News:



  • May 07, 2025, 09:40:33 PM

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: Randy: Castor/synthetic Blend and Varnish Formation?  (Read 1686 times)

Offline Kim Mortimore

  • 2013 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 621
Randy: Castor/synthetic Blend and Varnish Formation?
« on: March 24, 2009, 04:41:50 PM »

Randy,
Today this statement was made on Stuka:
 
"All fuel with castor will eventually cause varnish formation, see Randy Smith's article at the top of the engine column on the 'other forum' for a full explanation."

"All fuel with castor" includes castor/synthetic blends.  As I read your article, not only does blended oil NOT cause varnish formation, but it actually REMOVES varnish already formed from running all-castor fuel so effectively that it can ruin the compression of a heavily varnished engine.  (Obviously varnish removal won't happen instantly, but over time running the blend).

Am I reading your article correctly?

Thanks,
Kim Mortimore
Kim Mortimore
Santa Clara, CA

Online Robert Zambelli

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 3033
Re: Randy: Castor/synthetic Blend and Varnish Formation?
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2009, 04:55:14 PM »
Kim - personally I think this whole bit about removing varnish and ruining an engine is nonsense.  n~ n~ n~

I have had many older Fox 35s that were totally loaded - pistons black, exhaust port partially blocked, etc.

I ran them HARD on both Powermater 10/22 and Brodak 10/23, both 50-50 castor/synthetic blends. I NEVER had a situation where the engine performance degraded, even though they were noticeably cleaner, including the piston looking new.
In fact, ALL the engines ran better on the blend. I now use the Brodak fuel in all my engines, including my 1950 Atwood.
Whenever I break in an engine, I use the same Brodak fuel.
No problems at all.

Bob Z.

Offline Kim Mortimore

  • 2013 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 621
Re: Randy: Castor/synthetic Blend and Varnish Formation?
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2009, 05:07:10 PM »

Bob,
Actually, I probably should have left out the part about reducing compression in a heavily varnished engine, since the main point I'm interested in is whether or not fuel with a castor/synthetic blend causes varnishing.  Since your loaded Foxes became "noticeably cleaner" after switching to 50-50, I take it you agree that 50-50 fuel does not cause varnishing? 

Thanks,
Kim
Kim Mortimore
Santa Clara, CA

Offline RandySmith

  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 13753
  • Welcome to the Stunt Hanger.
    • Aero Products
Re: Randy: Castor/synthetic Blend and Varnish Formation?
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2009, 05:31:45 PM »
Randy,
Today this statement was made on Stuka:
 
"All fuel with castor will eventually cause varnish formation, see Randy Smith's article at the top of the engine column on the 'other forum' for a full explanation."

"All fuel with castor" includes castor/synthetic blends.  As I read your article, not only does blended oil NOT cause varnish formation, but it actually REMOVES varnish already formed from running all-castor fuel so effectively that it can ruin the compression of a heavily varnished engine.  (Obviously varnish removal won't happen instantly, but over time running the blend).

Am I reading your article correctly?

Thanks,
Kim Mortimore


Hi Kim

Yes you are reading correctly, All castor fuel will varnish up motors, part synthetic will most all times  keep the inside much cleaner, and will , most all the time will also clean the varnish that is there from castor fuels.
I have never seen a synthetic blend varnish a motor.
I have never seen a blended synthetic fuel that varnishes up an engine like all castor will.
And  doesn't matter who thinks its nonsense, the FACT is sometimes a motor that has been heavily varnished will be degraded by cleaning the varnish off of it.
I have seen this many many times over the years and it does happen. I have had a couple of my personal old engines with this problem that were heavily coated.
 You can't remove a thick coating of black burned on film from the sides of a piston and the sleeve  and  not increase clearance and decrease compression. Decreased  compression  WILL  degrade  most engine. however  this  does not mean it will happen  to all engines that are varnished...it depends on how much is in the engine.

