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Author Topic: Remote Needle Assembly Question.  (Read 1973 times)

Offline Dave Moritz

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Remote Needle Assembly Question.
« on: August 10, 2019, 06:26:05 PM »
Fellow forum member Eliott (BYU) kindly laid on me a very nice OS 35FP without a stunt NVA or venturi. I'm now working on adapting a venturi I found in my junk drawer. The question I have concerns the NVA. I'd like to use the remote needle assembly that came with this RC engine along with a spray bar that I've got on hand (its matching needle is a piece of junk). Given that the original RC setup used a spigot, is there any reason I can't use the the adapted spray bar (threaded end plugged) along with the remote needle assembly? Spray bar diameter matches the 35FP specs exactly and it will center nicely.

Dave Mo...
It’s a very strange world we live in, Master Jack.” (4 Jacks and a Jill)

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Remote Needle Assembly Question.
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2019, 06:43:43 PM »
Fellow forum member Eliott (BYU) kindly laid on me a very nice OS 35FP without a stunt NVA or venturi. I'm now working on adapting a venturi I found in my junk drawer. The question I have concerns the NVA. I'd like to use the remote needle assembly that came with this RC engine along with a spray bar that I've got on hand (its matching needle is a piece of junk). Given that the original RC setup used a spigot, is there any reason I can't use the the adapted spray bar (threaded end plugged) along with the remote needle assembly? Spray bar diameter matches the 35FP specs exactly and it will center nicely.


   That should work. I used something nearly identical on my Fox 35 for a while, and if push comes to shove, you can always track down original parts, or the Enya substitute parts.

    Brett

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Remote Needle Assembly Question.
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2019, 09:04:35 PM »
  Hi Dave;
    I set  up several FP engines with the original rear needle valve that they came with, and the the spray bar was a similar affair to what they use with the o-ring style needle valve and plastic back plate, which goes through the venturi like a normal spray bar. I don't know if it's the exact same thing or not, but I'm 99% sure it was not a spigot set up, but a 'blank" spray bar that installed like normal with a fuel line nipple, just no needle. It was smaller in diameter than a typical OS NVA spray bar. I had a Brodak .40 in a profile model I had flown quite a while, had a tank all sized out for that and was working nicely. I was going to get my son started on starting and flying bigger model with that airplane, and thought the rear needle valve would help him with the operation of the engine and keep his little fingers away from the prop as far as possible until he got used to them. I put the engine together with that original set up which consisted of a metal bracket that bolted over the back plate, the NVA which it turns out is the same NVA that OS used on a lot of their R/C carbs and is a very good unit, the spray bar and venturi. I took the model to SIG to fly it in their contest to shake it down, and discovered the tank wasn't big enough for the whole pattern using 10% fuel! It was quirky to start and didn't cut off cleanly but I figured all that stuff out. I finally took the spray bar out and measured it and it was quite a bit smaller in diameter, and this was because it didn't need to be threaded for a needle, I'm guessing, so this opened up the choke area a bit and used more fuel. I dropped down to 5% and the old stick in the venturi bit to get through the weekend until I found a smaller venturi or I put a bigger tank on it, I don't remember exactly. But the engine ran the same as it did with a "standard" NVA. It took a lot more choking to start it cold, and had to angle the back of the tank out and fiddled with tank location a bit to get a better cut off at the end of a tank. If you plug up the needle side of the spray bar with something and install in a normal .250 or there abouts venturi, it should run like normal. I found that a little dribble of solder on the tube for the exit of the NVA towards the engine helps the fuel line stay on. You can't add a big barb or anything because you have to be able to take the jam nut on and off. You can also drill and tap a proper sized venturi for the 4mm threads that the NVA has where it would thread into the old OS carbs, and install the whole NVA into the side as a spigot set up. You'll need to thread the case for some set screws to secure the venturi. I hope this all makes sense, but in short, yeah, you should be fine.
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee
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Offline Dave Moritz

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Re: Remote Needle Assembly Question.
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2019, 12:26:31 PM »
Brett:  Good to get the highly-experienced go-ahead from you. Will keep in mind the ol' reliable Enya NVA trick. Thanks!

