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Author Topic: Super Tigre 46  (Read 9366 times)

Offline Allan Perret

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Super Tigre 46
« on: May 17, 2009, 09:34:50 AM »
What is recommended fuel ? 
Getting ready to use one for the first time. 
I wasnt flying stunt back in the glory days of the Super Tigre's..
What are materials of piston / sleeve ??
Will be using on a profile around 46~48 oz. 
What are some good props to try, prefer wood ?
Allan Perret
AMA 302406
Slidell, Louisiana

Offline Ralph Wenzel (d)

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Re: Super Tigre 46
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2009, 07:58:20 PM »
Fuel - - Powermaster 5-22 (50-50 Castor/synthetic) or 10-22 (on a hot day or at altitude)

Iron piston ring running in a chromed, steel liner. (New rings available from Frank Bowman - Even the other engine rebuilders use his rings!)

It'll be a good performer at that weight. Get a good (non-ST) muffler

Props - 12-6, 12-5, or these possibly trimmed to 11½

Make sure the nose is solid! The G21/.46 doesn't shake like a Fox .35, but . . .

(Too many irons; not enough fire)

Ralph Wenzel
AMA 495785 League City, TX

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Super Tigre 46
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2009, 11:09:46 PM »
Fuel - - Powermaster 5-22 (50-50 Castor/synthetic) or 10-22 (on a hot day or at altitude)

Iron piston ring running in a chromed, steel liner. (New rings available from Frank Bowman - Even the other engine rebuilders use his rings!)

It'll be a good performer at that weight. Get a good (non-ST) muffler

Props - 12-6, 12-5, or these possibly trimmed to 11½

Make sure the nose is solid! The G21/.46 doesn't shake like a Fox .35, but . . .



    For models of that weight (and all of mine were in that range (with about 625 sq inch or so)) I would suggest looking into 11 to 11.5" diameter, and maybe 5.5" of pitch to start with. I don't think you will have a lot of luck with anything below 5" of pitch, but the lower you can get without running out of "breathing room" on the engine the better. At this weight, there's no reason to run the larger diameters and you will get a strong run but soft break with this type of prop. A strong engine will turn a 13-6 or even a 13-5 well enough to be useful but the break you get will not be what you want on this size airplane. A lot of guys ran props like the 10-6 Tornado 3-blade back in the day, and that actually works surprisingly well on 48 oz airplanes. I was running a Bolly 11.25-6.5 3-blade depitched to about 5.5 at the end of the era. It was a lot less load than a Rev-Up 11.5-5.8=>6.3 2-blade, even when it was cleaned up.

   With the stock venturi, 5% will work. But it will be pretty feeble. Even at sea level I ran 10, and later 15%. With anything bigger than stock venturis, forget 5%. The last hurrah for the ST46 was David's 6th place at the 89(?) Team Trials, and that was with 20% Cool Power with a bunch of castor added. You definitely need a BLEND - not straight castor. Straight castor will glue the ring in the groove and lose compression.

   Break it in normally. After about 1/2 hour of break-in cycling, check the ring. To see if you have a good ring, check the compression forwards and backwards. If it's grossly different you will probably need a new ring. A good ring, properly seated, will have very good compression forwards and backwards. If it doesn't have good compression both ways, set it up on the test stand with a 10-4 Rev-Up or equivalent and run it, just short of peaked out, for about 5 minutes. Let it cool, and check again. If it still fails, you probably need a new ring. A good stock ring, properly broken-in, will look brownish and much darker than the gray piston. The ring fit is *everything* - nothing will fix it if it doesn't have a good ring, and if you have a good ring, there's nothing you need to do to the rest of it. NO modifications are necessary to anything else.

    Brett

Offline Greg L Bahrman

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Re: Super Tigre 46
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2009, 09:44:39 PM »
<Iron piston ring running in a chromed, steel liner.>

I have never seen a stock ST46 with a chrome sleeve. Did the factory do this ???


Greg Bahrman, AMA 312522
Simi Valley, Ca.

Offline Ralph Wenzel (d)

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Re: Super Tigre 46
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2009, 10:37:24 PM »
Yeah. The first G21/.46 engines all had chromed liners. I can still remember the bitchin' and moanin' (and accusations of false advertising) when they stopped chroming the sleeves in the late '70s (might have been early '80s . . .). ST maintained that it wasn't "false advertising" 'cause the crankshafts were still chromed.

