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Author Topic: ST 51 Ring or ABC?  (Read 1364 times)

Offline Christian Chacha

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ST 51 Ring or ABC?
« on: November 14, 2021, 04:01:17 PM »
Hey Guys if you had an opportunity to get ST 51 Ring or ABC, Which would you choose and why?

Online Jim Svitko

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Re: ST 51 Ring or ABC?
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2021, 06:17:54 PM »
Some years ago, I found a CL version of the ST 51 in a hobby shop.  I was told to expect problems with the ring but nothing happened.  The engine runs fine. 

I would not assume that the ring will be bad or have a short life.  If properly broken in, the ringed version will do OK.  In the ringed engine, I am running 5/24 fuel, maybe 10% in hot weather.  I found that the ringed engine likes the slightly higher oil content.

I also have an RC version of the ST 51 and installed Brian Gardner's ABC parts.  I have only run it on the bench, never mounted in a plane.

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: ST 51 Ring or ABC?
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2021, 10:54:50 PM »
   I've been running ST G-.51 engines since they appeared in 1994, I think it was. I used my first one in the first Jetco Shark.45 that I built. When I built it's replacement about 10 years later to take to VSC, I took the engine out of the first one and put it in the second one. It's gonna be real hard to figure out how many hours that engine has on it, but it's still in the second Shark and I hope to refurbish the airplane and it may be time for a new ring!! I may be one of the highest houred users of this engine on the list, between the Sharks and three other models. I have never had an issue with the rings in any of them. I always ran SIG 10% Champion fuel mixed 50/50 with SIG 10% All Castor fuel in these. Straight SIG !0% Champion or your favorite nitro content fuel with at least 20% total oil should work well for you. I just recently tried a ST.51 that I installed one of Brian Gardner's ABC sets in and it's a great running engine and have been pleased with the results so far. I think he changed the timing just s tad but I sense no loss of power so far. I hope to fly the model a lot more next year after some refurbishment this winter. After breaking n the engine to Brian's instructions, and after a couple of dozen flights before the weather started to get colder, the piston fit is still feels like the first day I ran it, so these may last a REALLY long time. There is a difference between the R/C and C/L versions of the piston and liner, so if the engines that you are looking at are R/C engines, I would opt for replacing the P&L with the ABC set up if you have it. I think you will just be a lot more happy with the way it runs. If the stock one is a C/L version, maybe just let price be your guide, but, what the heck, get 'em both! But if the C/L version is used and all carboned up and been sitting a while, the ring may be stuck in the ring groove so watch for that. If you have to take it apart because a ring is worn out, might as well do the ABC swap, again if you have one. I think the best set up to start with is the fuel I mentioned, hot plug like a Glow Devil R/C  Long or Thunderbolt R/C  Long, at least a 5 ounce tank, and APC 12.25 by 3.75 prop, with take off RPM in the 9500 range. Line lengths and such subject to model size and weight.
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Offline curtis williams

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Re: ST 51 Ring or ABC?
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2021, 06:16:43 AM »
Not to sound like a hoarder, I have 3 with Brian Gardiner ABC stuff.  I had Randy Smith do his thing.  I also lightened the cases.  They look nice.
The best part is hearing one run on a test stand.  Impressive,  can't wait to fly it.

Offline Manuel Cortes

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Re: ST 51 Ring or ABC?
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2021, 09:32:58 AM »
Hi, I am interested in how were the cases lightened.

Thanks for your time.

Kind regards from Spain.

Manuel.

Online Dennis Toth

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Re: ST 51 Ring or ABC?
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2021, 01:40:12 PM »
Chris,
I think you will like the BG ABC setup in the ST51. With this setup you have a choice of the run type. You could run a classic 4-2-4 or a low pitch/high rpm arrangement. It seems those running the lower pitch (like 3.25") really like the power of the 51.

Best,      DennisT

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Re: ST 51 Ring or ABC?
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2021, 01:56:43 AM »
Hi, I am interested in how were the cases lightened

Here are a few pictures of a stock ST.51 next to Curtis's modified case, Randy Smith prepped, Brian Gardner ABC equipped ST.51.

The case mods don't save much weight, but it sure looks better!  The stock engine weighs 11.15oz/316g.  The ABC beauty weighs 11oz/311g.
Laser-cut, "Ted Fancher Precision-Pro" Hard Point Handle Kits are available again.  PM for info.
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Offline Manuel Cortes

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Re: ST 51 Ring or ABC?
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2021, 12:12:12 PM »
Thanks for the photos, in my opinion, they look better, too  #^

Offline phil c

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Re: ST 51 Ring or ABC?
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2021, 04:11:32 PM »
Here are a few pictures of a stock ST.51 next to Curtis's modified case, Randy Smith prepped, Brian Gardner ABC equipped ST.51.

