News:


  • May 04, 2024, 02:40:57 PM

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: Crankcase volume question  (Read 2885 times)

Offline Terry Caron

  • 2017
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1107
Crankcase volume question
« on: January 28, 2017, 11:19:52 AM »
If it's not a too simplistic question, what effect does decreasing CC volume have?
NACA member, Huntsville, AL
AMA 249824
NRA Life Member

Online Lauri Malila

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1633
Re: Crankcase volume question
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2017, 02:40:06 PM »
Apart from having to re-calculate and optimize intake timing, the biggest benefit is that with less bottom end volume it's easier to handle more restrictive silencers. It's propably due to lessened tendency for interference- or harmonic pulses in the muffler-cylinder-crankcase -complex. L

Online Tim Wescott

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 12813
Re: Crankcase volume question
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2017, 03:19:36 PM »
Apart from having to re-calculate and optimize intake timing, the biggest benefit is that with less bottom end volume it's easier to handle more restrictive silencers. It's propably due to lessened tendency for interference- or harmonic pulses in the muffler-cylinder-crankcase -complex. L

I thought that it increased the pumping efficiency of an engine that wasn't going to be used with a pipe?
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Online Lauri Malila

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1633
Re: Crankcase volume question
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2017, 03:57:21 PM »
Well that's what I found out from my tests. In that sense our engine reacts to changes in a very logical way. I guess that is a good sign.
Also, if you look at F2D engine development after their silencer rule came, there is a similar logic.
But what happens between venturi and muffler outlet is a very complex interaction of various things. L

Offline Chris Wilson

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1710
Re: Crankcase volume question
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2017, 07:10:19 PM »
Also it limits potential maximum power as the engine can only hold ( I say 'hold' because the crankcase can be packed by returning waves) a given volume per cycle.

Reduce that volume and you reduce the 'possible' power.

Lower crankcase volumes expressed as a ratio to swept volume in normal model two stroke engines are about 1.6:1, getting the ratio higher  is achievable but involves some funky engineering (full circle wheels, sealed main bearings etc.)
MAAA AUS 73427

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.
 Nothing in life is so exhilarating as to be shot at without result.  It's not enough that we do our best; sometimes we have to do what's required

Online Lauri Malila

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1633
Re: Crankcase volume question
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2017, 12:53:15 AM »
..and I know at least one case where INCREASING case volume cured some asymmetric running issues. But in our case, DECREASING helped for same thing. So I think the correct answer starts with words "It depends.." :)
In my opinion, to keep things logical, you don't want an additional volume of fuel/mixture bouncing about inside crankcase.


Online EddyR

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 2561
Re: Crankcase volume question
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2017, 07:15:19 AM »
All the above may be true but Super Tigre made two backplates for the .40 and the .46. One has a lot more volume than the other. One has a notch on the left side increasing the volume. This backplate works better than the one used by most people as it allows the fuel to flow smoother into the bypass. The motor suns smoother and has more power for a given intake size. It has no effect on fuel usage. These backplates were used on combat and higher performance ST motors. Most have a boss for a tap also. These motors never had a problem with fuel draw with either backplate.
Locust NC 40 miles from the Huntersville field

Offline Terry Caron

  • 2017
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1107
Re: Crankcase volume question
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2017, 07:29:05 AM »
Fellows, let me say unequivocally that I have no technical background, so my question and any further comments stem only from what passes for rational thought in my head. And I have in mind an unmuffled system.
So Eddy - is the better run due to greater CC volume or strictly to smoother flow in spite of (or without regard to) greater volume?
Ref: Lauri's last stated opinion.
NACA member, Huntsville, AL
AMA 249824
NRA Life Member

Online EddyR

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 2561
Re: Crankcase volume question
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2017, 07:45:48 AM »
Terry
 The ST/46 crankcase volume is quite small to start with so the benefit is to better flow not volume. ST made the volume even smaller at one time by using a banded crank. Those motors ran great untill the band came off and ruined the motor. I had that happen during the KOI flyoff many moons ago.  HB~>
Locust NC 40 miles from the Huntersville field

Offline Terry Caron

  • 2017
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1107
Re: Crankcase volume question
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2017, 08:08:27 AM »
Let me also say that I don't plan to design engines, I just try to learn new things to "keep an active mind". And questions way beyond me often pop up during periods of rumination.
So if that ST runs better with either more OR less cc volume there must be factors involved other than volume and flow efficiency. Or is the lesser volume crank used in combo with the greater volume/smoother flow backplate?
« Last Edit: January 29, 2017, 08:34:49 AM by Terry Caron »
NACA member, Huntsville, AL
AMA 249824
NRA Life Member

Offline Fredvon4

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2099
  • Central Texas
Re: Crankcase volume question
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2017, 08:45:05 AM »
I should not write this as I find I learn a lot of new stuff in many of these threads (just reading) when actual engine folks banter about the science...