Dan: Nice write-up on your experiences with remote NVAs. Thanks for the specs; I think what I have in mind will comport well with them. The spray bar I've got is .158", and I'll be shooting for a throat diameter of .266" with a brass lining in the aluminum venturi. Thanks also for the solder idea. I'll end up doing the threading job you suggested in order to hold the modified venturi in place.

Carrying on, and hoping you do the same!

Dave Mo...
It’s a very strange world we live in, Master Jack.” (4 Jacks and a Jill)

Offline Dave Moritz

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Re: Remote Needle Assembly Question.
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2019, 05:00:52 PM »
Gents:

Here is a shot of the completed engine, ready for a bench run tomorrow. Prop is 10x5 and fuel will be 15% nitro and 25% castor/syn blend. The venturi turned out to be .270" with the .158" spray bar.

Dave Mo...

It’s a very strange world we live in, Master Jack.” (4 Jacks and a Jill)

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Remote Needle Assembly Question.
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2019, 05:11:08 PM »
Gents:

Here is a shot of the completed engine, ready for a bench run tomorrow. Prop is 10x5 and fuel will be 15% nitro and 25% castor/syn blend. The venturi turned out to be .270" with the .158" spray bar.

   That should probably work, but don't overlook the 10-4 APC or even an 11-4 or 5.

   I would be interested in your results, I don't have a lot of time running steel-liner versions. David's seemed to run OK, and mine ran perfectly well with an 11-6 Rev-up and was an OK replacement for a weak ST46.

    Brett

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Remote Needle Assembly Question.
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2019, 08:47:48 PM »
Gents:

Here is a shot of the completed engine, ready for a bench run tomorrow. Prop is 10x5 and fuel will be 15% nitro and 25% castor/syn blend. The venturi turned out to be .270" with the .158" spray bar.

Dave Mo...


    Looks like it's ready to fly. One neat thing about that particular combination is that you can flop the needle around it several different configurations to make it easy to reach, and not stick up making it prone to damage in an inverted landing. The o-rings in those are the weak point. If you have a finicky needle setting and can get some different o-rings, try those if the seem to fit a bit more snug. Another quick remedy is to coat the o-ring area in some heavy grease to seal the air leak and should improve the setting ability. I don't know if the old fuel line trick will work with these or not, so I won't mention it. Brett is correct about the APC 10-4. It's kind of a magic prop that always seems to work. I had a Jamison Special with an LA.40 in it that weighed in the 40 ounce plus range and it worked well. The guy I sold it to was surprised by that and tried it on a Fancherized Twister with a LA.40 in it and rear needle set up (I think) and it weighed in the upper 40 ounce range or more and pulled very well. I like APC props, I just wished they were wood! I love the look of a classic wood prop on just about anything.
    Type at you later,
     Dan McEntee
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Offline Dave Moritz

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Re: Remote Needle Assembly Question.
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2019, 12:28:28 PM »
Brett: It turned 11,800 with the wooden 10x5 and fuel noted above. Will try with other props as time permits.

Dan: It seemed to needle quite predictably. The rubber O-ring that you mentioned is quite flattened out as it sits in the barrel, but will keep in mind that this might be a future trouble point. Not sure where to find those little beasties.

Thank-you both for your help.

Dave Mo...
It’s a very strange world we live in, Master Jack.” (4 Jacks and a Jill)

Offline Dave Moritz

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Re: Remote Needle Assembly Question.
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2019, 01:10:39 PM »
Brett again: That 11,800 was on the test stand with the tongue muffler shown.

Mo...
It’s a very strange world we live in, Master Jack.” (4 Jacks and a Jill)

Offline Joe Ed Pederson

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Re: Remote Needle Assembly Question.
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2019, 02:20:02 PM »

Dan: It seemed to needle quite predictably. The rubber O-ring that you mentioned is quite flattened out as it sits in the barrel, but will keep in mind that this might be a future trouble point. Not sure where to find those little beasties.

