News:



  • May 23, 2024, 01:40:30 PM

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: Fuel/Plug Issues? K&B .40 #4011  (Read 590 times)

Offline Steve Scott

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 673
  • Terrorizing earthworms since '65
Fuel/Plug Issues? K&B .40 #4011
« on: June 06, 2020, 03:07:29 PM »
Been many years since I've fooled around with IC motors but bought a used airplane w/K&B .40 (#4011 I think) with the Dykes ring and a CL venturi with what looks like an ST NVA.  Took it off the airplane to run it on the bench and had issues with it continuing to run when I removed the glow plug lead.

One problem is I have a very old batch of Cool Power 10% which I had added a couple of ounces of castor but can't remember how much.  Fuel is likely 6 or 7 years old, nearly full and had been opened but stored in a relatively cool & dark basement. Yeah, I know totally unsuitable for stunt but wanted to get the feel of the motor.  I was unsure if it was the ringed or ABC version when I bought it.  Took the stock muffler off and it's definitely the ringed version.

Using the plug which came with it so don't know which one it is.  Zinger wood 11-5 prop.  Seems to run pretty steady and I needled it to a crackling 2 stroke but, it would die gradually in about 5 seconds if I removed the glow plug lead.  I put three 2oz tanks of the CP through it using muffler pressure and keeping the plug attached to the battery.

My other fleet are typically plain bearing ABN OS LA or FP motors from .20 to .46 size.  I know these like at least 22% lube.   I will need to order some new fuel and a batch of new plugs and props.  I did read the setup thread on the K&B #4011.

Do I need/should I use different types of fuel to run in a ball bearing ringed engine such as the K&B vs. my LAs and FPs?

Offline Dan McEntee

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6899
Re: Fuel/Plug Issues? K&B .40 #4011
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2020, 03:19:54 PM »
     If that is all the fuel you have, try to find something that is a mix of castor and synthetic. If the 22% lube fuel you have is at least 1/3 castor, that should run well enough for a bench run. For ringed engines, a little more castor is usually desirable, but if this engine has been run in sufficiently and can be considered broken in, it should run on the fuel you use in your OS engines. Cool power is all synthetic and I don't know if you can add castor to it. If the local hobby shop has the pink Omega, you can add about 6 ounces of castor to that and be in the ball park. For an engine with the Dykes type ring, you need the oil to help let the ring work.  As far as the engine quitting, I would suspect the plug, especially if the fuel you have runs well in other engines. When you get this sorted out and the K&B running well, you might want to use some after run oil to keep the bearings from gumming up from the castor oil in the fuel. Some commercially available stuff, or even just transmission fluid if you have an open bottle. Air tool lubrication oil works well also.
   Type at you later,
     Dan McEntee
AMA 28784
EAA  1038824
AMA 480405 (American Motorcyclist Association)

Offline Steve Scott

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 673
  • Terrorizing earthworms since '65
Re: Fuel/Plug Issues? K&B .40 #4011
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2020, 05:01:25 PM »
Thanks for the reply, Dan.   For CL, I've most always been a Sig Champion (all castor) type of person but virtually no one carries it locally.  I still have some partial gallons but it's all very, very old stuff and the Cool Power was the newest and fullest.  I still have 2 gallons which have never been opened yet.   I've used the Omega syn/castor stuff w/added castor in the past.

Truth is, I've not run any IC engine in years.  Found I didn't even have a way to light up a glow plug this weekend.  I had been using a Sig Field Boss panel but my 12V 7.5A Pb cell is dead and an old NiCD KwikStart couldn't put out enough juice to light the K&B - even after a quick charge.   Bought a new Kwik Start but needed to charge it 14 hours.  Had to jury-rig an extension cord to run a 12V power supply to power the Sig panel.  Never would have gotten the K&B started w/o the electric starter.

So much rust to knock off...  n~

Oh, and I do have a pint of Marvel Air Tool Oil.  After running the K&B, I disconnected the fuel line connected the glow plug and hit it with the starter.  Should be all ready for the MATO.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2020, 06:32:50 PM by Steve Scott »

Offline Steve Scott

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 673
  • Terrorizing earthworms since '65
Re: Fuel/Plug Issues? K&B .40 #4011
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2020, 06:48:41 PM »
Fuel would be 10% nitro 1/2 &1/2 synthetic/castor works great in any ringed engine. Plug could be a K&B RC long with idle bar. Sonictronics also has a good RC idle bar plug. 

The problem might be that it's just plain worn out or the ring could be all gummy. What ever you do don't take it apart until you're sure it needs a rebuild. Does it have a "P" stamped on the head? That's the low compression head for stunt but won't help your flame out problem. Try a new plug and some fresh fuel before you judge it.


Motorman 8)
Nope, not the hemi head.  Don't know it's origins.  I suspected the plug but it did light and I was eventually able to get it started.  Photo of engine.  Don't think I've seen this venturi style before.  Anyone recognize it?

Offline Brett Buck

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 13755
Re: Fuel/Plug Issues? K&B .40 #4011
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2020, 06:59:59 PM »
Nope, not the hemi head.  Don't know it's origins.  I suspected the plug but it did light and I was eventually able to get it started.  Photo of engine.  Don't think I've seen this venturi style before.  Anyone recognize it?

   Not immediately. It looks like a PA spraybar.

