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Author Topic: ST v60 has to be set very rich then runs lean...  (Read 3037 times)

Offline Dennis Nunes

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ST v60 has to be set very rich then runs lean...
« on: September 25, 2017, 12:06:00 PM »
I have an inverted mounted ST v60 with MACS Flow-Thru muffler running a Xoar 13x6 prop. I'm using a 6 oz. metal tank with uniflow muffler pressure. The problem is that I have to launch the plane with the needle valve set extremely rich, almost to the point of dying. Once the plane gets airborne it leans out, too lean, but it's not over-lean. It will slightly "crack" to a 4-cycle for a couple of strokes (maybe an 1/8 of a lap). It remains that way for the entire flight. The only good thing is that it's very consistent. This same engine and setup was used in another, very similar plane, and worked fine.

I've checked the tank for leaks - none. Checked for something restricting the pick-up line - nothing. I did have to adjust the tank height, lowering it, as it went slightly rich when inverted. The engine now runs the same both upright and inverted. This adjustment also made some improvement on the needle setting. My previous flying session I thought I had it resolved as the engine would run a nice 2-4-2 break. But today, with no adjustments, it went back to the same issue I had previously. I'm not sure what to try or where to look. Any suggestions?

Dennis

Offline Target

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Re: ST v60 has to be set very rich then runs lean...
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2017, 02:19:23 PM »
I would expect lowering the tank in the airframe to make the plane run richer inverted, not leaner inverted.
Regardless, it almost sounds like a partially kinked or moving fuel hose that changes in flight.
Good luck, I'm interested in what the cure ends up being.
Regards,
Chris
AMA 5956

Offline Dennis Nunes

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Re: ST v60 has to be set very rich then runs lean...
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2017, 08:29:55 PM »
I finally got it to work!  #^

I had to switch the location of the supply line and the vent line location exiting the front of the tank. The uniflow line is now attached just below the supply pickup. It now works beautifully.

But I'm not sure why it's working. Can someone explain why the my first setup failed and the revised one works?

Thanks,
Dennis



Offline Dennis Nunes

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Re: ST v60 has to be set very rich then runs lean...
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2017, 10:29:00 PM »
This is a view from the rear, looking down from above. Please see the notes "OUTBOARD" and "INBOARD".

Dennis
« Last Edit: September 25, 2017, 11:56:49 PM by Dennis Nunes »

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: ST v60 has to be set very rich then runs lean...
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2017, 09:01:22 AM »
Dennis,
The drawing is great and gives a lot of information. Since you re-plumbed either the connection tubing did have a way of moving and pinching down once in the air or there was a split in the connecting tubing. The ST 60 is a vibrator and even with cross-grain filler between the mounts can cause some significant shaking which can get to the flex tubing. I have found that the blue silicon tubing can develop a very clean shear through the surface at the connection to the tank hard tube. It may not be visible just looking at it but if you pull on the ends you can see the failure point.

Best,   DennisT

Offline Dennis Nunes

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Re: ST v60 has to be set very rich then runs lean...
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2017, 12:29:54 PM »
The fuel lines were in a tight location but were not pinched or cut. In this last modification I replace all tubing and fuel lines even though there were no cuts or splits in either one.

It's certainly is puzzling. I don't know if relocating the fuel pickup line so that it would be a straight shot to the spraybar fixed it. In the first installation I had to weave the fuel line to the opposite side of the engine to connect to the spraybar.

I'm not sure if moving the end of the uniflow tubing to just below the fuel pickup line may have fixed it. Before, it was at the same elevation as the fuel pickup line. It still terminates about 1/4" short of the end of the fuel pickup. I was under the impression that the termination of the uniflow could almost be anywhere in the tank --- Maybe not.

Whatever it was, I'm glad that it's working now.  #^

Thanks,
Dennis

Offline EddyR

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Re: ST v60 has to be set very rich then runs lean...
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2017, 12:43:28 PM »
 I have used The ST/46 & 60 for years and never found it made any difference where the pickup exited the tank. One thing that does effect the motor run is the location of the uniflow air pickup on the outside of the body. For years I never had any problems with regular stunt models. But when I wen to wide bodies ,Bearcat, I had a problem like yours. The tube on the body was over one inch offset from the tank. When I moved the uniflow inside the body the motor ran normal.
  What model are you flying?
Ed
Locust NC 40 miles from the Huntersville field

Offline Dennis Nunes

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Re: ST v60 has to be set very rich then runs lean...
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2017, 01:22:42 PM »
The uniflow vent location on the "outside" of the plane did not change. I didn't move the location of the unflow connection at the front of the tank, that has remained the same. I just relocated it's attachment point at the end of pickup tubing.

