:48 AM »
      Yes, you all showed similar nva set ups that look like the Terry Rollins nva.  Can you post a list of which RC nva can be converted to this type of nva.?  I will look thriugh my "junk" to see what I may cobble together.  I am looking for a replacement for my remote nva OS .40 nva. to locate it to the front of the case.

  If you have the old OS remote needle system (which works fine and doesn't really need to be changed for engine run reasons) then doing what Matt shows is the most obvious way to do it. I don't think there are a lot of other ways to adopt it for front use.

    I think most RC carburetors use a similar arrangement, but I have no specifics on which ones work for this purpose.

      Brett

Offline RandySmith

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Re: Terry Rollins nva. Anybody use them?
« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2018, 01:16:42 PM »
The one for an  OS 10   OS 15 ,  OS  10 FSR and the  OS 2A part,  and  most anyone with this type architecture  fr4om OS 10 thru OS 40 Carbs will work.
And another bonus is you can screw them in or out to adjust size, and you can  angle  the  needle  back toward the  rear so no need  for a  rear needle
A very good way to make an induction system if you can;t have a true venturi

Randy

Offline Terry Rollins

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Re: Terry Rollins nva. Anybody use them?
« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2019, 08:13:55 PM »
Frank,  I appreciate the good words and comments.  The engine pictured is not one I supply.  My venturis are much longer and are smaller bore.  The needle valve assembly, NVA, is made from the needle assembly from the HP 40 R/C engine I use to build the control line engine.  I have to replace the carb anywaY SO WHY THROW THE nva AWAY.  I do some airfoiling around the needle outlet and you do have some adjustable ability but obviously you only have a small range and then you have to go 360 degrees to get the inlet spigot to line up.  Fortunately the NVA thread is very fine so a full turn doesn't make a real lot of difference which is good. 
My health has not been reaql good but I am recently on oxygen and am going to see about an ablation procedure in about a week.  I have been able to get into the shop and do some machine work, which by the way I simply love, and am probably going to release another batch of engines.  I only do ST V60's, ST G21/46 and HP 40's but I may try a couple of HP 60's if there is some demand.  I also had ST venturis with the 360 degree annular discharge but I only have enough of those to do the engines I have.
I appreciate the good comments and I will share a little story with you.  I sold a couple of ST V60's to a fellow a few years ago.  Someone had mentioned they wanted a couple on Stuka Stunt and I mentioned I would have a batch coming up and he asked how many I had and I told him I wasn't sure.  He immediately jumped on the forum and said I wouldn't buy anything from a guy who doesn't know how many engines he has, can he not count.  I explained that I check to make sure the bore is square and the crankshafts straight and some other things that "should" ,be done to make an engine ready to sell.  The fellow that had purchased the engines from me before came on the site and said that when he got my engines he immediately sent them to Tom Lay who was alive at the time. RIP, and told Tom to do whatever they needed to make them the best you could get and Tom sent them back to him and said there was nothing he could do to improve them and that they were the best he had ever seen.  He posted this up on Stuka Stunt and that was the last that was said about getting engines from me.  Are mine as good as they used to be?  Probably not as I am getting older and not able to work as long as I used to but I still provide a pretty good engine and I still have a few tricks up my sleeve.  So once again Frank thank you for the kind words. H^^


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