    If it hasn't been run enough, Cool Power (even with a few ounces of castor) might allow it to seize up, but that would be a bit surprising. I would suspect the same things you do, fuel and plug. Powermaster 10% "Air" or "Helicopter" would be my choice of fuel, and a Glow Devil #300, Thunderbolt RC or 4-cycle, even a K&B RC should work fine. A plug can light up and get it to start, and still be bad.

    If the engine has not been "improved" internally, and turns over freely with decent compression, there isn't a lot else that can go wrong. If it has been "improved", or is a "special stunt version", then I would say a call to MECOA is in order to get new, stock, parts.

   Brett

Offline Dan McEntee

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6899
Re: Fuel/Plug Issues? K&B .40 #4011
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2020, 07:07:36 PM »
   Where are you located Steve? That venturi looks like the ones offered by the late Russ Gifford, who lived up in Iowa. Russ used K&B engines a lot. The last big stunter I remember him flying used the last version of the K&B .61 with the twist head to vary compression. I have a few of those venturis and they work well and look cool! Ask around and see if anyone has any Fox fuel with oil up in the 25% range just to try. The extra oil will help with compression enough to maybe let it run a bit. IS it starts at all I would think it should run. Try a good hot plug, like a Thunderbolt of GlowDevil R/C long. I remember the local R/C guys having to use starters on these even when brand new. MECCOA should have rings for it if you want to try changing the ring, but get good reliable specs for the gap and such. I have a few of these in the different versions, including the last one that was an ABC piston and liner, but have not had a use for them yet. The late Jim Thomerson was another one who used these a lot. Jim lived here in the St. Louis area, but moved back home to Austin, Texas when he retired from teaching and research at SIU in Edwardsville, IL. he passed away several years ago, but maybe it's one of his old engines if you live down that way.
   Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee
AMA 28784
EAA  1038824
AMA 480405 (American Motorcyclist Association)

Offline Steve Scott

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 673
  • Terrorizing earthworms since '65
Re: Fuel/Plug Issues? K&B .40 #4011
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2020, 07:30:04 PM »
Yeah, I'm up in MN.   As mentioned, the engine will start and runs fine - until I remove the battery.  In fact, I set it for a rich 2-stroke and it held that setting perfectly until the 2oz tank ran out.

Pretty sure it's a plug problem but I can't even find my plug wrench.  Had one of the old Fox 4-way wrenches.  Took the muffler off and it has the caged exhaust port so that tells me it's the dykes piston.

I have some Sig 25% all castor but it's really, really old stuff.

Offline Dan McEntee

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6899
Re: Fuel/Plug Issues? K&B .40 #4011
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2020, 08:16:48 PM »
    We are having a real problem finding fuel here in St. Louis, and in anticipating that someday I may have this problem, I always bought some fuel whenever I went to SIG for their C/L contest, or to Montezuma for any reason. I had quite a big stash, and some of it was stuff from 2012 or older. Like a lot of people, I have some that was of questionable quality and on the 'weed killer" shelf. Just to be able to sport fly, I have been going through everything I have to see what runs and what won't and using it in my fun flying airplanes. I have not had any problems so far  and I have burned through quite a bit of it and some I know had to be 20 years old or so. I have opened up 40 year old cans of Cox fuel before and had it run just fine in Cox engines. If it's been stored in a stable atmosphere and out of the sunlight, it ought  to run, and the thing to do is try it in a couple of different engines and plugs. If it won't run in anything, then it really is weed killer! I had some Fox brand fuel stashed also, so you know how old that must be!. Two gallons of a 22% total oil, half and half mix that I got in some stuff I bought. It almost looked like straight Klotz oil! I have had plenty of SIG fuel to run over the years so just let it sit. I went through my entire stock last week and sorted things out and found some Fox Dukes Fuel, which was 10% nitro and 20% all castor. I had two gallons of each, so mixed up a gallon using half a gallon of each, and I'l be damned if it doesn't run pretty nice. Comparing it to a gallon of the freshest SIG Champion I have and it runs about the same. So I'm using it to fun fly and saving the good stuff for any contest work, but not much of that in my future. So once you get some reliable electric igniter systems working and some other plugs to try, might as well try some of your other fuel. You might be surprise what will still operate. it won't be Gold Bond Certified, but good enough for testing. Good luck with it.
    Type at you later,
     Dan McEntee
AMA 28784
EAA  1038824
AMA 480405 (American Motorcyclist Association)

Offline John Leidle

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 409
Re: Fuel/Plug Issues? K&B .40 #4011
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2020, 09:16:56 PM »
  I'd say if you have some 5% try it  also less castor.
  PM sent , John

Offline Brett Buck

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 13755
Re: Fuel/Plug Issues? K&B .40 #4011
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2020, 10:22:42 PM »
Yeah, I'm up in MN.   As mentioned, the engine will start and runs fine - until I remove the battery.  In fact, I set it for a rich 2-stroke and it held that setting perfectly until the 2oz tank ran out.

Pretty sure it's a plug problem but I can't even find my plug wrench.  Had one of the old Fox 4-way wrenches.

   5/16" nut driver or deep-well socket.

     Brett

Offline Tim Wescott

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 12822
Re: Fuel/Plug Issues? K&B .40 #4011
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2020, 12:16:46 PM »
Get a suitable wrench and a trusted brand of glow plug, put it in, see what happens.

Glow plugs can glow and still not work.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.


Advertise Here
Tags:
 


Advertise Here