It's my own scratchbuilt design called Circulas 60.


Dennis


Offline EddyR

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Re: ST v60 has to be set very rich then runs lean...
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2017, 05:28:03 PM »
Dennis      I see you have your needle valve on the outside of the circle so as to clear the muffler. Many people do it but it has caused me problems in the past.   I see why you moved the pickup tube to that side at the front of the tank. If it works that is great.
Ed
Locust NC 40 miles from the Huntersville field

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: ST v60 has to be set very rich then runs lean...
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2017, 03:38:33 PM »
There is a NV/spraybar available that has fuel inlet on the same side as the NV....not sure if Randy Smith has it or not, but I'd ask. The R/C pylon guys use them. I haven't tried them or gotten any of them...yet.  http://www.pspmfg.com/ was where I saw them.

I'm not understanding why the second tank works differently, but I did notice that the overflow tube on it is labelled as feeding to the engine, as is the actual engine feed tube. Obviously a simple CAD mistake. I like the new tank plumbing, and it's good to see that it works!  H^^ Steve

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Online Lauri Malila

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Re: ST v60 has to be set very rich then runs lean...
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2017, 04:17:04 PM »
If the vent tube is too close to the pick up the air bubbles will miss the pick up but when you get airborne the higher rpm and/or different G forces will let the air bubbles mix with the fuel and lean the mixture.

I recommend you to buy some helium balloons and put them into your car.
Then go for a little drive and see how the balloons behave in turns.
What I try to say, is that bubbles from vent tube (if too close to pickup) usually cause problems when adjusting the needle, not during flight. L

Online Brett Buck

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Re: ST v60 has to be set very rich then runs lean...
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2017, 02:29:58 PM »
If the vent tube is too close to the pick up the air bubbles will miss the pick up but when you get airborne the higher rpm and/or different G forces will let the air bubbles mix with the fuel and lean the mixture.

  No. The bubbles want to go to the inside even faster than on the ground. ~2.5x as fast. If it pick up bubbles in the air (which I can't see and can't confirm) it is from foaming, not from the vent.

      When engines go lean in the air, it can have a number of causes, but this isn't likely one of them.

    Brett

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: ST v60 has to be set very rich then runs lean...
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2017, 12:37:00 PM »
If the bubbles are not being sucked into the fuel pickup line from the uniflow line being to close what are the other things that could cause it to go lean right after take-off?

What comes to mind would be an air leak around the needle valve, air leak around the spraybar to case hole as the engine heats up, small hole in the fuel tube that move after take-off and allows air leakage, backplate gasket air leak. Anything else that could do it?

Best,    DennisT

Offline Dennis Nunes

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Re: ST v60 has to be set very rich then runs lean...
« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2017, 06:15:37 AM »
I replaced fuel lines, fuel tank, routing of fuel lines, pressure tested everything, changed tank height, muffler pressure, no muffler pressure, cleaned the needle valve assembly and sealed it with sealant. Nothing worked. I was just about to give up and when I noticed on the last flight while waiting for the tank to run out that the engine started to oscillate from rich to lean and doing all kinds of funny stuff. This lead to a very simple fix. I changed the glow plug! NOW everything works just fine.

I purchased the engine used and was using the old glow plug (Fox RC idle bar plug, I believe) that it came with. It had work fine in my previously plane with no problems. So I decided to put in my last Thunderbolt plug and the engine now 'purrs like a kitten'!

Dennis


 

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: ST v60 has to be set very rich then runs lean...
« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2017, 11:40:39 AM »
Dennis,
Oh that plug thing!!! Glad you got it to work. I think this will help a lot of fliers. Plugs are funny things, they seem fine then puff, there not, but still start the engine just fine. It seems that for almost any thing that changes kinda sudden we need to start by changing the plug to one of the know good brands. Thanks for sharing the info.

Best,    DennisT

Offline Dennis Nunes

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Re: ST v60 has to be set very rich then runs lean...
« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2017, 12:07:29 PM »
This was a very frustrating but "great" learning experience. Moral of the story ---- Start with the easiest thing first!

Dennis


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