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Author Topic: Piston sleeve  (Read 2207 times)

Offline Onelife

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Piston sleeve
« on: July 22, 2022, 12:46:52 PM »
I torn the piston sleeve out of a Fox 35 and I didn’t pay attention. I’m ready to reassemble but I see there is a hole in it what the proper way to put it back in ? Thanks

Online Dan McEntee

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Re: Piston sleeve
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2022, 01:28:28 PM »
  The exhaust opening should be the highest of the two main ports, and it should center up nicely in the exhaust stack of the engine. If that is not what you see, then you have it backwards. I've never paid attention to the hole.
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Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Piston sleeve
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2022, 01:54:23 PM »
I would wonder if the hole might not be a tooling hole to be used while cutting the ports...but it's been 25+ years since I had a Fox .35 apart.

The piston baffle always goes on the bypass side and the head has to be indexed so the slot matches the piston. You can make a useable backplate gasket out of a postcard or index card...if you remember what those were! Cut the big hole first, slap it onto the backplate, punch the bolt holes, bolt it on and then trim the outside shape. I've sometimes removed the backplate, oiled the gasket and let the oil soak in for awhile before final assembly. Fox .35's are kinda light and flexible, so be careful during assembly to avoid binds.

Also, be careful with aligning the spraybar so that you can't see the holes (if two holes in yours). For a single hole spraybar, I sometimes mark the hole location on the hex with a triangular jeweler's file, so I can see what's what with that.   H^^ Steve
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Online Dan McEntee

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Re: Piston sleeve
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2022, 05:26:06 PM »
I would wonder if the hole might not be a tooling hole to be used while cutting the ports...but it's been 25+ years since I had a Fox .35 apart.

The piston baffle always goes on the bypass side and the head has to be indexed so the slot matches the piston. You can make a useable backplate gasket out of a postcard or index card...if you remember what those were! Cut the big hole first, slap it onto the backplate, punch the bolt holes, bolt it on and then trim the outside shape. I've sometimes removed the backplate, oiled the gasket and let the oil soak in for awhile before final assembly. Fox .35's are kinda light and flexible, so be careful during assembly to avoid binds.

Also, be careful with aligning the spraybar so that you can't see the holes (if two holes in yours). For a single hole spraybar, I sometimes mark the hole location on the hex with a triangular jeweler's file, so I can see what's what with that.   H^^ Steve


   Playing cards make good gaskets also. Marvin Denny turned me on to that for a Fox.35 backplate. The coating on the playing card also acts as sort5 of a sealer also. If using the stock back plate, it also lets the back plate seat in a bit deeper and decreases crank case volume a time bit. This helps crank case vacuum and that helps fuel draw. Every little bit helps! As to assembling the engine, I always chase the threaded holes with a good bottoming tap. With Duke being as cheap as he was, he tended to make the workers use tooling long after they were worn out and a work tap will leave metal in the hole it should have cut out and affects how the screws hold and how much effort it takes to tighten them. Chase one hold and you will be amazed at how much metal comes out when you do.. Don't try to make the holes deeper, just chase the threads.
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Offline Motorman

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Re: Piston sleeve
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2022, 09:28:08 PM »
The hole is under the exhaust port so, it goes on the exhaust side of the engine.


Motorman 8)

Offline Onelife

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Re: Piston sleeve
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2022, 05:32:33 AM »
You guys are Great thanks a million I got it now , had a old flyer stoped in yesterday and showed me the proper way and about the high side of the exhaust port. I appreciate the quick reply’s again thanks for everyone’s help. Thanks for the tip on making new casket that’s was my next question lol.

Offline Motorman

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Re: Piston sleeve
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2022, 07:44:26 PM »
Only tighten the head bolts enough so they don't fall out. The looser the better.

Offline Onelife

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Re: Piston sleeve
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2022, 08:01:53 AM »
Thanks I didn’t know that but I do know those Screws the head strip out quick
I must have bent the sleeve taking it out because there is a real tight spot when I turn it over. I couldn’t get the last 1/16 out of the housing so I used a Chanel lock on it. A mechanic I’m not. Sorry guys but I did learn something so all is not lost.
How do I donate to this forum I was watching stunthanger on YouTube and it said at the bottom of page click on work bench, I don’t see it. 
« Last Edit: July 25, 2022, 06:32:22 PM by Onelife »