Regards
Randy

Offline Kim Mortimore

  • 2013 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 621
Re: Randy: Castor/synthetic Blend and Varnish Formation?
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2009, 05:35:43 PM »

Randy, Bob,

Thanks for your replies.  I didn't intend to  S?P  but sometimes it seems unavoidable on message boards.   y1   <=

Cheers,
Kim
Kim Mortimore
Santa Clara, CA

Online Brett Buck

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 14380
Re: Randy: Castor/synthetic Blend and Varnish Formation?
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2009, 10:59:49 PM »
Thanks for your replies.  I didn't intend to  S?P  but sometimes it seems unavoidable on message boards. 

  Indeed.

    BTW, even partial castor will cause some varnishing or other carbon buildup. It's just less (a lot less) than all-castor. Back in the bad old days the varnish seemed to only hurt on 049s and the like, but I can report that even on Powermaster 18% R/C fuel (castor/synthetic blend) you can get enough varnish buildup on 60-sized AAC motors that it affects the run (negatively). I had a slow power degradation on the RO-Jett, just like it was getting worn out. At Richard Oliver's suggestion, I ran a few tanks of straight synthetic through it, and it improved drastically in both power and responsiveness. I went back to my regular fuel, and it was like it was new again. If I could get a decent quality straight-synthetic fuel at the local hobby shop, that's what I would use all the time.

     Brett

Offline tom hampshire

  • AMA Member
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 391
Re: Randy: Castor/synthetic Blend and Varnish Formation?
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2009, 05:52:03 AM »
Kim - I stand by my opinion.  I have suffered reductions in power from varnish even with fuels offering a good lubrication package of both castor and synthetic oil.  The difficulty is that it comes on slowly over a long time, and sneaks up on you.  Its like driving an old car daily.  The rings and valves leak, but the power decrease is so gradual that you never notice it until, Oh No, a Divco milk truck passes you on a gentle uphill grade.  The problem is clearly much much worse with all castor fuel, and cannot be said to be universal in every engine using fuel with a mix of both lubes.  But it does occur, and most fliers seem to fail to detect it as early as possible.  I have certainly been guilty of being too stubborn with it, and continuing to fly with decreasing performance until the problem takes control of the situation.  That said, it remains to be seen whether the problem with Michael Duffy's engine is varnish or fuel system leaks or other,  That only points up the communication problems inherent in trying to solve trim or powertrain issues over the phone or computer.  Always chancy at best.  Tom H.

Offline RandySmith

  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 13753
  • Welcome to the Stunt Hanger.
    • Aero Products
Re: Randy: Castor/synthetic Blend and Varnish Formation?
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2009, 09:54:18 AM »
Kim

There are problems with blanket statements about "all" fuels, there are synthetic blends that will not build up carbon coatings and there are some that will.
Many fuels have detergent additives in them, or packages you can buy to add to fuels. Some syn-castor blends do not have any cleaning agents in them and will slowly build carbon build ups.
 A major fuel maker for example used to use Lubricin as an additive in their fuel to help keep the engine clean inside, Lubricin is a "detergent", however with the castor of the past couple of decades it flecks castor very badly and causes major problems.
 I am personally running 10% oil content fuel that is 75% synthetic, 25% castor and has an ounce of my additive package in it .
I have a PA 40 that has a very bright shiney piston top after over 900 runs, My 51 still has mostly shiney metal with only a partial brown stain on the piston top. The sides are very clean and bright. The 51 has over 600 flights on it.
On the other hand I have also seen all synthetic fuel that was used in a 65 that does have a slight carbon build-up on it.
 So take the information and use it to help guide you through this, just remember there are no "absolutes" in fuel.

Regards
Randy

Offline tom hampshire

  • AMA Member
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 391
Re: Randy: Castor/synthetic Blend and Varnish Formation?
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2009, 01:05:29 PM »
Hi Randy - I have been running a pipe mix in piped engines, 20% oil, 50-50 castor and Klotz.  This seems to give less varnish than 10-22 powermaster, which I use as a generic fuel.  Do you think the powermaster contributes to varnish formation more than others, say Sig or homebrew?  Tom H.

