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Author Topic: Re locating engine mount holes?  (Read 804 times)

Offline kevin king

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Re locating engine mount holes?
« on: March 13, 2023, 04:50:28 AM »
Hi all. Looks like i will have to drill 4 new holes in the engine mounts because all 4 of the current holes dont line up with the engine i plan on using. I was thinking of filling the holes with JB weld, re-dilling the holes for the new engine which will sit on 1/8" aluminum pads. Ive never done this before. Will the above method work? Will it be strong enough? The engine will be a ST51 and its going in to a full fuse Steve Buso Jaguar.

Kevin

Online Dan McEntee

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Re: Re locating engine mount holes?
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2023, 08:58:30 AM »
   I would use wood dowels slathered with epoxy. make them as tight a fit as you can. If new holes happen to run into the old holes, will drill more like original wood. For some extra peace of mind, drill over size just a bit, and epoxy some aluminum or brass tubing into the holes after you are sure the engines mounts easily and securely.
    Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Re locating engine mount holes?
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2023, 10:43:34 AM »
I would suggest make metal plates that will fit on the old mounts.  Drill holes for the plates and then drill the plates for the engine you are going use.  On some of my planes the plates become part of the engine and make the installing an removal of the engine easier. D>K

Reread the OP and if you do this the engine will sit higher in the nose.  But I have redone the nose some planes to do this. H^^
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Online Dave Hull

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Re: Re locating engine mount holes?
« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2023, 03:44:01 PM »
Kevin,

If the new holes won't overlap the old ones, I would go with Dan's wood filled approach--with a couple of exceptions.

First, don't force the dowels into the old holes. That builds a latent splitting force into the mount and doesn't give you anything in return. Epoxy is dense and pretty incompressible, and will carry any compressive loads you are going to see in the repaired mount. So you don't have to aim for wood on wood. In aerospace applications you always want a minimum bondline thickness to ensure continuous adhesion. For most epoxies the recommended bond line is somewhere between .006 and .012" thick. It is necessary on non-porous materials. The fact that wood is porous gives us some leeway in the motor mounts repair business. The porosity is further enhanced because much of the hole is actually end-grain. Still, I would rather have some clearance and get a full bond. Obviously, get all the oil out that you can on the old holes. Epoxy isn't going to stick to an oily surface--although it will mechanically "lock in" to rough surfaces--so what you really end up doing is "packing the hole," not gluing in a plug that will transfer load across it like the hole was never there.

Next, I would use maple or birch for the plug. You want to match the hardness and try to carry load across the hole.

If the mounts were beefy and the engine is not a beast, then having old holes is not such a big issue. Having old holes where oil can continue to invade the wood and soften it up is a big issue--over time. If you are not worried about the mount strength, you can fill them up with JB Weld. It is a metal-filled material with much better epoxy than I would have expected. I did pull test coupons on it for fun along side a number of other aerospace grade structural epoxies. It won't match an unfilled structural grade epoxy, but it quite good.

I added a picture of a motor mount "refurbishment" I did on a friends Legacy. It has a monster 4-Stonker in it and the whole front end was soft. So everything forward of the wing got the full treatment. The engine mount holes were way oversize and not particularly straight. The engine would shift around in the cowl and cause trim and other problems. I cleaned, then filled the holes with JB weld. Then, using a steel drill guide clamped it on and redrilled. It came out fine.

Probably all stuff you already knew, so I apologize for maybe restating the obvious....

Dave

Online Dave Hull

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Re: Re locating engine mount holes?
« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2023, 03:56:41 PM »
Kevin,

Using aluminum engine pads on stunt planes probably has a couple of purposes:

--To spread out the compressive forces on the wood, which can be easily crushed.
--To give you a spacer so that if your tank was fixed, at least the engine could be shimmed. For anything with a spinner, that seems like a poor method to me. Of course, on simple profile models with no faired spinner there was no downside, and it can be combined with a wedge function for outthrust.

It was a pretty common practice on racing planes (models) to use a beefy aluminum motor plate to allow changing to a different engine. A few things to keep in mind regarding Doc's comment:

--Only use a high strength aluminum alloy if you are going to thread it to retain the engine. I would recommend 6061-T6 or 2024-T4. Definitely not the aluminum you will find in a big box store
--Your motor plate needs to be thick enough to have 5 full threads. You might "get away" with only three for a while, but it isn't going to last. So for a 4-40 screw, you need something thicker than an 1/8" pad, because you can't count threads where you chamfered the hole so that you can get the screw started. I commonly use 3/16" material.
--In most cases, several of the old holes will fall under the lugs of the new engine. If so, machine countersink the metal plate and use flat head machine screws into the existing holes and blind nuts. Make sure the screw heads are below flush to avoid damage to your new engine. If the new mounting holes are really close to the old ones, this may not work, and it makes the whole scheme questionable. I really dislike using a long metal plate and trying to hold it down at each end and then screw the engine to it in the middle. Everything flexes and works loose. For the same reason I dislike the infamous "clamping bar" approach I've seen on some ARFs where you slide any engine from anywhere under the long aluminum clamping bars and try to pull it down tight enough to be safe without bending the bars and bending the loooong screws....

Good luck with your upgrades,

Dave

Offline Peter in Fairfax, VA

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Re: Re locating engine mount holes?
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2023, 09:36:47 PM »
Dave,

Thanks for the bond film thickness comment, with quantification.

I'm not sure this is well understood in the model aircraft world.  Instead, we often squeeze out all the glue with clamping.  In contrast, full scale boat builders seem to be aware of this.

Peter

Offline kevin king

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Re: Re locating engine mount holes?
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2023, 10:18:36 AM »
Thanks all for the suggestions. Excellent information. I appreciate all it.  H^^

Kevin

Offline Peter in Fairfax, VA

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Re: Re locating engine mount holes?
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2023, 02:58:20 PM »
Dave,

I really liked the "long bar ARF" mounts.  Until the bearers broke where the bolt goes through.  Those bores are even more prone to pick up fuel than bolts through the engine.

Peter


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