(Too many irons; not enough fire)

Ralph Wenzel
AMA 495785 League City, TX

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Super Tigre 46
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2009, 11:10:08 PM »
<Iron piston ring running in a chromed, steel liner.>

I have never seen a stock ST46 with a chrome sleeve. Did the factory do this ???

   Yes. I have had some differences of opinion with various people over which where chrome and which weren't, but early on they all were, and at the end none were. Where it stopped is the point of debate - I agree with Ralph, it was sometime in the 70's, but when, who knows. There were a tremendous number of variations but they were all pretty good as long as you have a good ring. There were fewer variations than the ST35, I never saw two of those that were the same.

     If I had a stuffer crank engine, based on information from EricV, I would cut off the stuffer band before it breaks on its own. Other than that, everything else is fine straight out of the box.
   
    Brett

Offline RandySmith

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Re: Super Tigre 46
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2009, 11:57:56 AM »
What is recommended fuel ? 
Getting ready to use one for the first time. 
I wasnt flying stunt back in the glory days of the Super Tigre's..
What are materials of piston / sleeve ??
Will be using on a profile around 46~48 oz. 
What are some good props to try, prefer wood ?

Hi Alan

You will find that a huge number of props work with the ST 46, depending on what is needed for your particular setup.
We used Rev-up 12 x 5 at full span or cut to 11.5, This was before Bolly props,and as Brett mentioned Bolly has many props that worked well.
 Many other props work well too, The BYO 12 x 5, Top Flight 12 x 5, Rev-Up 11 x 6 EW, this will depend on what plane, how much weight, size, etc
In what is out there today to buy, The BYO 11x6 11 x 5  12x 5  ... 12x6  Zinger pro series  12 x 5, Eric Rule has some very good wood props that may work also, I know some are using the Power point TF props on 46s. So you have a lot to choose from.

I always used 50-50 oil with about 23% total in mine.  The ST 46 will pull as 46 to 48 ounce profile with little effort, as it is a very  strong motor.
The engine ,if new needs to be broken in very slow and carefully, As Brett stated The early ones, without muffler lugs were chromed, Every St 46 I had seen with muffler lugs did not have a chrome liner stock. Also the early chromed liner were much thinner than the later motors.
The chrome liners take more running time for ring breakin than the newer ones do, The rings are the key to any motor that uses them as Brett stated. The BIG problem with ST 46 rings were, many had zero gap when sent.
 These would heat up as soon as you run them, the gaps would touch and the ring would start to wear flat on part of it from the heat.
 If you were not very careful ,one run like this would ruin the ring were it would never seal right.
Even many of the replacement rings ST sent would have no gap, replacing the ring without measure and setup would result in the same results.
I have setup 100s of ST 46s and I always used .003 to .004 initial gap on chrome motors and .002 to .003 on Steel ones that were not chromed.
If the sleeve was honed with a coarse cross hatch (the swirling scratches cut into the sleeve in 2 spiraling directions) you could set the gap at .001, as the ring would wear and open up much more quickly.
When you got a great ring seal it lasted for a while, as long as you didn't get a lean run.
Other things that would benefit the ST 46 and make it a better motor was to replace the venturie with a true venturie or block off 3/4 of the groove cut into the fuel feed part of the ST venturie.
This helps with stopping the surging at the end of the tank.
 Also the stock ST 46 venturie was pretty small, as the ones came with .150 to .157 diameter, We used 160 to 175 diameter holes in them, however the stock small one will work in the small plane you are talking about flying. There are many other things that will improve the ST 46 but that is another thread.

