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Author Topic: Pipe Failure, what did I do wrong?  (Read 3742 times)

Offline Martin Quartim

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Pipe Failure, what did I do wrong?
« on: July 25, 2012, 06:36:15 PM »

I would like your opinion of what could have possibly done wrong to avoid the same to happen again. My experience with pipe is only about 80 flights, so I do not have much experience with them.
 
I have been using this Brian Eather Pipe # 7 with the Enya 61CXLR Rear Exhaust in 2-2-2 with 3B 13x3.75 burning about 5.5Oz of fuel for 6min flight. I did not cut the header but I did cut the pipe a bit short. I thought the pipe would work at 18.5” but I end up at 19.3” resulting in a gap between the pipe and the header of 1”. I was using it in a 62oz SV-11 and it work fine for about 80 flights. Then I  remove this engine/pipe and install in a 70Oz Thundergazer. When I installed the pipe in the new model I noticed nothing wrong with the pipe, all seems perfect. On the 4th flight the problem shown on the attached pictures  happened.
 
I was using one tie in the header and one in the pipe over the aluminum  tubing and one in the thicker part of the pipe using a Dave Brown Pipe Mount.
 
The tunnel pipe end up to shallow and the pipe had to be mounted in an angle,  would that matter? 
 

Martin
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Offline Allan Perret

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Re: Pipe Failure, what did I do wrong?
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2012, 06:50:32 AM »
When you ty-wrapped the pipe to the mount,  did it touch the wing surface to put stress on it ?
I wouldn't think you would do that, but its the only thing I could think of other than defect in the pipe.
Allan Perret
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Slidell, Louisiana

Offline Bill Little

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Re: Pipe Failure, what did I do wrong?
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2012, 01:56:19 PM »
Hi Martin,

Did the pipe actually break, or did it unravel and the aluminum tubing came out?

BIG Bear
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Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Pipe Failure, what did I do wrong?
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2012, 11:02:10 PM »
Hard to guess what could happen just from photos but if the coupler was kinked from raising the pipe mounting as you mentioned it could cause the engine and pipe to run hot.  This could cause the damage indicated.  Also the pipe could be stressed at the coupling by bending the coupling.
This could happen if the pipe was leaking at the coupling also.

These are just educated guesses but I have seen damage similar to this caused by leaks.

Randy Cuberly
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Tucson, AZ

Offline Bill Little

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Re: Pipe Failure, what did I do wrong?
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2012, 11:08:26 AM »
I can see the faint line on the pipe end of the tie wrap.  So it must have been tight.  I suspect the angle the pipe was in plus the high heat in that area led to the failure.

Bill
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Pipe Failure, what did I do wrong?
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2012, 01:01:18 PM »
I can see the faint line on the pipe end of the tie wrap.  So it must have been tight.  I suspect the angle the pipe was in plus the high heat in that area led to the failure.

    It must have been much hotter than normal as well. Brian's pipes can handle much higher heat than any of the others we have used and I have never seen one with any more than superficial color changes, never any distortion or degradation.

    Brett

Offline Martin Quartim

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Re: Pipe Failure, what did I do wrong?
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2012, 07:04:58 PM »


Hi Allan,

It was not touching anywhere.
---------------------------------------
Hi Bill,

All of a suddent the pipe came free from the coupler and the engine ran an amazing 4-2-4 :).  I think you are right, to tight, stress because of the angle and high temperature all together. I will lower the tunnel, make some more air intake too cool the engine and the header and change the engine setup to burn a  lot more fuel to cool it down.
------------------------------
Hi Brett,

That is good to know about the Brian Eather pipes. I tuning the engine for 2-2-2 and seems the engine is running a bit more hot then normal.  This is a ring engine and I am suspecting the ring gap may be to tight, the compression when cold or hot is amazing, it feels tight like an ABC.  I wonder if high performance heli engines and 4S are all ring because they can handle better higher temperatures and higher loads.

---------------------
Thank you all that responded. Seems the main villain was high temperature.  So will try to coooool things down and not make the ties so tight.

