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Author Topic: OS 32f  (Read 1833 times)

Offline Dennis Moritz

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OS 32f
« on: September 19, 2022, 04:19:11 PM »
I had one that crashed broke mount. Very good runner. Trying to locate another. Are these nickel or chrome cylinder? Or ringed. Or both. If both how do you tell one from the other when looking at picture on ebay? Anyone with experience running the ugly helicopter version round and round going no where.

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: OS 32f
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2022, 06:43:00 PM »
   I think there were two versions of the .32F, both slug engine and ringed engine. The slug version has a nickel plated liner, don't know about the ringed version. The round head airplane engine is the same as the heli version I do believe. Both versions are pretty scarce, with the ringed version be more rare from what I have researched. Heads seem to be impossible to find to convert a heli version, I've looked! The .32F is a favorite of the R/C combat guys I think also, which makes any good condition example that comes available to not be available for long! Keep your eyes peeled at swap meets and such hiding in some one's junk box missing the carb and muffler!
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee
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Offline bill bischoff

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Re: OS 32f
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2022, 02:10:38 PM »
The ringed engines all left the factory as heli engines. They seem to run fine on CL airplanes. The only way to tell which is which is to look in the exhaust port and check for the ring. The case is the same, and all the innards will swap. Heli heads can be whittled down, or perhaps Jim Lee could make a head if you threw enough money at him. When searching for the 32F, also look for its smaller sibling, the 28F. The 32F is one of my personal favorites.  :D

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: OS 32f
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2022, 04:27:23 PM »
Most helicopter (model) engines have a looser fit of the crankshaft OD to crankcase ID, which makes them run more oil to the front bearing. A lot of stunt guys apparently complain about all the mess and raw fuel inside and outside their model. I'm not sure if running a double sealed front bearing would fix that. I have used a sealed bearing, but removed the seal on the inboard side. My objective was partly for keeping grit out (on a California FF site) and partly because I had the double sealed bearing for some reason, and that particular engine had a bad front bearing.  y1 Steve
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Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: OS 32f
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2022, 01:17:41 AM »
Thanks folks for the information. Very useful. Guess I can move the guts from the good running engine that crashed to another crankcase, if I locate an engine that is worn out.

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: OS 32f
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2022, 08:47:46 AM »
   Look into later versions of the .32. I have a couple of .32SX, I think the designation is. There are some cosmetic changes to the case but it fits the same holes. Also I  do believe the ASP .32 is a clone of the OS.32F but uses a clap bar to retain the carb. It can be used to retain a venturi that has a spigot mount NVA and flown that way without much work. .It is coming to swap meet season so keep an eye out there and on eVilBay.
  Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee
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Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: OS 32f
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2022, 10:57:52 AM »
 Ahh. Great. Wondered about the 32sx.

Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: OS 32f
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2022, 06:34:42 PM »
Looks like they all mount at the FSR 21/215/28 bolt pattern .

Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: OS 32f
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2022, 09:51:05 PM »
What about the knock off come later quasi imitators (or improvements)? What have folks found to be consistent runners useful in our applications? Thunder Tiger, ASP, MDS, Mecoa. As we make noise flying into the sunset, what cheap engines are of use? Aside from LAs, FPs and so forth, the familiar. Especially likely finds among the swaps.

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: OS 32f
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2022, 05:48:02 PM »
What about the knock off come later quasi imitators (or improvements)? What have folks found to be consistent runners useful in our applications? Thunder Tiger, ASP, MDS, Mecoa. As we make noise flying into the sunset, what cheap engines are of use? Aside from LAs, FPs and so forth, the familiar. Especially likely finds among the swaps.

  I have no specific information for any of the 32 clones. But when I was doing the small engine tests back in the 90s, *all* of the clone engines, even the real cheapies (like the Brat .28), ran plenty well enough to be a big improvement over classic baffle-piston engines like the Fox and McCoy, and many times other people were able to replicate similar performance. At least when they *left it alone*, or made only the really basic modifications like replacing the carb with a venturi.

   The usual way to screw it up was to add head gaskets, or use a larger venturi to Get More Power.  I liked the OS 20FP because it ran better, but any of the engines that came with a real CL venturi were favored over RC carbs or having to come up with a venturi/spraybar, which *immediately* requires someone to start taking it apart, which usually led to "improvements", which almost universally screwed it all up.