Regards
Randy

Offline Allan Perret

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Re: Super Tigre 46
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2009, 01:27:25 PM »
Brett and Randy:
Guess I should have told you guys the rest of the story.  I am building Don Hutchinson's profile Stearman.  Its a 40 size bird,  36" span, 530" area.  Plans also show 11" prop.   But being scale it has the short nose of the full scale bird with the big radial.  Plan calls for 3.5oz of nose weight to get the CG right.  So instead of a 40 and 3.5oz of lead,  I have this Tigre 46 laying around (came with a used model I bought 10 years ago) doing nothing.  I figure I'll put the Tigre 46 on it and have a reserve of power.  That would allow me to run it in a steady 4 cycle for a more realistic sound.  I realized it might be overpowered but figure if necessary I could tame it with smaller venturi.  Like I said I'm not familiar with the run of the Tigre's and didn't realize when I made the decision to use it that the 46 has the power more like a 60 than a 40, at least that's what it sounds like you guys are saying.   It  will have the extra drag associated with biplanes,  and in my case I am adding a dummy scale radial engine, which will be additional drag.  Wont be that big of a deal if it doesnt work out because I am setting up the front with aluminun motor plates which will make it easy to swap out motors.  I also have Fox Silver 40  and Saito 40 as back ups..     
Allan Perret
AMA 302406
Slidell, Louisiana

Offline Balsa Butcher

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Re: Super Tigre 46
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2009, 01:42:08 PM »
One thing to consider is that the ST-46 is not much heavier than a 40FP type engine.  They do use more fuel than though.  I don't know how big  tank you can fit on that airplane but it might be a consideration if you plan to fly the pattern.  8)
Pete Cunha
Sacramento CA.
AMA 57499

Offline Allan Perret

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Re: Super Tigre 46
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2009, 02:55:20 PM »
One thing to consider is that the ST-46 is not much heavier than a 40FP type engine.  They do use more fuel than though.  I don't know how big  tank you can fit on that airplane but it might be a consideration if you plan to fly the pattern.  8)

Definitely plan to fly the pattern.  Tank is custom, it fits in a window thru the fuse between the bearers, sticks out a little on both sides.   Would be easy to make it bigger if necessary.  If I use smaller than normal venturi,  fuel consumption should be less than what most are  accustom to.
I could always use a stock muffler if I need the weight.
Allan Perret
AMA 302406
Slidell, Louisiana

Offline RandySmith

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Re: Super Tigre 46
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2009, 02:59:19 PM »
Hi Allan

The ST 46 is not as powerful as a 60, but is a good motor, You will not have a problem with being over powered with a Bi plane, you can alway use more power for Bi planes. They have much drag, the 46 is a good choice for you, weight is not an issue and you can use a tube type muffler, I don't think fuel tank size will be either

Randy

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Super Tigre 46
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2009, 09:06:41 PM »
Like I said I'm not familiar with the run of the Tigre's and didn't realize when I made the decision to use it that the 46 has the power more like a 60 than a 40, at least that's what it sounds like you guys are saying. 

   I don't think that was what I was saying!  If I did, then disregard. The 46 is a nice mild stunt engine but not in the league with most stunt 60's like the PA or RO-Jett even on a header muffler. I think an AeroTiger 36 is a more effective stunt engine than an ST46. The ST is *no match* for any common 40 like the VF. It had decent power for the day, but that day was 35 years ago.

    Knowing your plans, the system discussed above should work out just fine.

    Brett

Offline Allan Perret

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Re: Super Tigre 46
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2009, 10:13:49 PM »
   I don't think that was what I was saying!  If I did, then disregard. The 46 is a nice mild stunt engine but not in the league with most stunt 60's like the PA or RO-Jett even on a header muffler. I think an AeroTiger 36 is a more effective stunt engine than an ST46. The ST is *no match* for any common 40 like the VF. It had decent power for the day, but that day was 35 years ago.

    Knowing your plans, the system discussed above should work out just fine.

    Brett

No you didn't say it, that was just the impression I got from the range of props you suggested the 46 would handle.  I wasnt making a comparison to the modern 60's.  Just seemed like on a power scale from 40 to 60 of the older cross flow engines,  the 46 was closer to the 60 side of the range.  In any case I feel comfortable now that the two gurus have blessed my application.  Thanks for the help.   
Allan Perret
AMA 302406
Slidell, Louisiana

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Super Tigre 46
« Reply #13 on: December 24, 2021, 12:58:21 PM »
What is the bore and stroke of a G21/46?

I have received an engine with the number ground off.

I know that the nominal bore & stroke of a G21/40 is .8032" x .7874.  But I can't find reference to the 46.

Research has found that when ST did the 29, 35, and 40, they increased BOTH the bore & stroke with each step, thereby keeping the ratio the same.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2021, 01:48:32 PM by Paul Smith »
Paul Smith

Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: Super Tigre 46
« Reply #14 on: December 24, 2021, 02:48:01 PM »
22x 20 Nom. could be 19.8 .  for the 46 .

20.5 x 20 for the .40 .

23 x 20 for the .51 .  >:D

Bottom ends the same . rod n crank . real early dual ring and first one ring had differant bits to later ones .





Riginly theysaid 20 stroke , thisisa rearly 20 stroke , thin wall sleeve , parrallel bypass case one, below .Series 1 & 2 ,



Alloffthe bulged bypass are thicker sleeve 19.8 stroke , perhaps ,
« Last Edit: December 24, 2021, 03:12:34 PM by Air Ministry . »

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Super Tigre 46
« Reply #15 on: December 25, 2021, 09:30:41 AM »
Thank you for the data sheets.

The item seller's description was very hazy.  A previous user had for some reason (maybe sneaking a 46 in as a 40) ground off some of the markings.
I expected a G21, but actually got a G46. 
I was able to measure the stroke without tearing down the engine and it's .786" which confirms that it's a G46.  The G46 is the only engine with this stroke.

Now I have an engine for a small Old Time Class II Carrier model if I chose to build one.
Paul Smith

Offline George Fruhling

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Re: Super Tigre 46
« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2022, 12:07:33 AM »
Fuel - - Powermaster 5-22 (50-50 Castor/synthetic) or 10-22 (on a hot day or at altitude)

Iron piston ring running in a chromed, steel liner. (New rings available from Frank Bowman - Even the other engine rebuilders use his rings!)

It'll be a good performer at that weight. Get a good (non-ST) muffler

Props - 12-6, 12-5, or these possibly trimmed to 11½

Make sure the nose is solid! The G21/.46 doesn't shake like a Fox .35, but . . .

I have a ST .46 I bought new in 1980. Just now finishing my Genesis. Had a hard time getting the engine running correctly. Only 3 turns open on the needle valve.   Was going 6 or more. And does not seem to like a 4 stroke like rich mixture like the old Fox .35 stunt motors I'm used to. 
[img][/]

Offline George Fruhling

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Re: Super Tigre 46
« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2022, 12:08:41 AM »
[][/img]
I have a ST .46 I bought new in 1980. Just now finishing my Genesis. Had a hard time getting the engine running correctly. Only 3 turns open on the needle valve.   Was going 6 or more. And does not seem to like a 4 stroke like rich mixture like the old Fox .35 stunt motors I'm used to. 
[img][/]

Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: Super Tigre 46
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2022, 12:28:09 AM »
De Ja Veux .

ACTUALLY !

inanold Stunt News , One goes onabout DRILLING the Spray Bar & Fuel Orriface - 1.5 m.m. ( gives a Drill Number - 43 ? at a guess . which IS 1.5 m.m. )
run er through a few times after , by hand , to de ridge & de swarf  . A Good light , held up to , you can see in / through it ! )

says it 'toons easier ' . Ive tried it & it seems to be bouncier & more responsive .

If youve ever tried a FSR 15 / 10 NVA in a G !5 FI , youll know what I mean . No matter how far out the needle is , its never getting enough juice , ion C'Case Pressure , at least .
Modify message

Offline Motorman

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Re: Super Tigre 46
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2022, 12:02:04 PM »
I have a ST .46 I bought new in 1980. Just now finishing my Genesis. Had a hard time getting the engine running correctly. Only 3 turns open on the needle valve.   Was going 6 or more. And does not seem to like a 4 stroke like rich mixture like the old Fox .35 stunt motors I'm used to. 
[img][/]

I'd check the micky mouse stuff, bolts tight, new plug, fresh fuel ect. From new, ring might be stuck from 42 year old dried cosmoline.

Offline George Fruhling

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Re: Super Tigre 46
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2022, 12:22:29 AM »
 /DV /DV
Fuel - - Powermaster 5-22 (50-50 Castor/synthetic) or 10-22 (on a hot day or at altitude)

Iron piston ring running in a chromed, steel liner. (New rings available from Frank Bowman - Even the other engine rebuilders use his rings!)

It'll be a good performer at that weight. Get a good (non-ST) muffler

Props - 12-6, 12-5, or these possibly trimmed to 11½

Make sure the nose is solid! The G21/.46 doesn't shake like a Fox .35, but . . .

Would an 11-6 Rev-up prop work well?

Offline George Fruhling

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Re: Super Tigre 46
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2022, 10:17:28 PM »
Fuel - - Powermaster 5-22 (50-50 Castor/synthetic) or 10-22 (on a hot day or at altitude)

Iron piston ring running in a chromed, steel liner. (New rings available from Frank Bowman - Even the other engine rebuilders use his rings!)

It'll be a good performer at that weight. Get a good (non-ST) muffler

Props - 12-6, 12-5, or these possibly trimmed to 11½

Make sure the nose is solid! The G21/.46 doesn't shake like a Fox .35, but . . .

I have a rev up 11-6 wide. That ok?  Otherwise it's a 10-6 I have a half dozen or more of along with a couple of 9-13 props for an OS Max 60 powered speed ship I chickened out about flying. Sold my monoline handle years ago.  The OS got a flywheel and a cool clamp and went into a Deep Vee 60. A lot safer! 

Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: Super Tigre 46
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2022, 11:06:16 PM »
Id think , on a 50 / 55 Oz plane .

WAY to TELL is run it , find the 4/2 switch ( on the needle )
richen a tad so in steady 4 stroke . When you pinch & release the fuel line it should whack straight into a 2 stroke , release & ditto into 4 stroke , smartly .

other way is just tilt the nose up , usually the switch is 15 to 45 deg. point . BOTH upright & inverted ( same angle - tank shim - check ) .
So at say 20 to 30 degree it should give a clean switch , and drop straight into a 4 stroke imediately its back level . Do it upright & inverted for comparison .

a HOTTER plug if it aint doin it clean ? A big ugly heavy plane & it might want less prop ( 60 in 60 Oz ) but it should be fine , spendid even . was a popular prop .
DONT break it .

-----------------------

addn . theres W & E W , were almost say a 12 or 13 cut to 11 , pretty much . See some ' PRO ' pictures that look like the ' W ' s . -
was a pile of ( bags ) 12 x 5's a while back . good prop . At least a third had symetric grain distribution . Which I WANT if Im paying for them ! !

THE THING IS , at the korekt speed , on that prop , it'll be running a solid 4 stroke , Id think . So a lighterer plane'd be good . BUT AS ITS WOOD
its a piece of p to narrow / depitch / repitch etc them !!!!!!!!!!!!!

A barsteward file , hold and flip every 2 to 6 strokes . side to side . A virineer or pen & thumb to put some equally disposed datums on the back / underside
where your thinning aft to depitch . leave the full depth in the fwd third or half , semi semitrical ( airfoil / cross-section ) WORK GOOD ,
just pull it thinner aft , if you do need to depitch . A Sanding Stick & fresh 80 wt or a SHARP file . but evenly ordered execution ! .

Thats WHY WOODS GOOD . you can even HEAT & TWIST , we're told ! and theyll hold it . ( Hot air Gun ) just like those synthetic wood carbon f/glass things
that take your fingers off . where wood usually just shatters ( Itself rather'n yr bones ) .

So give it a whirl .
« Last Edit: August 09, 2022, 11:30:53 PM by Air Ministry . »

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Super Tigre 46
« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2022, 11:12:14 PM »
I have a rev up 11-6 wide. That ok?  Otherwise it's a 10-6 I have a half dozen or more of along with a couple of 9-13 props for an OS Max 60 powered speed ship I chickened out about flying. Sold my monoline handle years ago.  The OS got a flywheel and a cool clamp and went into a Deep Vee 60. A lot safer!

     It might be OK, I would certainly recommend you go find some other props that are not wide-blade, because those can be brutal in the wind. A 10-6 is too small.

   Brett

Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: Super Tigre 46
« Reply #24 on: August 09, 2022, 11:34:59 PM »
Quote
I have a ST .46 I bought new in 1980. Just now finishing my Genesis. Had a hard time getting the engine running correctly. Only 3 turns open on the needle valve.   Was going 6 or more. And does not seem to like a 4 stroke like rich mixture like the old Fox .35 stunt motors I'm used to.

THATS BECAUSE YOURE NOT ALLOWED TO ' BURN IT UP '

You want to look after this as theyre extinict manufcturally .

Get a hour on the bench ( 25 %or better  oil , and maybe for 2nd Hr in the air ) .

WE'VE BEEN WATCHING YOU ! . (  S?P ;D LL~)



55 Oz Marvelous , 60 Oz it might struggle . unless low Alt & cool air . tho 10 % will pick it up . ANd Ive run a .210 intake , so maybe yr need the .185 bore intake and a unoverly restricted muffler .

60 foot handle to fuse youll be fine , 65 foot and ' youll find out ' ! so start at 60 foot for tension , steering & control . Later you can let it all hang out , there , if it does . 67 F gives good airspeeed .
tho a FSR 40 / 45 orOS ( or Ryal / TT / Magnum clones ) SF 40 / 46 for aufoity in winds at 70 feet length might stop a few wobly knees . BUT LOOK AFTER THAT SUPER TIGRE 46 .

Flush & after run oil to prevent bearings rotting , from Nitro residue acids .She should be good but youll be pushing it in some areas . a good learing curve . stick to the 60 length till youve got it .  H^^

Quote
And does not seem to like a 4 stroke like rich mixture

probly fine after a hours running .
might not have the ' HOT ' plug , in it .

From NEW the OIL is 30 % then afteranhour maybe 25 % , to keep it cool . On the bench .
Best a few easy hours to bed in real fine , before you give it any agro . !
Definately a few hours before you drop 10 % nitro in it ! FIRST HOUR NO NITRO . so There .

It should thrum over steady on that prop - On the bench . A hours running before you look for the 4/2 break , on that though . ( a smaller one'd be snappier . a 9 x 6 or 10 x 6 for run in . Big one LOADS it unkindly ! )

Offline Peter in Fairfax, VA

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Re: Super Tigre 46
« Reply #25 on: August 10, 2022, 09:45:07 AM »
Have been flying a new ST 46 on a Pathfinder ARF, 53.5 oz complete.  That airframe is awesome for engine swaps, as it includes an engine mounting system that allows an LA 46 or SF46 to be exchanged in five minutes at the field.

Overall, my impression is that the ST 46 is similar to an LA 46 in power, but just a little less power with a smoother, more even run.  I like the ST, especially after I cut my lines to 60' eye-to-eye to get good tension.  At 62', I was just "surviving."

On the SF 46, lap times were 4.6 or 4.8 on 5% nitro in summer, a little quick.  Powerful.  Liked a quick 2 stroke run.  Set rich, gave a poor run.  Used a 12x5 Rev-Up cut to 11-1/4".

With the ST 46 and an aftermarket .150 aftermarket true venturi, 3 ounces of 5% 11-11 fuel is all that is needed for the pattern.  A little more oil and nitro are ideas for future.  Current prop is a 12x6 Zinger Pro.

A typical practice session for me is to put in about 12 flights in a row, burning a litre of fuel without significant breaks.  Cold starts are excellent, most first flip.  Hot restarts are OK, some of first flip, with a tendency to flood on hot restarts if I am not careful.

Don't have major issues at this time, but always open to ideas.

thanks,

Peter

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Super Tigre 46
« Reply #26 on: August 11, 2022, 07:36:02 AM »
r.

With the ST 46 and an aftermarket .150 aftermarket true venturi, 3 ounces of 5% 11-11 fuel is all that is needed for the pattern.  A little more oil and nitro are ideas for future.  Current prop is a 12x6 Zinger Pro.



thanks,

Peter

   Hi Peter;
   The above statement seems just a bit odd. ST.46s are known to be pretty thirsty. I think your venturi may be just a bit undersize. There is a size chart pinned to the top of the engine section you might want to check out. If you try.005 to .010" larger you will make some more usable power, especially for a 53 ounce airplane. I have a few ST.46s in my stash but no current model that will accept them and will have to work on that.
  Type at you later,
     Dan McEntee
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Offline Peter in Fairfax, VA

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Re: Super Tigre 46
« Reply #27 on: August 11, 2022, 12:45:41 PM »
Dan,

Thanks for the analysis.  Yes, I think .010 more would be good.