Martin


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Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Pipe Failure, what did I do wrong?
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2012, 10:42:49 PM »
Most folks up here seem to run two tie-wraps at each end of the coupler, offset a bit so there will be a better seal at each end. No idea if this would have any effect on your pipe failure. It does look like maybe the aluminum tube insert was absent. ?

My understanding of the Heli engines being ringed is because when an ABN/ABC/AAC engine is thrown into idle, it cools off quickly and the cylinder pinch at TDC then stops the engine.  H^^ Steve
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Offline RandySmith

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Re: Pipe Failure, what did I do wrong?
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2012, 10:43:36 PM »
Martin
The statement about Brians pipes withstanding more heat than other, does not include my pipe, since I helped Brian with getting back to making pipes, I know what resin he is using, he told me and  It is the same one I use, and have used for nearly 5 years now, and is one of the higher temp resins you can get for doing pipe manufacturing, after the proper heat cycle they withstand a lot of heat, If you fry one, you have gotten it very very hot.

Randy

Offline Steve Fitton

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Re: Pipe Failure, what did I do wrong?
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2012, 06:57:08 AM »
Those Enya 61s can have a very hot run. A fellow club member had a hot run that burned the head to the point the glo plug came out because there was not enough head left.
Steve

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Pipe Failure, what did I do wrong?
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2012, 10:54:20 AM »
Martin
The statement about Brians pipes withstanding more heat than other, does not include my pipe,

   I haven't tried your current model, mine are all "Billy" version "diamondback" types around 10 years old or more. In fact the last one I bought came out of a box in the front seat of your van at the 2001 NATs before I, uh, defected to the other side. Brian's won't fit in my current airplane.

     Having said that, I actually prefer the old style Billy/Randy pipe to the others I have tried and that is what I use, first with the PA and then the RO-Jett. I had no luck with the Jett pipe or the Utah pipe, it never seemed to react the way I expected to adjustments.  At least the ones I have tried seemed to have inadequate exhaust outlet area. That seems to be a key on the RO-Jett, for a while people were intentionally restricting it for some reason. Mine only came alive when I used the Billy/Randy pipe with the largest exhaust outlet. The stinger also makes a huge difference, even the large thick-walled DuBro restricts the exhaust and changing to the thin-wall type and making it as short as possible made a big difference.

   It made less difference on the PA for some reason, probably because of proprietary differences that I promised everyone involved I wasn't going to discuss.

     Brett

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Pipe Failure, what did I do wrong?
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2012, 11:01:53 AM »
Those Enya 61s can have a very hot run. A fellow club member had a hot run that burned the head to the point the glo plug came out because there was not enough head left.

   I was going to ask about that. If I set up a PA or Jett with any sort of power for a 13-3.75 3b and 5.5 oz of fuel, I would expect it to run EXTREMELY hot. That's a lot of power and not much fuel going through it, meaning it is running very lean, and little oil to cool it off. Depending on which prop it was. I ran a 13.5-3.9 Eather 3B on the Jett, and no heat problems but it was using around 7.5 oz.

   This wouldn't be FAI fuel, would it? That's going to run much hotter than conventional fuel for a given power level.

    Brett

Offline RandySmith

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Re: Pipe Failure, what did I do wrong?
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2012, 01:14:11 PM »
My new pipes will flow up to an 88, maybe bigger but that is the largest 2 cycle I have ran them on.
Also the pipes are tuneable by  opening up either end, if the pipe seem too large and open, closing down the intake makes it act smaller..this work very well

If the pipe acts too small, opening up the venturie makes the pipe act more open.  this also works very well.

Other things that can be dome to tweek the systems are to use 8, 9, 10, or 11mm size exhaust deflectors

Kaz for example uses my 75 pipe on a PA 75 with a longer smaller tube inserted into the silicone exhaust end, with a large venturie  , others use the pipe as is with a smaller venturie

Randy

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Pipe Failure, what did I do wrong?
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2012, 02:23:31 PM »
My new pipes will flow up to an 88, maybe bigger but that is the largest 2 cycle I have ran them on.
Also the pipes are tuneable by  opening up either end, if the pipe seem too large and open, closing down the intake makes it act smaller..this work very well

If the pipe acts too small, opening up the venturie makes the pipe act more open.  this also works very well.