    Another thing we found was that even the RC carb worked pretty well, and the only issue was the tendency to do very small "step changes" in the RPM every once in a while, at semi-random. The most important thing to do for sport/stunt was the set the idle and high-speed settings just like an RC engine, get it exactly on at all throttle positions. Then, fix the throttle position in a ground-adjustable rigging (like a kwik-link, with a spring pulling out the backlash). Adjust to get the about the right speed, or slightly fast, by adjusting the throttle. Then, leave it alone as if it was a fixed venturi, and adjust over small ranges from day-to-day using the needle. You wouldn't want to use it that way for competition flying because these tiny little changes would drive you crazy, but for just flying your Super Clown in the park, perfectly OK.

    Brett

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: OS 32f
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2022, 10:59:53 AM »
What about the knock off come later quasi imitators (or improvements)? What have folks found to be consistent runners useful in our applications? Thunder Tiger, ASP, MDS, Mecoa. As we make noise flying into the sunset, what cheap engines are of use? Aside from LAs, FPs and so forth, the familiar. Especially likely finds among the swaps.

  I have an ASP .32 but have never applied it to stunt use. It looks to be the same dimensions as the OS.32 but the case uses a draw bar to retain the carb or venturi. I have read on the forums here and elsewhere that performance is similar. I don't know any timing numbers. Some  of the newer, .25 to .32 caliber engines have these REALLY ugly, large and heavy looking cases, so I have n interest in those. I have a NIB Brat.28 also that came with a pile of  other stuff and it is still in the box. I need to select a proper profile model to act as a test mule and try some of these out.

   Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: OS 32f
« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2022, 11:43:35 AM »
  I have an ASP .32 but have never applied it to stunt use. It looks to be the same dimensions as the OS.32 but the case uses a draw bar to retain the carb or venturi. I have read on the forums here and elsewhere that performance is similar. I don't know any timing numbers.

   Good!   And should you ever determine the timing, could you do me a big favor and *not tell anyone* what it is?  Every time we go down the "timing this" and "blowdown that", it immediately gets in the wrong hands (which, truth be told, is about every "local engine expert" in the country) and then someone decides it needs to be ground on and head gasketed to "fix" it.

    Note this includes the 40VF, that was famously dismissed as useless for stunt due to "typical radio numbers" - shortly after it won 4 NATs in a row, and was demonstrably the best engine ever made for CL stunt at the time!  And before anyone from the Southeast starts in on me, this was before there was a PA40.

    Aside from getting an initial pipe setting, most people would be better off not knowing what the "timing" of a stunt engine would be, and just trying it in various conditions, seeing what it needs, and then just going by trial and error.

      Brett


p.s. in a phone call last night, I was told of yet another example of engine butchery - guys carving 46LA heads to make them "hemis". There needs to be a "beating my head against the wall" emoji, why in God's name would you ever do something like that, and what does it accomplish aside from killing power?  Just because someone else (like Big Jim) happened to find that some other engine (ST60, presumably) sometimes benefitted from this, in some setups, 40 years ago, has absolutely nothing to do with a completely different engine from 3 generations later.

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: OS 32f
« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2022, 02:37:51 PM »
   Good!   And should you ever determine the timing, could you do me a big favor and *not tell anyone* what it is?  Every time we go down the "timing this" and "blowdown that", it immediately gets in the wrong hands (which, truth be told, is about every "local engine expert" in the country) and then someone decides it needs to be ground on and head gasketed to "fix" it.

    Note this includes the 40VF, that was famously dismissed as useless for stunt due to "typical radio numbers" - shortly after it won 4 NATs in a row, and was demonstrably the best engine ever made for CL stunt at the time!  And before anyone from the Southeast starts in on me, this was before there was a PA40.

    Aside from getting an initial pipe setting, most people would be better off not knowing what the "timing" of a stunt engine would be, and just trying it in various conditions, seeing what it needs, and then just going by trial and error.

      Brett


p.s. in a phone call last night, I was told of yet another example of engine butchery - guys carving 46LA heads to make them "hemis". There needs to be a "beating my head against the wall" emoji, why in God's name would you ever do something like that, and what does it accomplish aside from killing power?  Just because someone else (like Big Jim) happened to find that some other engine (ST60, presumably) sometimes benefitted from this, in some setups, 40 years ago, has absolutely nothing to do with a completely different engine from 3 generations later.