Peter

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Super Tigre 46
« Reply #28 on: August 11, 2022, 01:17:56 PM »

With the ST 46 and an aftermarket .150 aftermarket true venturi, 3 ounces of 5% 11-11 fuel is all that is needed for the pattern.  A little more oil and nitro are ideas for future.  Current prop is a 12x6 Zinger Pro.

    If it works, it works, but you are giving up *a ton* of power with the .150 venturi. The stock venturi was .157, and while 7 thousandths doesn't sound like much, it's 10% or so. That also explains the low fuel consumption - I routinely ran 5 ounces or so with the stock venturi and 5% and a 12-6.

   At the end, I was running a .173 venturi and 10%, with about 6.5 ounces of fuel, and it was pretty stout that way. That's .0235 square inches of choke area, as opposed to your .150 (.0176 square inches) or the stock .157 (.0194 square inches). It might be worth getting as set of venturi at .157, .165, .170, and .173, and excperimenting - making sure you can go back to what you have working now. People have run *much more* venturi than that but I never had any luck with more than about .173. That (for my purposes) required 10% to get an acceptably broad needing range.

   Nitro also helps. I think the last gasp of the ST46 was David running his ST46 with 15% Cool Power with a bunch of oil added.

     Brett

p.s. as an aside, while the ST may be acceptable and could be made better, I think the 46LA has far more potential, and running a 12-5 may not be full illustrating the difference. We all had a love/hate relationship with the ST46, it was probably better than anything else for a long time, the "hate" part was very real and you could have some very frustrating weekends taking them to contests. But as an illustration, I was experimenting with an iron liner 35FP as a potential replacement, and it was at least a wash in terms of performance. That was 35 years ago, to my amazement, but the point is that everyone was searching for alternatives even in the late 70's due to the potential power improvement and the frustration factor of the ST46.

Offline Peter in Fairfax, VA

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Re: Super Tigre 46
« Reply #29 on: August 12, 2022, 09:57:02 AM »
Though I appreciate the "if it works" thinking, and I have a contest this weekend, I drilled it .158 from what seemed to be .146, as well as added 4 oz of S&W 1/2A fuel as part of a litre otherwise 5%.  Headed to the field.

Peter

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Super Tigre 46
« Reply #30 on: August 12, 2022, 01:33:40 PM »
Though I appreciate the "if it works" thinking, and I have a contest this weekend, I drilled it .158 from what seemed to be .146, as well as added 4 oz of S&W 1/2A fuel as part of a litre otherwise 5%.  Headed to the field.

Peter

     Be ready for a significant change. On a true venturi, that's a healthy change. A 53 ounce model only using 3 ounces of fuel in a ST.46 just ain't natural!!  My biggest experience with them was in a SIG Chipmunk, and we are talking about similar size and weight, and I would use in the 5 ounce range of 10% if I'm remembering correctly. If the ST.46 you were using was working well on a model at that weight and only using 3 ounces, I would expect some performance increase! Fuel usage might jump up closer to the 5 ounce range also. Then you can play with the panty hose over the venturi trick to dial things in. I'll watch for a report.
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   Dan McEntee
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Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: Super Tigre 46
« Reply #31 on: August 12, 2022, 06:45:03 PM »
Indeed . part of the ' Big Jim ' philosophy was to get FUEL through to COOL the motor . if 6 Oz for the 60 about 5 Oz would be reasonable for the .46 .

bigger intake & you richen it to slow it down ( 4 - stroke ) . unburnt fuel / oil poisses oiut the back . If you dont like that try electric.  S?P S?P VD~

.285 with the 4 mm cross spraybar is abouta .185 in full flow sucker . Id guess under 4 1/2 Oz fuel , your running hotter than youd want ? .

From above . Randy Smith ; "  Also the stock ST 46 venturie was pretty small, as the ones came with .150 to .157 diameter, We used 160 to 175 diameter holes in them "
« Last Edit: August 12, 2022, 07:25:03 PM by Air Ministry . »

Offline Peter in Fairfax, VA

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Re: Super Tigre 46
« Reply #32 on: August 13, 2022, 07:04:25 PM »
Liking in even better in calm air with it yet further leaned out.  Getting 5.1 sec lap times, which suits me.