Thank-you both for your help.

Dave Mo...

Dave,

Tower Hobbies has the O rings for the NVA for the 40/46 LA in stock.     https://www.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0005p?&I=OSMG1447&P=X    They are $5.99 for two of them.  Shipping for parts is only $1.99 at Tower Hobbies.    Tower has some, but not all the parts for the .25/.40/.46 LAs.  On Tower Hobbie's Home page on the top right side of the black banner, click "Shop for Parts" and scroll down and click "OS Max Engines."    Scroll down a long ways until you get to the picture of whichever LA engine you want.  Clicking on the picture of the motor will open a page with the available parts for that motor. 

 You could also get them from https://www.rcjapan.net     

Joe Ed Pederson

Offline Dave Moritz

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Re: Remote Needle Assembly Question.
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2019, 09:02:25 AM »
Joe Ed:

Thanks to you, I found 'em right away at Tower! Nifty.

Dave Mo...
It’s a very strange world we live in, Master Jack.” (4 Jacks and a Jill)

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Remote Needle Assembly Question.
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2019, 11:09:20 AM »
Brett again: That 11,800 was on the test stand with the tongue muffler shown.

Mo...

  Sounds healthy enough. I don't have any specific numbers to check for, but it suggests again that you might want to start with a 10-4 or 11-4, rather than a 10-5.

    Brett

Offline Joe Hunt

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Re: Remote Needle Assembly Question.
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2019, 05:17:28 AM »
the remote nva assembly has some real advantages it seems to me, but practically all cl set ups I see involve the  nva being incorporated with the venture. is there some sort of performance advantage for this? also I see venturi with different lengths. is that important? pardon my ignorance.    hunt

Online Paul Smith

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Re: Remote Needle Assembly Question.
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2019, 08:31:28 AM »
In my opinion, with a true SUCTION system you want the NVA on the venturi to shorten the fuel line and maximize fuel draw.

With bladder, pacifier, crankcase, or muffler pressure, you are OK and maybe better off with a remote needle.

The difference comes into play when you are running suction with the biggest possible venturi opening.  You will find that a front NVA works and a remote does not work.
Paul Smith

Offline Dave Moritz

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Re: Remote Needle Assembly Question.
« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2019, 09:03:48 AM »
Joe: Paul raises some good points. I also found (in this instance) that fuel couldn't be drawn up to the venturi in the usual way (covering the venturi and then propping). The only way to accomplish that is to pressurize the fuel tank with the filler syringe.

Dave Mo...
It’s a very strange world we live in, Master Jack.” (4 Jacks and a Jill)

Online Lauri Malila

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Re: Remote Needle Assembly Question.
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2019, 11:38:11 AM »
the remote nva assembly has some real advantages it seems to me, but practically all cl set ups I see involve the  nva being incorporated with the venture. is there some sort of performance advantage for this? also I see venturi with different lengths. is that important? pardon my ignorance.    hunt

There are more advantages than a hypothetical loss in needle response. My engines runs clearly better with a remote valve, because remote valve is isolated from engine heat, and also vibrations. Or at least aligned with a less harmfull vibration axis.
But I still like to keep the valve as close to venturi as possible, with my rear intake engine it means about a 1/2" of fuel tubing. L

Offline RandySmith

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Re: Remote Needle Assembly Question.
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2019, 04:32:43 PM »
There are more advantages than a hypothetical loss in needle response. My engines runs clearly better with a remote valve, because remote valve is isolated from engine heat, and also vibrations. Or at least aligned with a less harmfull vibration axis.
But I still like to keep the valve as close to venturi as possible, with my rear intake engine it means about a 1/2" of fuel tubing. L

Hi Lauri
It is not a  hypothetical loss, it is a  real and  clear loss for some people in many setups,  Yours is  very different from what most everyone else is  running, No ONE  I see has the remote  right at the venturi like you do,  They have a front venturi, with a  rear NVA bolted to the backplate.
You making your own engine , and being able  to setup as you have done, is  great, but  I doubt you will see this  on  any one else's  motor/model

Regards
Randy

Offline Joe Hunt

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Re: Remote Needle Assembly Question.
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2019, 04:51:43 PM »
what about the length of the venturi? I see them long and see them short. is that an attempt to tune the intake?  hunt

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Remote Needle Assembly Question.
« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2019, 05:24:19 PM »
what about the length of the venturi? I see them long and see them short. is that an attempt to tune the intake?  hunt

   No to really tune it, it needs to be something like 9-12" long to get half-wave (since it's open at the end) for the first mode. Longer is generally better because acts as a flow straightener, causing less effect when the airstream changes direction.