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Piston sleeve
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2022, 12:15:14 PM »
One,
In the future if you have a tight spot getting something out use a heat gun to expand the outer part. As for you tight spot on the FOX first remove the plug and turn it over to determine where the bind is. Most likely the head bolts cause the issue. Losen one bolt at a time 1/4 turn, then rotate the crank through and see if the bind goes away. Keep going around the head until it is free. When you find the bolt that caused the bind mark it then check that the bolt is not rubbing against the countersunk seat in the head. If you find a bolt that is rubbing you can simply file down the side of the head a little to get clearance (if you replace the FOX screws with socket heads make sure you file down the head to 0.167" diameter). Now when you retighten the head bolts use a cross tighten method on the bolts (start with one at say the 2 O'clock then tighen the one at 8 O'clock, then 12, 6, 9, 3) start by snugging them then to a 1/4 turn all around, as you tighten keep checking for bind by rotating the engine through the compression stroke. Repeat until all are tight (not gorilla tight just tight). Once smooth it will run fine.

Best,   DennisT
 

Offline Motorman

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Re: Piston sleeve
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2022, 01:09:30 PM »
 Did you chew up the flange with the pliers? You can file the burrs off the top and bottom and maybe it will be ok. You might have bent the sleeve around the port area. Only way to fix that is by honing. Don't know where you're from but, if you want to send the engine to me I can fix it for you.

Motorman 8)

Online Dan McEntee

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Re: Piston sleeve
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2022, 01:31:37 PM »
Thanks I didn’t know that but I do know those Screws the head strip out quick
I must have bent the sleeve taking it out because there is a real tight spot when I turn it over. I couldn’t get the last 1/16 out of the housing so I used a Chanel lock on it. A mechanic I’m not. Sorry guys but I did learn something so all is not lost.
How do I don’t to this forum I was watching stunthanger on YouTube and it said at the bottom of page click on work bench, I don’t see it.

  By stripping out, I'm assuming that you mean the Philips head? There is nothing wrong with a Philips head screw, you just need to make sure that you have screw drivers that fit the cross PROPERLY so they do not slip. There are at least three sizes of Phillips screwdrivers that you might use in working on model engines. One size does not fit all. And Japanese engines have their own JIS sizes also. Just sit at your work bench some evening and go through your screw drivers and try them in a brand new or at least the best Phillips head screw for a Fox that you have. It should seat deep into the cross, and the point should not bottom out and let the driver wobble around. This holds for any size Pfillips head. I played around with this one evening and found that the JIS screw drivers I have fit some Fox screws better that standard tools. Makes me think that those screws came from "overseas" some where. Youhave to use the right tool for the job no matter what the job is.
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Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Piston sleeve
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2022, 02:12:24 PM »
Someone out there know the specific cross head (Philipps) screwdriver name for use on the FOX screws. As Dan said there are several Philipps head drivers and if you use the correct one the screws work fine.

Best,    DennisT

Online Dan McEntee

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Re: Piston sleeve
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2022, 04:27:42 PM »
Someone out there know the specific cross head (Philipps) screwdriver name for use on the FOX screws. As Dan said there are several Philipps head drivers and if you use the correct one the screws work fine.

Best,    DennisT

   With the Fox .35 being made here in the US, you would think that a standard #1 or #2 Phillips would be a good fit. The JIS system uses numbers also and I have those in #1.2,and 3. I think these ate technically philister head screws because of the tall head that they have?? All that meat gives a lot of support to the the cross and a proper fitting screw driver. What ever engine I'm working on, I just treat each one as a stand along entity and test fit a screwdriver before I apply any torque to it. I have some Kline multi tip screw drivers that I used at work that I use sometimes because they fit, and also Craftsmen brand, and a whole bunch of others that I have accumulated through the years, because there just seems to be so many different fits out there.
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Offline Onelife

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Re: Piston sleeve
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2022, 04:45:23 PM »
Yes heard that before lol right tool for the right job so true. Tools make the job. I think the previous owner had the head off cause those heads on the Philips screws were already a little rounded , but I will definitely Amit I could have taken the time to get the best fit thanks. I think I did bend the piston sleeve when I used the channel locks to get the sleeve out the last 1/32 or so of the housing, I really was Conscience not to put very much pressure at all on that sleeve but something happened. The engine was already seized up when I bought it, I bought it just for the sake of tearing one down and seeing if I could get it back together learning experience I thought about some emery cloth 400 or 600 and get a dowel to fit the sleeve with the hammer cloth around it and try to polish it out some but that’s where it’s finding I took it apart again just to try the piston in the sleeve and it’s  binding.
Thanks motor man I appreciate your offer but I have another Fox 35 that I’m going to test run tomorrow and see if it runs I think it will but it’s not worth the bother, not saying fox engines aren’t worth it, just This one isn’t, motor man.
Thanks again everyone.
I’m Still looking for that link to donate to Stunthangar.