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Super Tigre 46
« Reply #33 on: August 13, 2022, 08:51:23 PM »
Liking in even better in calm air with it yet further leaned out.  Getting 5.1 sec lap times, which suits me.

   Watch your prop wash and wake turbulence in the calm air. Take small steps back as you do consecutive maneuvers. The air will get more disturbed that you might think you have another trim issue. Fly as is until you get some good stunt air with some breeze at your back and fly some more. What are your particulars now? How much of what kind of fuel, prop, etc.
   Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee
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Offline Peter in Fairfax, VA

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Re: Super Tigre 46
« Reply #34 on: August 14, 2022, 02:33:07 AM »
Dan,

Same prop, 12x6 Zinger Pro.  Same fuel, about 8% nitro, 24% oil.  Went from 3 oz fuel to 4 oz fuel when I opened up the venturi.  Overall, happy with all aspects of the airframe and engine in advance of today's contest.

Yes, in calm air, hitting the wake can be bad.  On this plane, slightly walking back in calm air is needed on the outsides.  On the insides, slightly forward to avoid "wind up."

Peter   

Offline George Fruhling

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Re: Super Tigre 46
« Reply #35 on: September 09, 2022, 10:56:40 PM »
   Yes. I have had some differences of opinion with various people over which where chrome and which weren't, but early on they all were, and at the end none were. Where it stopped is the point of debate - I agree with Ralph, it was sometime in the 70's, but when, who knows. There were a tremendous number of variations but they were all pretty good as long as you have a good ring. There were fewer variations than the ST35, I never saw two of those that were the same.

     If I had a stuffer crank engine, based on information from EricV, I would cut off the stuffer band before it breaks on its own. Other than that, everything else is fine straight out of the box.
   
    Brett

I have a G-21 .46 I bought in 1980. If it were chrome, would it say so on the box?  How can I tell by looking at the engine?

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Super Tigre 46
« Reply #36 on: September 10, 2022, 07:45:36 AM »
I have a G-21 .46 I bought in 1980. If it were chrome, would it say so on the box?  How can I tell by looking at the engine?

    The story I have heard is that the factory began cutting back on chrome operations as a cost cutting measure, nit sure of time frame. On the .60's, the word "Chromed"  is embossed on the crank case. They didn't want to spend the money to have that removed from the casting dies to avoid "false advertising" so their justification for leaving it was that they still chromed the crank pin and main bearing surfaces. I would assume that the .46s were the same way. Again, this is just the story I have heard about the 60's, and that they got away from chroming the bores when they introduced the case with muffler mounts on the sides of the case.
  Type at you later,
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Re: Super Tigre 46
« Reply #37 on: September 11, 2022, 08:30:06 PM »
https://www.intlwaters.com/threads/hard-industrial-chroming-of-aluminum-brass-or-steel-cylinders.71888/page-2
CRIKEY .
http://controlline.org.uk/phpBB2/files/dixon_iron_piston_mew_march_2003_117.pdf

HERE is confirmation of the Crome Super Tiggre Big End Shaft ! . With the WRONG Vickers Number .  :o
( assuming the obvious , that the 21 series rod chrome , is the same as the G / X series chrome . )
LOOKING at the SHAFT you can see the slight ' splash ' of the plating about the big end / pin , about 3 x Dia,
on the crank web . on s Tigre shafts with chomed crank pins , when theyre new , at least .







Quite a fascination read , . http://controlline.org.uk/microair/F2C70WEB/79fmv1.htm to purloin .  H^^

It alkso prattles on about it in the Peter Chinn tests of the last of the 21/40 - 46 . Verbatum . !  ;D






Offline Al Ferraro

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Re: Super Tigre 46
« Reply #38 on: January 11, 2023, 09:14:19 AM »
  I just recently picked up a Brodak P40 ARF with the Tigre 46 using a tube muffler and found it to be a good combination. I use a APC 12X5 prop, Sig RC plug, Power Master GMA 10-22 fuel. My venturi is .285 with a Tigre.156 spray bar through the middle of it, venturi locking pin removed and blocked off with JB weld. Lap times are 5.2 on 61' lines. The engine runs a solid 4 stroke in level laps which fits the plane perfect and completes the pattern easily. I found this engine to be thirsty compared to a LA.46 as it uses 6oz of fuel in just under 8 minutes.
Al


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