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Author Topic: ST60 screw set - size?  (Read 1617 times)

Offline Dennis Toth

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ST60 screw set - size?
« on: January 27, 2020, 09:10:22 PM »
Guys,
Could someone post the screw size for the ST60, I know they are meter but not sure the specific size. I would like to change them out to hex heads.

Best,   DennisT

Online Brett Buck

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Re: ST60 screw set - size?
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2020, 09:38:14 PM »
Could someone post the screw size for the ST60, I know they are meter but not sure the specific size. I would like to change them out to hex heads.

  I am staying out of it this time!

      Brett

Offline RandySmith

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Re: ST60 screw set - size?
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2020, 09:40:44 PM »
The  late model ST60 K  is  3mm , the  early ones  are  5-40s , or at least metrics that are perfect fit for  5-40.  You need  to  test yours  to see  which

Randy

Offline John Leidle

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Re: ST60 screw set - size?
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2020, 12:08:19 AM »
     Any of my Tigers use 5-40  SAE for the head. The other screws I can't say.
                 John

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: ST60 screw set - size?
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2020, 06:01:59 AM »
John.
Thanks for the reply, I did a search and found the attached chart. Shows that 5-40 is a 5ba metric. I checked Micro Fasteners site and they don't have that thread listed. I might just give them a call and see what they recommend.

Best,    DennisT

Offline Massimo Rimoldi

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Re: ST60 screw set - size?
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2020, 06:18:24 AM »
Hi.

5BA-43.5  is not a metric measure but an old British standard ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Association_screw_threads )
As has been said several times the screws of the Italian Super Tigre (and OPS) engines was 5-40.
In Italy we have struggled for years with the imperial measures (5-40, 1/4x32, 1/4x28) and I find it funny that you are looking for the problem where it does not exist.
Use 5-40 screws safely and enjoy

Massimo

Offline John Leidle

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Re: ST60 screw set - size?
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2020, 11:11:13 AM »
    Dennis,
     I picked up mine on EBAY as I find most all screws I need.  Seems like they are long so I cut & trim the ends down.
         Let me know if you can't find them.....
                       John   L.

Online Brett Buck

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Re: ST60 screw set - size?
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2020, 12:44:02 AM »
John.
Thanks for the reply, I did a search and found the attached chart. Shows that 5-40 is a 5ba metric. I checked Micro Fasteners site and they don't have that thread listed. I might just give them a call and see what they recommend.

Best,    DennisT

  OK, I cannot help myself, I suppose. It *is not* 5BA. I recently guessed that they must be 5BA, and acquired some (which is not that easy) and it's pretty close, but 5BA is the right diameter and the wrong pitch, it will start, but only go about 2 turns before beginning to bind up. It's finer pitch than the stock screws, and further off than a 5-40, which is also slightly too fine.

    It is also clearly not 5-40,  but 5-40 is far and away the closest of any known standard size, and is satisfactory over the depths of engagement required on ST46s and 60s. That's what most people use on ST46s and despite the epic arguments from the past, will not damage anything.

   Of course, the original stock screws are also entirely satisfactory and do not need to be replaced. Standard screwdrivers with the right thickness are generally far too wide to fit down into the head fins, and the ones that do fit in the fins are way too thin at the end. Just like "Phillips" and Japanese cross-head, to be safe and not damage the slots, the screwdriver must exactly fill the slot, in both dimensions, and there should be no "slop" or more than infinitesimal rotation of the blade in the slot.

    I have an old Proto electrician's screwdriver that I had to grind much blunter, and to remove the angles from the blades (it's now hollow-ground so the faces of the blade are parallel, and thus not prone to pushing out of the slot when you apply pressure). It's the same principle as gunsmith screwdrivers.

    The closest commonly available screwdriver to fitting that I have found is a Craftsman 3/16" Cabinet Screwdriver, #41427:

https://www.amazon.com/Craftsman-9-41247-Cabinet-Screwdriver-16/dp/B00065T9RY

    This one is about the right width and will fit down in the fins, but, as above, you have to grind off about 3/32" from the tip from the way it comes to make it fit the slot properly. It has ridges on the faces of the blade, so leave off the grinding so the peak of the ridge fills the slot. Most people use a standard 1/8" flat screwdriver, which fits down in the fins OK, but easily rotates 15-20 degrees because it is far too thin. You might be able to get it out, but it will distort/damage the slot by riding on the corners of the blade instead of the flat part.