       HB~> HB~> HB~> HB~> HB~> HB~> HB~> HB~> HB~> HB~> HB~> HB~> HB~> HB~> HB~> HB~> HB~> HB~> HB~> HB~> HB~> HB~> HB~>

      Go ahead, pick one!!;

      I got on the LA.46 bandwagon kind of late. I have a Sakitumi that came to me with an LA.40 on it, so picked that to get experience with the LA.46. The Sakitumi is a fairly large airplane and pretty thick snow cone airfoil with no flaps. When I started to really get into it, I went looking for something  to just take the edge off the power on it as I had a issue with whipping up that wasn't being fixed with changing props. I had a chance to buy a collection of .46 heads that had been "hemied" out by a few different vendors and tried a few. I forgot which one I went with but it got me n the ball park where I could get the rest with prop and needle setting. Sometimes it would still muscle up in me so I switched back to the LA.40 that no one seems to like. I went through the same experience with a Brodak profile Cardinal  It is a bit smaller than the Sakitumi and I was stuck in a zone where I couldn't detune it to my satisfaction. It either was too much when ever I leaned it out to get fuel consumption to where i didn't need a 6 ounce tank, or it couldn't get the pattern in and just not enough oomph for my liking. So I went back to the LA.40 on that one also. Even a hemi head didn't help with this one  After fooling with the .46 for over two months, I had it pretty much dialed in after a couple of flying sessions. I've got a huge collection and inventory of off the shelf props, so I can usually find something that works.  Like I mentioned before, by next spring I'll have to set up a profile model for testing some of these .32 engines. I really like them in a SIG Primary Force with an 11" by 4" prop of whatever works, usually an APC, but one airplane really liked the Zinger Pro 11-4. If these cloned engines are any where close to the OS, they should react similarly. That's my way of testing, in the air doing the deed.  I don't do the degree wheel thing.
   Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

   PS to add:  Model engines aren't the only place where this is done. There are several brands of vintage dirt bikes out there that are notorious knee and shin killer when trying to kick start them. Way back in the mid to late 70's, the Penton 400 Mint was one of those bikes. The late, great Dane Liembeck worked out a hemi volume for the heads on those engines ( made by KTM) and ground a special lathe tool to cut the chamber with. Dane has unfortunately passed away but another noted engine builder has this very same tool and it is still in use to this day, taming the wild KTM 400 engine! This mod not only tamed the kickback on starting nut smoothed out the power over the entire powerband, and it will still climb a tree if you really need it to!
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Offline phil c

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Re: OS 32f
« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2022, 07:23:31 PM »
Dan Mc Entee- 
I use both the LA 40, and the LA46 in stunt planes.  The 40 with the a 10/5 prop and something Master Airscrew 3 blade.  The LA 40 with the stock muffler and 3 blade prop runs very well with a 4.5 oz. narrow tank in a Brodak Smoothie kit.

In a little heavier plane an LA 46 with stock muffler, or even the same plane, with also fly the Smoothie just as well, or maybe even a bit better in penetration with an 11/6 3 blade prop. Due to the length and twist in the blades, the 11/6 MA seems to match the smaller 10/5 in speeds at RPM.

If you build a kit Smoothie, or scratch build, use all the wood for the stab and make it about 20% larger than the plans.  I saw no sense in wasting wood.  A Smoothie with a "stock" tail doesn't have as solid a feel.  The larger stab/elevator makes a much nicer flying plane.

Phil C
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Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: OS 32f
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2022, 06:44:18 AM »
Often engine discussion is abstract, one setup fits all. For instance set this engine with this prop, this muffler, this fuel, that's it. Engines perform differently on different planes. Drag, weight of plane, vibration harmonics, evil elves, not the same. Even same model designs are not exact duplicates. Of course. Setting up unique parameters for engine tuning. This tree takes that into consideration. More useful.

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: OS 32f
« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2022, 10:12:10 AM »
Often engine discussion is abstract, one setup fits all. For instance set this engine with this prop, this muffler, this fuel, that's it. Engines perform differently on different planes. Drag, weight of plane, vibration harmonics, evil elves, not the same. Even same model designs are not exact duplicates. Of course. Setting up unique parameters for engine tuning. This tree takes that into consideration. More useful.

   There are definitely tweaks that can be made for specific circumstances - but only when you get a working baseline system, which, for quality modern components, is not random and can be achieved by following proper setup directions *to the letter*.  If it doesn't, it's not the setup, it's something else - one of your mysterious factors - that ALSO needs to be addressed. In fact you might consider that having a solid baseline setup *reveals the nature* of these mysterious factors, making them *less mysterious*.