Offline RandySmith

  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 13753
  • Welcome to the Stunt Hanger.
    • Aero Products
Re: Randy: Castor/synthetic Blend and Varnish Formation?
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2009, 10:57:23 PM »
Hi Randy - I have been running a pipe mix in piped engines, 20% oil, 50-50 castor and Klotz.  This seems to give less varnish than 10-22 powermaster, which I use as a generic fuel.  Do you think the powermaster contributes to varnish formation more than others, say Sig or homebrew?  Tom H.

Hi Tom

I can't say, as I have not ran enough of their  fuel to tell one way or the other. I will tell you that with some fuels if you don't run a very rich needle, many will varnish very up badly. And  some people use a very rich setting others run hotter in a  more of a high switching 4-2 cycle. I have also seen a wet 2 cycle produce very heavy varnish, on many engines.

Regards
Randy

Offline Phil Spillman

  • 2017
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 806
Re: Randy: Castor/synthetic Blend and Varnish Formation?
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2009, 02:58:34 PM »
Hello Everyone, As a member of the model airplane group for over 60 years I have had my share of engine blues! Most recently on a Brodak .40 which had had many happy flights on one of my favorite planes began to act out of character, I took it out and had a close look at it. Sure enough my per engine had a case of the varnish accumulation! One overnight in the crock pot fixed it all up and back to happy motoring it went! The fuel in question was 10-11-11, half castor half synthetic. It's not the fuel's fault or the engine! It simply got too hot once and that started the growth of varnish.

Phil Spillman
Phil Spillman

Online Brett Buck

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 14380
Re: Randy: Castor/synthetic Blend and Varnish Formation?
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2009, 10:56:50 PM »
Hi Randy - I have been running a pipe mix in piped engines, 20% oil, 50-50 castor and Klotz.  This seems to give less varnish than 10-22 powermaster, which I use as a generic fuel.  Do you think the powermaster contributes to varnish formation more than others, say Sig or homebrew?  Tom H.

   I have run Powermaster 18% oil "Sport" fuel for quite a while, and it's not any different from SIG as far as varnishing goes. One thing that is different is the lack of a tendency to form "taters" on the plug element. It varies from engine to engine, but with SIG we were getting as little as 30 flights on a plug before the plug formed a tater and the power went over the hill. You could scrape them and see that they were carbonized black on the outside but sort a plastic-looking tan underneath. I think it's something to do with the anti-foam additive (some sort of silicone, I speculate) but with Powermaster I get almost none of it and run the same plug for a full season.

    Brett

Online Brett Buck

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 14380
Re: Randy: Castor/synthetic Blend and Varnish Formation?
« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2009, 12:17:04 AM »
   I have run Powermaster 18% oil "Sport" fuel for quite a while, and it's not any different from SIG as far as varnishing goes. One thing that is different is the lack of a tendency to form "taters" on the plug element. It varies from engine to engine, but with SIG we were getting as little as 30 flights on a plug before the plug formed a tater and the power went over the hill. You could scrape them and see that they were carbonized black on the outside but sort a plastic-looking tan underneath. I think it's something to do with the anti-foam additive (some sort of silicone, I speculate) but with Powermaster I get almost none of it and run the same plug for a full season.

   Since I have gotten a few emails about it, please don't over-interpret this. We started having this problem when we went from piped 40's to piped 61s - which run very hot in some conditions. And even then, it's only a problem on some individual copies of particular engine types. We never figured out why it was only some of them. We all ran Sig fuel for years with excellent results (aside from some sort of issue at the 95 NATs). I wouldn't hesitate to run it again if it was convenient. And SIG has one other feature - for a given stated nitro content, SIG runs a bit stronger than the others. So don't worry about the tater problem, just be aware of it, and deal with it if you need to.

     Brett


Advertise Here
Tags: