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Author Topic: O&R 23 FRV wont run  (Read 2655 times)

Offline Richard Logston

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O&R 23 FRV wont run
« on: June 07, 2014, 10:42:24 PM »
I have been trying to start this engine for the last 3-4 days and only got one run of about 3-4 min. Today it started after many flips and ran for about 10-20 seconds and after removing the battery from the glow plug it stopped. This engine was given to me by a friend who has purchased it from ebay. The engine shows no signs of real use or much running. Still looks like it did new back in the day. The needle valve has two holes and are positioned at right angles to the venturi in coming air, otherwise for and aft. Engine has good compression. It pops a lot when flipped and tries to run but wont. I have it on a test stand with a 9-4 prop. Today I removed the front rotor and piston and saw no signs of wear in fact it all looked new. The rod bearings were a nice fit. I'm leaning toward fuel draw as the problem. My starting procedure is fill tank choke until fuel reaches the venture, squirt some fuel in the exhaust bring piston up to starting position attach glow driver hold prop firmly feeling for the bump and the flip prop. At this point it usually pops or maybe to or three pops in a row. Also it has a tendency to run backward a lot while burning out the prime. I'm thinking about trying a different NV assy. I have been running Model airplane engines since 1947 and never have had one give me trouble like this one. My first engine age 12 was a O&R 19 side port on ignition. That engine would start easy and was very predictable. This engine has the restrictor in the venture. Has anyone had this experience with the O&R FRV engine? You can see the engine in the open forum under Dynamic. Richard

Offline Andrew Hathaway

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Re: O&R 23 FRV wont run
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2014, 07:09:54 AM »
Today it started after many flips and ran for about 10-20 seconds and after removing the battery from the glow plug it stopped.

Have you tried another plug? 

I have a few O&Rs, a pair of sideport 23s, a FRV 29 glow, and a 33 ign.  I can't say much good about the FRV engines.  They'd start easily enough, but they don't make much power, wouldn't run consistently, and they shake as bad as any Fox 35.  The plane I built for the .33 has an OK .29 on it now.

 

Online FLOYD CARTER

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Re: O&R 23 FRV wont run
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2014, 11:06:31 AM »
I also have a few O&R 29 FRV.  I can't agree about "low power".  Not as strong as a Torp 29 or a Fox, but good enough for the correct size plane.

I suspect your NVA is a replacement.  The O&R NVA has one hole which points down. The venturi insert is also necessary.

I have had good luck using Thunderbolt glo plugs and ordinary Sig 10% nitro fuel.  I think I have used 9-6 wood props, but a 10-5 would also work.

The only problem with these old engines, is the cylinder to case gasket shrinks and leaks. Note if any fuel is coming from that area.  You can fix it with some JB Weld.

Floyd

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Online Brett Buck

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Re: O&R 23 FRV wont run
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2014, 12:16:41 PM »
I have been trying to start this engine for the last 3-4 days and only got one run of about 3-4 min. Today it started after many flips and ran for about 10-20 seconds and after removing the battery from the glow plug it stopped.


   I don't have a front-rotor but my Dad's 23 sideport would not run on 5% nitro with the glow plug disconnected, stopping the instant it was disconnected. This despite any glow plug I tried, including an original Arden with a replaceable element. That was a long time ago, and now, knowing that a lot of the early glow fuel contained lots of nitro and some ether, I would try a much stronger fuel. But not expect very much

   BTW, I wouldn't run it on a 9-4, I would think something like a 10-6 or slower.

    Brett

Online FLOYD CARTER

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Re: O&R 23 FRV wont run
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2014, 05:42:49 PM »
OK.  I missed the part about not running unless battery is connected.  You certainly must try different plugs, and perhaps fuel.  Although I believe this engine will run on almost any fuel that has 20% or more oil.  It is low compression, so maybe a bit more nitro will tend to "boost" the virtual compression.

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Offline Terry Caron

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Re: O&R 23 FRV wont run
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2014, 04:00:52 PM »
Hi Richard -
I just received a 2nd eBay .23 today.
Both of mine have the same NVA I see on yours, with 2-hole spraybars & inserts, and they run well ~2 turns out (wet 2-stroke) on 72/28 meth/castor.
This one is a bit harder to start but I'm new to it.
If you must finger choke to get a run, it's too lean - you're richening it with choke.
I think you need both spraybar holes.
I also highly recommend Thunderbolt R/C Long plugs.

FWIW, an early engine review notes a 9x6 prop @ 8900 rpm.

I'd hate to see you give up on the O&R, but I understand the frustration.

Terry
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Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: O&R 23 FRV wont run
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2014, 07:09:49 PM »
I'd look at the spraybar/NV...would the two holes be offset from CL, like the Fox .35's? If so, turning it 180* might fix it. Sometimes, machined things are not what was intended, due to dull drill or an off day, or whatever.

Next thought would be a vacuum leak at the frontend gasket or cylinder base gasket. The cylinder base gaskets are known to dry out and lose the seal. I would consider soaking the thing in some sort of thin oily stuff to try and moisturize that gasket...ATF or Marvel Mystery Oil might do it. There was a guy that could remove the cylinder and replace the gasket, but I think he's passed away, and don't know if anybody else has taken up the task. D>K Steve
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Offline Richard Logston

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Re: O&R 23 FRV wont run
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2014, 09:08:36 AM »
Can't thank everyone enough for your well received input regarding my O&R 23FRV engine problems. I'm still working on it and will eventually find the problem. Richard

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Re: O&R 23 FRV wont run
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2014, 12:28:45 PM »
I agree that symptoms point to a leak of crankcase compression.  The front cover gasket is very thin paper, which doesn't seal very well.  Also check for a leak around the needle valve body.  A fiber washer on each side will help.  They often leak around the cylinder to crankcase gasket.  This can't be replaced, so sealing with JB Weld or even bathtub caulk will work.

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Offline Terry Caron

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Re: O&R 23 FRV wont run
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2014, 04:46:13 PM »
Richard, I don't know if this will increase your frustration or give you hope, but I found the .23 I just got has a leaky cyl/case gasket and some main bearing slop.
Of course, there are leaks and then there are leaks.

Nonetheless, on 0 Nitro/72 Meth/28 Castor homebrew w/T'bolt Long I get these bench results:
8x4 APC, 12.3 K rpm
81/8x6 Tornado (cut down), 11.0 K
9x6 APC, 10.4 K
10x4 Tornado, 9.7 K

Draw your own conclusions about power, but seems respectable for it's age.
And I don't have a 'plane ready for it, so can't say anything about longevity.

Terry
« Last Edit: June 14, 2014, 06:48:09 PM by Terry Caron »
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Re: O&R 23 FRV wont run
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2014, 11:03:36 AM »
The late George Tallent, who lived on a ranch outside of Tucson, had all the tooling to remove O&R cylinders and replace the gasket.  The real trick was getting a good seal while simultaneously spot welding the cylinder back.
I doubt that anyone will be able to repair these engines in the future.
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Offline Richard Logston

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Re: O&R 23 FRV wont run
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2014, 05:07:48 PM »
So you say they are spot welded in two places front and back? I noticed the bosses on the front and back of the main case so I am assuming that is the area of the spot welds. I may be wrong but I don't see where it would be too difficult to repair if one had the right type welder. Am I right or wrong? Richard

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