The case mods don't save much weight, but it sure looks better!  The stock engine weighs 11.15oz/316g.  The ABC beauty weighs 11oz/311g.

I wouldn't bother with e grinding for 0.25oz or so.  But the engines themselves are powerhouses for their cost and weight, especially with the ABC P/l.
phil Cartier

Offline Christian Chacha

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Re: ST 51 Ring or ABC?
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2021, 01:54:04 PM »
Randy Smith has a Ring Version and an ABC version. Trying to narrow down my purchase lol

Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: ST 51 Ring or ABC?
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2021, 08:47:04 PM »
Yep . as per Dan ,

USED , strip & clean it , before running .

POLISH he wrist pin .

Ive gotta 10 gallon plus ( or double that ) one , ring gap was at 5 thou firm recently measured .

Carve the longitudeinal thing above the left lug back , or off . I file flat til t polishes the ' 51 ' just ,
Then lap on wet & dry 180 Wt , on a piece of glass .

Dunno what differance the ABC run is . theres a ABC G 45 same dimn.s that might work ok as an alternative, perhaps .

G 51s dont hurry the run in . A few hours before W F O . or heavy ship . use winter if you can first . Then itll last forever .
No nitro for the first hour too , cept maybe a prime in the cold weather.

 H^^

Offline Christian Chacha

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Re: ST 51 Ring or ABC?
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2021, 08:16:50 AM »
   I've been running ST G-.51 engines since they appeared in 1994, I think it was. I used my first one in the first Jetco Shark.45 that I built. When I built it's replacement about 10 years later to take to VSC, I took the engine out of the first one and put it in the second one. It's gonna be real hard to figure out how many hours that engine has on it, but it's still in the second Shark and I hope to refurbish the airplane and it may be time for a new ring!! I may be one of the highest houred users of this engine on the list, between the Sharks and three other models. I have never had an issue with the rings in any of them. I always ran SIG 10% Champion fuel mixed 50/50 with SIG 10% All Castor fuel in these. Straight SIG !0% Champion or your favorite nitro content fuel with at least 20% total oil should work well for you. I just recently tried a ST.51 that I installed one of Brian Gardner's ABC sets in and it's a great running engine and have been pleased with the results so far. I think he changed the timing just s tad but I sense no loss of power so far. I hope to fly the model a lot more next year after some refurbishment this winter. After breaking n the engine to Brian's instructions, and after a couple of dozen flights before the weather started to get colder, the piston fit is still feels like the first day I ran it, so these may last a REALLY long time. There is a difference between the R/C and C/L versions of the piston and liner, so if the engines that you are looking at are R/C engines, I would opt for replacing the P&L with the ABC set up if you have it. I think you will just be a lot more happy with the way it runs. If the stock one is a C/L version, maybe just let price be your guide, but, what the heck, get 'em both! But if the C/L version is used and all carboned up and been sitting a while, the ring may be stuck in the ring groove so watch for that. If you have to take it apart because a ring is worn out, might as well do the ABC swap, again if you have one. I think the best set up to start with is the fuel I mentioned, hot plug like a Glow Devil R/C  Long or Thunderbolt R/C  Long, at least a 5 ounce tank, and APC 12.25 by 3.75 prop, with take off RPM in the 9500 range. Line lengths and such subject to model size and weight.
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I believe both engines that Randy has in stock are CL models. No one really said what is the advantage of the ABC over the ring.

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: ST 51 Ring or ABC?
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2021, 08:44:03 AM »
I believe both engines that Randy has in stock are CL models. No one really said what is the advantage of the ABC over the ring.