Offline Motorman

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Re: Piston sleeve
« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2022, 07:47:13 PM »
If you try the sand paper, don't go more than 1/8" above the ports and, clean it well before you test fit the piston.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2022, 09:47:02 PM by Motorman »

Offline Onelife

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Re: Piston sleeve
« Reply #15 on: July 25, 2022, 06:36:49 PM »
Thanks for everyone’s help. I tryed to ask this
I’m a previous reply but I see I missed spelled and it did not make sense, I asked how do I donate to spark or this forum guys ?  I seen on a video on YouTube to click on work bench on the home page to donate but I don’t see it. 

Offline Motorman

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Re: Piston sleeve
« Reply #16 on: July 25, 2022, 09:08:34 PM »
At the top of the page you'll see a triangular logo that says Stunthanger 22.  Click on that and it should give you 2 choices, Request or Send. When I click Send it takes me to my paypal page to send money.

If you don't see the logo just click on some tabs until it pops up.

Offline Onelife

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Re: Piston sleeve
« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2022, 02:48:24 AM »
Thanks motorman thumbs up

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Piston sleeve
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2022, 10:52:20 AM »
If you don't do PayPal, you can PM Sparky (site owner) and ask him for his street address, so you can send a check, cash, or money order.

FWIW, it is very helpful to have your city, state, and country location in your profile, so folks will be able to give you the most appropriate information possible. But also, you may find a new flying buddy that lives close to you...priceless!  H^^ Steve
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In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Piston sleeve
« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2022, 09:29:40 PM »
   With the Fox .35 being made here in the US, you would think that a standard #1 or #2 Phillips would be a good fit. The JIS system uses numbers also and I have those in #1.2,and 3. I think these ate technically philister head screws because of the tall head that they have?? All that meat gives a lot of support to the the cross and a proper fitting screw driver. What ever engine I'm working on, I just treat each one as a stand along entity and test fit a screwdriver before I apply any torque to it. I have some Kline multi tip screw drivers that I used at work that I use sometimes because they fit, and also Craftsmen brand, and a whole bunch of others that I have accumulated through the years, because there just seems to be so many different fits out there.

   The JIS drivers tend to work very well on real Phillips head screws, because while they do not engage the entire slot, at least they use the outer ends of the slots, where the local force for a given torque is relatively small. Philips drivers to not work on JIS because of the opposite effect, the blades only touch the screws in the middle of the slot, requiring a lot of local force, which is why they strip out. 

    Phillips screws tend to strip using Phillips drivers because they are designed to "cam out", push the driver out of the slot as the torque goes up as a torque-limiting "feature". Unfortunately it also causes the center of the screw slots to strip because as it is camming out, it rides up until, again, you are only putting force on the center of the cross, where there is the most force and the least metal to oppose it.

   Many times a "stripped" Phillips screw can be removed with a JIS driver because it will go out to the end of the slots. The Fox is definitely one of those cases, it is *much safer* to try to remove or install the Fox Phillips head screws with a JIS driver than a Phillips. This is true even of the specific driver recommended by Duke himself - a Proto #1. When I was running Foxes, I saw this note in one of his "Dukes Notes" ads, and went to the not-inconsiderable effort of getting this specific driver down to the Proto part #. Worked no better than the one I had been using and checking it now, it is obviously too small and too pointy.

   As always - test fit them as noted above. A proper fit will have nearly no slop in any direction. Proper JIS drivers in JIS screws have *no* slop, literally none, and you cannot either turn or tilt the driver in the screw when it is properly engaged. It is FAR MORE SECURE than an Allen wrench in a socket cap screw.

   Usually, the correct size driver will look comically too large, and you might have to find a good fitting driver, and then grind down the shaft to get it to fit in the head fins.

     Brett

Offline Brian Hampton

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Re: Piston sleeve
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2022, 08:25:54 PM »
I highly recommend getting at least a #1 JIS screw driver or bit for anything using a Philips style screw head because these work perfectly even with actual Philips head screws. They can be difficult to find but ebay tends to have sets although here's a link to an American store for #1 bits. https://www.motionpro.com/product/08-0576

Offline frank mccune

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Re: Piston sleeve
« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2022, 09:53:33 AM »
      To Brett:

       Can you share information to support that a Philips head screw is more secure than a hex head socket cap screw?