 I have given specific cases and instructions for many years, and lots of times people come up to me complaining it "didn't work!". The cause, in all cases to date, was deviating from the details, and the fix was to *put it back* if possible. Then everyone thinks I am a miracle "engine man" because I got it to work - which they could have done themselves had they just left it alone in the first place. I am no "engine man", I spend a lot of time on these side projects and only publish stuff I know personally will work and is repeatable.

     The reason this is so important is that most people never establish any baseline at all, never have reliable decent performance, instead starting in immediately with "mine is a weird and strange special case" and just winging it as you describe. I would wager a guess that the vast, vast majority of the people reading this have never had a reasonable baseline, much less tweaked it to get optimum performance. This is partly because they are using ancient engines where you couldn't establish any baseline since they had random QA and then random treatment for years already. It's partly because they themselves can't tell whether it is right or optimum, and if not, what precisely is wrong with it. This is very common even with pretty accomplished experts, because while they might be able to feel something wrong, translating that into a paticular engine run weakness/flaw is very difficult, especially if you are just doing it by trail and error with no underlying theory.

  But more to the point - it's partly because every guy with a keyboard and/or a Dremel tool and a stack of head gaskets come along frequently telling them all the secret tricks you need to know, and even if they try to run a proven baseline, there are a bunch of people hanging around telling them it won't work or there is some mysterious and unknowable magic factor involved that makes the effort pointless. Like this post.

    Brett

Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: OS 32f
« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2022, 08:34:07 PM »
Baseline differs from design to design, even differs from model to model of same design. Been my experience. Been the experience of flyers I've flown with. Also depends on engine. Some engine designs are more tolerant than others, more forgiving in tune. Others less tolerant. LA46s, LA25s seem to have a wider comfort zone. FP 40s, better get it right. Profiles frequently, full bodies less so, are subject to vibration gremlins. I've seen perfectly fine running LA46s, get weird when switched from one profile to another. A club member gave me a nice looking Skyray, turned out to be another example. Powered by a decent running FP20 with stock muffler etc., wouldn't pull plane through a wingover. Could have been line length. Didn't seem excessive. Hours were spent trying to get the power up enough. An Fp25 with a tongue muffler, no problem. Still a nice flying combination. Folks have reported better results with FP20s, stock muffler, venturi, and so forth. There's also issues with engines running differently in different locals. Engines running differently at Carmichaels than in Philly. Bedeviling. Needed to be retuned. Higher nitro helping. Again. Some engines more sensitive than others. Also, issue of wear. I've had LA46s run fat and sassy for a long while. Then become erratic. All usual suspected issues looked at. Clogged filter, loose something or other. We think it was front bushing wear.  Engine was tried on different planes, different tanks. Also, on other end, issue of break in. Well broken in engines calm down, run better, even incrementally. Even true for those engines often though to not need break in time. FPs, LAs, run well at first, then run better.



« Last Edit: October 25, 2022, 06:04:49 AM by Dennis Moritz »

Offline phil c

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Re: OS 32f
« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2022, 04:26:09 PM »
Ahh. Great. Wondered about the 32sx.

The OS engines are all pretty well designed.  The LA 40 and LA 46 were designed for sport flying, which suit PA pretty well out of the box.  The only thing I add is the stock muffler.  Very smooth and pretty quiet.
phil Cartier

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: OS 32f
« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2022, 10:53:00 AM »
I'm a fan of the Magnum XLS .36, OS .46LA, and Super Tigre G.51 for "cheap" stunt engines. None require anything magical. Just the right prop, fuel, glowplug, and venturi around .275" with a Randy Aero NV Assy. (.156")...yeah, for all three engines. The G.51 is hampered by being ringed, of course, but Brian Gardner's ABC setup fixes that. I liked the OS .46LA muffler on the Magnum .36, and a Randy Aero tube muffler on the .46LA. The ST muffler is quiet but huge and ugly, so I like a Randy Aero tube muffler on it. And, I like muffler pressure on most everything.

Finding the right propeller is a major deal. The .36 is perfect with the TT 11x4.5, the .46 is great with an APC 11.5x4, and the .51 is easy to please with an APC 12.25x3.75, 12-4, or 12-5.  y1 Steve
"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.


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