    If you damage the screws - any screws- removing and replacing them, that means the tool didn't fit correctly. The hallmark of good workmanship is not leaving evidence of having worked on it, like distorted screw slots, scrapes, etc.

      Brett

Offline John Leidle

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Re: ST60 screw set - size?
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2020, 12:57:49 AM »
  Good info Brett,
  For removing the screws I have an old screwdriver I got from a " Wiremold" presentation back in the "80s.  I have a serious interest   in screwdrivers because growing in my dad had only ghetto screwdrivers . Might have a couple screwdrivers that would work on a Tiger...  Veco & maybe K&B used a thread that as far as I know is a nonlisted thread. It's used to bolt the muffler to the case on a Veco .61.  May have been a 5-48...
           John  L.

Offline Massimo Rimoldi

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Re: ST60 screw set - size?
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2020, 01:53:35 AM »

    It is also clearly not 5-40,  but  .....


I apologize, but I don't understand why.
If we measure the outside diameter of an old (original) ST screw, we find that corresponds to 0.1200 ".
The number of threads per inch is exactly 40, so they perfectly match the standard.
By comparing the external diameter with the tolerances allowed for the 5-40 screws, we can see that the dimensions are aligned with what is prescribed by the standard https://amesweb.info/Screws/AsmeUnifiedInchScrewThread.aspx , they are downwards but within the parameters .
So why isn't the 5-40 screw ?

Massimo

Typed after:
I rummaged through the old things, after measuring a good number of old screws, I saw that the various sets of screws vary a lot from one another going from one end to the other of the tolerance range.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2020, 09:51:47 AM by Massimo Rimoldi »

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: ST60 screw set - size?
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2020, 09:47:49 AM »
I guess one quick way to check it the ST screws are equal to the 5-40 is to take an actual ST screw and mess it with an 5-40 screw and see if it is an exact fit. Both Brett and Randy indicated that the 5-40 works without damage, but it would be nice to have the actual correct screws. How did they pick these screws are the actual ST screws available from a vendor in Italy that would be like Micro Fasteners here? Does anyone know the specific spec.?

Brett, thanks for the information on the screwdriver, I have one that fits between the fins and is tight in the slot but still has the angled sides, might see if a local machine shop (or maybe Jim Lee) can flatten them to fit properly.

Personally, I would love to swap them out for hex heads but have to make sure not only is the thread proper but that the head fits down into the head without binding on the sides. Found this out when swapping out Fox screws, you have to grind the head to 0.167" to match the original cross head screw and not bind and distort the head/sleeve. 

Best,    DennisT

Offline Massimo Rimoldi

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Re: ST60 screw set - size?
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2020, 10:03:03 AM »
Hi Dennis,

the head diameter of the original ST screws is around 0.2180 ", so there is no problem for the upgrade.
As Randy and Brett have already said, you can go easy and you can trust them with closed eyes  ....

Massimo

Online Brett Buck

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Re: ST60 screw set - size?
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2020, 10:07:08 AM »
I guess one quick way to check it the ST screws are equal to the 5-40 is to take an actual ST screw and mess it with an 5-40 screw and see if it is an exact fit. Both Brett and Randy indicated that the 5-40 works without damage, but it would be nice to have the actual correct screws. How did they pick these screws are the actual ST screws available from a vendor in Italy that would be like Micro Fasteners here? Does anyone know the specific spec.?

   They *aren't* 5-40s, the pitch causes the threads to go from meshed to point-to-point in about 3/4". The ST is coarser - which is much more appropriate than the super-fine pitch standard metric. It appears to be a standard thread form, just more coarse, presumably for more "bite" in the soft aluminum casting.

    People have been searching for the actual size for years, as far as I could tell, they were some special extra-coarse metric size, according to the guys down at the Lockheed machine shop (back when we still had such a thing...). People have been looking for this for the entire time I have owned ST engines, with no luck and some epic arguments over it on SSW and in real life before there was an internet. There are pretty sharp machinists who are convinced they are 5-40s that have "stretched" from plastic deformation, but I doubt it.