Other things that can be dome to tweek the systems are to use 8, 9, 10, or 11mm size exhaust deflectors

Kaz for example uses my 75 pipe on a PA 75 with a longer smaller tube inserted into the silicone exhaust end, with a large venturie  , others use the pipe as is with a smaller venturie

  I think this is how the myth about outlet restrictions for the Jett started, they were having venturi issues and restricting the outlet is similar to restricting the input. But not the same, for instance, while it has a similar power effect, the fuel draw is not enhanced by restricting the outlet, if anything, it's made worse (since you are getting less flow and less velocity - if you made the venturi smaller instead, you reduce the power but it increases the fuel draw).  What I think some of the Jett users missed was that there was something wrong with their venturi setup - like, it was too large for the power level they needed, they restricted the outlet, which just reduced the fuel draw and made it act even funnier. Add that to the incorrect pipe lengths that were promulgated at the time and, no chance. I think you almost always want to control the power with the venturi, not the pipe restriction, just for that reason. Once I figured out what to do with the venturi and fuel flow, then all that outlet restriction does is act, literally, like a potato in the exhaust.


  A point that is sometimes missed and in our case is somewhat misleading from the  "Two-Stroke Tuner's Handbook" is the relationship between the outlet and the boost from tuning. With a conventional motorcycle pipe as described, you want to make the outlet smaller because you get a larger reflecting surface. The limit is overheating due to flow restriction. But we have baffles, and if we are using them as the reflecting surface, the area of the tail cone doesn't make any difference and then a flow restriction in the outlet stinger is just a heat and power loser.

    Brett

Offline Martin Quartim

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Re: Pipe Failure, what did I do wrong?
« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2012, 08:49:08 PM »


I have been using Byron 10/20 Traditional Stunt Fuel. Not sure what is the synthetic/castor ratio  but in all my Ring engines this fuel works best. The other fuel I use is Byron 20/20 mix half and half with 0/25 home brew all castor, this fuel works best with my ABN and Iron Enya Engines, no so well with my ring ones.

I flew a 76.5Oz Strega for a full season using a similar Engine, but ABN and Side Exhaust with Muffler, turning heavier Bolly 13x4.5 3B prop set o 3.9pitch and it also burned 5.5Oz of fuel for 6min run. After a year the engine was clean and healthy, never overheated and it worked flawlessly.

The stain color from fuel is very different. The Enya 61CX in the Strega had caramel stains, this one with pipe has  black stains.

Is it possible that 19.3” is too long and making my engine to run hotter? 

I end up with the pipe at 19.3" because I felt the speed control improving as I moved from 18.5.. 18.75....19.3. Again the engine was working very well in the much lighter SV-11, I could fly as slow as 5.8s or go as fast as 5.3 changing the needle only and all worked fine.

Been thinking to go back to 18.5" pipe  and add a couple head shims to control the engine charging when maneuvering, does that makes more sense then using a longer pipe? The Engine has 145~146 exhaust timing.

Martin
Old Enya's never die, they just run stronger!

https://www.youtube.com/user/martinSOLO

Offline RandySmith

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Re: Pipe Failure, what did I do wrong?
« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2012, 09:36:55 AM »
Martin

You may find that the pipe is too short at 19 inches, with that timing you may need a 20 ich lenght, what can , and does happen if you run the pipe too short is you push hot exhaust back into the motor, I have had a few here that I rebuilt that even had the intake ports, and case intake by passes burned from this. Maybe you should at least try a longer pipe setting, not a shorter one, and if it is charging you can lower the nitro or raise the head, try both and see what works better for you.
I will email a lenght chart to you, if you do not have one

Randy

Offline Martin Quartim

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Re: Pipe Failure, what did I do wrong?
« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2012, 05:42:30 PM »
Randy,

Thank you for your input.  I am glad I am on the right track,  thinking about this the Thundegazer came out with a longer pipe tunnel.

Martin
Old Enya's never die, they just run stronger!

https://www.youtube.com/user/martinSOLO


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