But then, I have several Fox stunt and Fox combat engines that-- seems to me--- got much more powerful, or efficient, with some form of a stuffer back-plate

I have no knowledge if Marvin Denny or Lew Woolard changed anything else inside

Not knowing the science or dynamics, I simply assumed the reduction of the CC volume, and to some extent, the shape of the back inside;  made the air fuel charge flow faster (or atomize better)  to over come (assumed) too large bypasses. I convinced myself this fills the combustion chamber better

Theoretical small engine 2 stroke dynamics are fascinating for me.

I hope this discussion continues and includes a bit about the mufflers, pipes, and SPI intrigue

« Last Edit: January 29, 2017, 10:23:12 AM by Fredvon4 »
"A good scare teaches more than good advice"

Fred von Gortler IV

Offline Terry Caron

  • 2017
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1107
Re: Crankcase volume question
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2017, 08:52:56 AM »
Your interest is appreciated and certainly of value to me, Fred - I always hope my sometimes foolish ventures into waters over my head don't just bore people to tears.
NACA member, Huntsville, AL
AMA 249824
NRA Life Member

Offline Fredvon4

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2099
  • Central Texas
Re: Crankcase volume question
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2017, 10:44:17 AM »
Terry
I just did a re-read of your initial question and have to wonder if you have a specific engine or CC volume reduction method in mind

Like I said above, my two examples of deliberately reducing the CC volume relate to Fox 35 stunt and Fox .36 MKIV/VI engines... Of course this is a MODIFICATION away from factory or designer intended geometry

I am convinced many modern engine designers probably have a better understanding of air flow, fluid dynamics, timing, Exhaust scavenging, thermal dynamics, sound dynamics----and a whole host of other factors for either a mid range controllable power stunt engine VS an all out screaming daemon combat or speed/racing engine

Another curiosity of mine, is about the early designers and, if or if not, they created some engines that were good by design or they just got lucky using a theoretical IT SHOULD WORK idea...

This thought comes to me by wondering about all the various methods many competition guys used to "hop up" some series of engines they were campaigning...  some fairly well documented and others TOP secret

"A good scare teaches more than good advice"

Fred von Gortler IV

Offline Terry Caron

  • 2017
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1107
Re: Crankcase volume question
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2017, 11:26:14 AM »
Two things, Fred.
Firstly, I do have a particular engine in mind but, with further information from folks who know about these things, it may turn out to be such foolishness on my part (wouldn't be the first time) that I don't want to mention it yet.
Secondly, it was, in fact, the stuffer backplate's successful effect (beyond rod control) that suggested the question.

Again perhaps foolishness, but I'd kinda hoped for something like "Oh, yeah - a swept volume:CC volume of N:N+.N is the best general compromise for stunt".
My alligator imagination can easily overtax my chihuahua brain.  ;D
NACA member, Huntsville, AL
AMA 249824
NRA Life Member

Offline Bill Johnson

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 535
Re: Crankcase volume question
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2017, 10:11:50 AM »
One question: Is the crank tunnel considered part of the CC volume?

It's been noted that with the Enya 45's, the difference between the 6001 and 6002 is mainly the tunnel size, and that sleeving the 6002 crank tunnel down to match the 6001 results in a much better stunt run. I would associate that with decreasing the CC volume resulting in better pumping action seen as increased velocity of the fuel/air charge into the CC.

Does that make sense?
Best Regards,
Bill

AMA 350715

Offline Chris Wilson

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1710
Re: Crankcase volume question
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2017, 02:13:37 PM »
One question: Is the crank tunnel considered part of the CC volume?

It's been noted that with the Enya 45's, the difference between the 6001 and 6002 is mainly the tunnel size, and that sleeving the 6002 crank tunnel down to match the 6001 results in a much better stunt run. I would associate that with decreasing the CC volume resulting in better pumping action seen as increased velocity of the fuel/air charge into the CC.

Does that make sense?
In a static, non running system then most definitely the entire volume that is valved shut by the piston and inlet cut out or 'trapped' is considered the crank case volume, including any ports and the crank tunnel.
Why? Because a volume is defined by all points being at equal pressure, and its not hard to imagine a static model engine containing fluid that has definite limits.

But ........... in a dynamic running system I am not so sure since there is never equal pressure anywhere, the whole system resonates or pulses, the upper and lower volumes are linked during transfer and if you consider a full engine cycle then the volumes step outside of what is  considered discreetly  'trapped.'
If this was not true then the engine would not have a power curve - it would be much more of a flat line.

The Enya 45's crank tunnel reduction in diameter I would say has more to do with an increase in gas speed and a reduction in condensation, since the tunnel is a high speed centrifuge that will fling sheared fuel droplets against its outer walls - the bigger the walls the more the area,  the higher the surface speed and more it acts as one collecting droplets and joining them into a homogeneous mass that is more difficult to ignite.

Sure it does improve the pumping action somewhat but it is not a high performance engine that needs that a critical consideration.

Hoping to make sense, Chris.
MAAA AUS 73427

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.
 Nothing in life is so exhilarating as to be shot at without result.  It's not enough that we do our best; sometimes we have to do what's required


Advertise Here
Tags:
 


Advertise Here