    My suggestion is to *give up*, I did! Leave them alone if possible, if not, at least for the applications we have, as long as you don't attempt to use longer-than-stock, 5-40s appear safe enough, do not damage the threads (the point of much hysterical arguing over the years), and are generally available.

     One word of caution - keep them as far away from 4-40's as possible, put them in a marked container,and be very careful, because many the poor sucker has gotten them mixed in with 4-40s, picked up the wrong screw, and then tried to use a 4-40 by accident. It screws in really easily, but then strips the hole when you try to tighten it. And no, not me, but I had a few close calls, and seen many actual occurrences.

   Most of the problems people have with screws are actually problems with screwdrivers, or a combination of non-standard or randomly-size slots and semi-random drivers.

      Brett

Offline RandySmith

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Re: ST60 screw set - size?
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2020, 12:05:04 PM »
The  worse  thing that I have seen happen  is  when people  try to run a  3mm  bolt down into a  ST  case when it is  tapped  5-40 , and  vise  versa, the installing of 5-40s in a later model case also is very bad, So make  sure  what you have to start with, and never mix these  2  up

I also just pulled a new  st 60 case  and ran a 5-40 into it with my fingers

Randy

Offline M Spencer

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Re: ST60 screw set - size?
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2020, 06:24:13 PM »
Oh Dear ;

Recently donated a bottle of singer Sewing Machine Oil. After half a century of sneering at such , we're converted . Whatever you use .
OIL THEM .

From Dallas Hanna;

raglafart wrote:
Hi Herb
The Super Tigre G15 threads are definitely not 5-40, I have 5 or 6 around the place and they are all M 2.6 which is a .45 mm pitch. That's a 56.4 tpi in imperial terms
40 tpi as you'll be aware is .635 mm pitch.

Alwyn, as Herb has already stated it's from an old standard and hasn't been mainstream for a long while.
I have some of these taps and dies for the Enya crankshafts and compscrews but it's an archaic system.

Here are two other thread charts that may prove useful.




Could be one of two things then John. Some older ST engined had screws using metric and then came the era when export to the US seemed the way to go. I had one engine very vintage ST 40 which had metric threads and then along came the #5-40 ones in the later 40, 46 and 60 engines. Was it World Engines who may have been behind the general use of Unified threads???

Mr Hanna has contributed here , with some Micro Scope view pictures of Thread Profile & Pitch .

& 2014 Alwyn Smith ,

Quote
I have been buying small Metal Threads and Self Tappers from Microfasteners in New Jersey ( USA ) and I contacted them about the LONG 3.0 mm x 0.6 mm metal threads.
They replied that they still have the 3.0 mm x 0.6 mm SCREWS ? but only about 1/2" long, with Allen Heads

SO , The WRIST PIN came out no trouble, then . Dennis .  H^^

Offline M Spencer

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Re: ST60 screw set - size?
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2020, 06:27:49 PM »
https://stunthanger.com/smf/open-forum/screw-threads-in-many-super-tigre-engines/msg108715/#msg108715

Which one might summise as Likely not metric, post 1968 . The G -15 R.C. Intro Date. Maybe.

Perhaps like Triumph , who went progresively from an assortment of British threads to the Unified National  Threads from America
from / inc.  68 till 70 . Except for the ones they missed

« Last Edit: January 30, 2020, 06:57:21 PM by Air Ministry . »

Online Brett Buck

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Re: ST60 screw set - size?
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2020, 10:52:54 PM »
As before - the pitch is between 38 TPI and 40 TPI on my pitch gauge, and is clearly just a hair coarser than 40 TPI when comparing to a 5-40.

    39 TPI would be 0.65mm to about 3 significant figures. The guys in the Lockheed machine shop (in about 1989, when Lockheed Sunnyvale still had machine shops)  used their comparator and their pitch gauges to come up with - .65mm. This would be, as noted, an anomalously coarse metric thread, but clearly metric.

   5BA is much finer, 43 TPI appears to be about right (it's supposedly 43.05 TPI or 0.59mm). 4BA has close to the right pitch (.66 mm vice .65), but is far too large.

   As Randy noted, a 5-40 screw threads all the way to the bottom of an ST46 head screw pocket with very light finger pressure and very little free play.

    Good enough.

     Brett


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