    Brett

Offline GERALD WIMMER

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Re: Remote Needle Assembly Question.
« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2019, 06:01:26 PM »
Hello
Short venturi's in my experience seem to result in a wet nose as the intake charge gets sprayed over your model.
I use a lot of remote NVA's on combat and sports models with the R/C style assembly attached with a metal strap to an engine lug bolt, to save it getting wiped out.
Used with muffler pressure they work fine as you get used to operating differences but other people seem to find mine trickier to start which can be a problem flying combat.
Regards Gerald

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Remote Needle Assembly Question.
« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2019, 10:32:48 PM »
the remote nva assembly has some real advantages it seems to me, but practically all cl set ups I see involve the  nva being incorporated with the venture. is there some sort of performance advantage for this? also I see venturi with different lengths. is that important? pardon my ignorance.    hunt

    The biggest reason for a remote needle valve, for most of us, is to get your fingers away from the prop. The set ups I describe were for my son when he was younger and still learning to handle engines. I would have been in big trouble if he came home from a contest missing any fingers or with his hand bandaged up! They can be finicky to start and get consistent shut offs on at the end of a tank. They take a lot more choking to start, and to get a clean cut off at the end of the tank requires  the back end to be kicked to the outside. Other than that, I thought the engines (mostly FP-35 and FP-.40s) ran the same in flight. All my other reasoning is in my original post.
   Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee
AMA 28784
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AMA 480405 (American Motorcyclist Association)

Online Lauri Malila

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Re: Remote Needle Assembly Question.
« Reply #21 on: August 23, 2019, 09:13:22 AM »
Hi Lauri
It is not a  hypothetical loss, it is a  real and  clear loss for some people in many setups,  Yours is  very different from what most everyone else is  running, No ONE  I see has the remote  right at the venturi like you do,  They have a front venturi, with a  rear NVA bolted to the backplate.
You making your own engine , and being able  to setup as you have done, is  great, but  I doubt you will see this  on  any one else's  motor/model

Regards
Randy

Hi Randy,

Of course, it would be doable close to venturi with front intake engines, too. Maybe worth trying..?
It does not have to be boltd in backplate :)

L

Offline RandySmith

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Re: Remote Needle Assembly Question.
« Reply #22 on: August 23, 2019, 11:58:09 AM »
Hi Randy,

Of course, it would be doable close to venturi with front intake engines, too. Maybe worth trying..?
It does not have to be boltd in backplate :)

L

Yes of course  it would be, but  most people are  using  remote  NVA  to get the  needle  AWAY  from the prop, so i doubt  we will  see many people putting a remote  back up to the  front of the  engine.
Yours makes sense because of the  rear intake

Randy

Online Trostle

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Re: Remote Needle Assembly Question.
« Reply #23 on: August 23, 2019, 11:32:45 PM »
Hi Lauri

You making your own engine , and being able  to setup as you have done, is  great, but  I doubt you will see this  on  any one else's  motor/model

Regards
Randy

As Randy Mentioned, Lauri makes his own engines.  They are a works of art.

Keith

Online Lauri Malila

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Re: Remote Needle Assembly Question.
« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2019, 02:02:00 AM »
This is getting off-topic but my (and Robbie’s) point is not to leave opportunities un-used.
There are many details that are small individually, but together they have a significant impact on stability.
Quite often I feel that, technology-wise, we are playing with leftovers from other classes that have moved to something better.
Of course it can also be made to work well, but it does not mean that world is ready.
L


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