     The only way that the ABC is available, (as far as I know of) is to buy one of Brian Gardner's conversion sets and make the switch yourself, or buy a set or converted engine second hand from someone else.. I don't know for sure but I'm betting that Randy Smith purchases sets from Brian and he converts the engines and sets them up with his venturi and such. Most people that have been running them are probably still on ringed versions, because they have not seen the need or just don't want the expense of converting the engine(s) that they have. Brian has only been making these in limited numbers for a few years so there probably aren't that many of them in use right now so you may not get a wide response. I have built up 3 so far with one in use. My flying buddy Mark has one from Randy Smith and as far as I can tell they operate the same. I think Brian has adjusted the timing just a bit and you can contact him for those details. As far as I can tell from operating mine so far is that the ABC version will be a very long lasting set up and probably will outlast the bearings in the engine! The fit up is very tight and precise and once it is run in, (and I have about 30 flights on mine,) it still feels like a brand new engine and if you over prime it it can get the piston stuck, so you need to be careful with them when starting cold. You can't use too much pitch on either engine and as far as overall power I would rank them even just going by feel and how they perform in an airplane. You can just flip a coin or go by price if you are having trouble deciding where to spend your money, or you can go all in and buy both! It's always great to have a spare engine for a model that you really like and fly a lot! But if you could only buy one regardless of price, and you are just really looking for someone to tell you how to spend your money, I would get the ABC version.
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Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: ST 51 Ring or ABC?
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2021, 09:33:54 PM »
Might maa differance on restarts on a hot day . ring / abc .

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Pays to shave the side . The bit with ' SPORT ' here . Solid on G 51 .

Take the lot back level with the G , polish on wet & dry . Custom .

so the %#*^ Screwdriver or whatever isnt disrupted mounting it .


Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: ST 51 Ring or ABC?
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2022, 04:56:47 PM »
Get the ABC version. Why? Less trouble getting suitable fuel (won't need much castor, if any), plus better fuel economy, plus no potential ring problems.

Tom Lay wanted me to run 24% or 25% castor oil in the ringed G.51 and ST .60bb he did for me. Pretty hard to come by unless you're prepared to mix your own. And then, there are a lot of folks who will suggest running at least a fair amount of synthetic oil to keep the ring from sticking. I've rebuilt car engines, motorcyle engines and ringed model airplane engines, and I'd be happy to avoid rings if at all possible.   H^^ Steve
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Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: ST 51 Ring or ABC?
« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2022, 03:03:28 PM »
   I have both, original ringed versions and some Gardner ABC versions I have built up and just started to fly one in an older model. I bought my first one back in 1994 when they first came out and it's still on it's original ring and has untold number of flights on it in two different models. The last time I ran it it was just beginning to show that it might be time for a new ring. I have only run SIG Champion 10% mixed with SIG All castor 10% mixed 50/50 in it, or straight SIG Champion 10% nitro in it. The castor just drips off it when it's sitting on the circle after a run. I hope to refinish the airplane and will probably do that when I do the other work. The ABC version has timing that is just a bit different I think, but runs very well, and will probably get better as time goes on. The Gardner ABC set I have in a LA.46 too pretty much a whole flying season to run in to the point where it would pull the APC 12.25 X 3.75 prop like it should, and I expect the same out of the ST.51.  The Ringed versions are easier to find. Brian only makes what he can sell when doing a run, so the availability is hit and miss.  Total cost for an ABC set up including an engine will probably be north of 250 dollars or more. You can probably find used or even new ringed versions for closer to $100 to $125. Either way, what ever your bank account allows, you can't go wrong in my opinion with either version.
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Offline Robin_Holden

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Re: ST 51 Ring or ABC?
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2022, 12:51:56 PM »
Good evening from Spofforth , North Yorkshire in England.

I bought a ST 51 many years ago , the C/L version , when my wife and I were living in S.W.France.
It was a nightmare.

After careful running in , it was installed in a Cardinal.
Wouldn’t hold a setting , ran away.

I contacted Mr Dixon  in your great country , and sent it to him,
It came back transformed. Holds a setting , starts easily.
It purrs on a Graupner 12 x 5 prop’ at around 9,000 rpm.

It is , without doubt , my favourite engine.

Just my experience.

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: ST 51 Ring or ABC?
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2022, 08:37:37 PM »
Good evening from Spofforth , North Yorkshire in England.

I bought a ST 51 many years ago , the C/L version , when my wife and I were living in S.W.France.
It was a nightmare.

After careful running in , it was installed in a Cardinal.
Wouldn’t hold a setting , ran away.

I contacted Mr Dixon  in your great country , and sent it to him,
It came back transformed. Holds a setting , starts easily.
It purrs on a Graupner 12 x 5 prop’ at around 9,000 rpm.

It is , without doubt , my favourite engine.

Just my experience.

   Hi Robin;
    You don't mention what your set up was for your .51 before sending it to Dixon. What prop, fuel, muffler and plug  were you using? And was it a full size cardinal?
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee
AMA 28784
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