      Tia,

       Frank

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Piston sleeve
« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2022, 07:14:07 PM »
      To Brett:

       Can you share information to support that a Philips head screw is more secure than a hex head socket cap screw?

   No, aside from the very detailed information above,  that's my opinion based on having properly-fitting screwdrivers. In my opinion, you would be able to twist any model-sized screw in half long before you could get a proper JIS driver in a JIS screw to slip or strip out. If I had some that were not in engines, I would demonstrate. I did post a picture on here somewhere where I was holding a 25LA by only a screwdriver in a screw with it cantilevered horizontally, IOW, the entire weight of the engine was being held by the fit of the screwdriver in the head.

  Of course, that could be photoshopped and I am just making it up to protect my extensive investments in the Hozan tool company.

    Allen heads are not remotely bulletproof as far as this goes, I have damaged both the screw sockets and the wrenches on model-sized screws (like the  2.5mm head and crankcase  screws on the 40VF).

   If you are stripping out or otherwise damaging "Phillips" or other similar cross-head slots like JIS (even if it is Fox), you have the wrong screwdriver, period.

     Brett

Online Dan McEntee

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Re: Piston sleeve
« Reply #23 on: July 30, 2022, 05:49:27 PM »
      To Brett:

       Can you share information to support that a Philips head screw is more secure than a hex head socket cap screw?

      Tia,

       Frank

   I can answer for myself that between work and helping other people in the hobby in retail and on the side that there are a LOT of people that can and DO strip out Allen heads for the same reason that they strip out Phillips heads. They don't have the correct wrench, and/or don't bother to clean out the socket, or fail to keep the hex on the business end of the wrench in good condition. I have said it before, you want the right tool for the job but sometimes it just depends on the nut on the handle!!
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Offline frank mccune

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Re: Piston sleeve
« Reply #24 on: July 31, 2022, 11:38:00 AM »
     Hi Dan:

     Great post!

     There are people out there who could screw up a free lunch by using sloppy work habits. 

     Stay well,

     Frank

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Piston sleeve
« Reply #25 on: August 17, 2022, 10:56:33 AM »
     Hi Dan:

     Great post!

     There are people out there who could screw up a free lunch by using sloppy work habits. 

     Stay well,

     Frank

Roger, Frank, etc....  ;)  WAY too many folks get those "ball-end" socket drivers and use them to torque screws much too tight. There's a very small area that is actually engaged, plus the necked-down area is not going to transfer much torque before the "ball" breaks off. Use them to just snug down the screw, then change over to a normal Allen wrench...they're much cheaper and most can either be cut off to remove worn end or heaved out. Use the short arm in the socket and light finger pressure on the long arm to gradually bring the screws up to reasonable torque. Also, note that some engines do not have a big enough counterbore to properly accept standard socket head machine screws. Don't cause yourself more headaches than absolutely mandatory!  n1 Steve
"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Piston sleeve
« Reply #26 on: August 17, 2022, 11:55:55 PM »
Roger, Frank, etc....  ;)  WAY too many folks get those "ball-end" socket drivers and use them to torque screws much too tight. There's a very small area that is actually engaged, plus the necked-down area is not going to transfer much torque before the "ball" breaks off. Use them to just snug down the screw, then change over to a normal Allen wrench

   Generally good advice, but, at least for model-sized screws, even the very cheapest ball drivers (like the yellow-hand kind from the hobby shop - Du-Bro, I think) will put far more than recommended torque before they fail. Even at a 45-degree angle.  I say that having used the same two drivers for maybe 30 years now, nothing else, to do more-or-less everything, only using the regular plain-end L-shaped Allen wrench when I need to use my calibrated fingers to put consistent torque on head and header screws, not because the ball drivers are going to break or be overloaded, but because you can get more consistent feel with a longer lever arm.

    I also note that I have used the same drivers to mount my engine, and for some of the screws, it has to be at a 45 degree or so angle for clearance. You can't even see the outboard rear screw, it's blocked by the filter and fuel line. For mounting screws, it doesn't need (nor can it tolerate) nearly as much torque as head screws. You are counting on the compression of the wood and the lockwasher to maintain tension, not entirely on stretch in the screw.

      Brett


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