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Engine basics => Engine set up tips => Topic started by: Les Byrd on February 04, 2013, 07:15:01 AM

Title: Machining a Lighter Engine
Post by: Les Byrd on February 04, 2013, 07:15:01 AM
Has anyone successfully shaved superfluous metal from the cases of some of the powerful but heavy IC's.  I look at the ST .51, the entire OS AX series, possibly the old Veco/K&B/Mecoa .61's, the teardrop rear of the Evo .60 case and head, and I can't help think that their cases are needlessly "beefy."  Not a machinist, my thoughts include files, rasps, and sanding discs!  I know, I know- "Horrors-I can't watch"....but since we're not opperating in screaming-lean R/C mode, I doubt that all the case strength or heat disippation is required for our application.
Title: Re: Machining a Lighter Engine
Post by: Bootlegger on February 04, 2013, 08:55:20 AM


  If memory serves, and sometime it don't, Carl Shoup had a write up in Stunt News a couple of years ago where he reduced the weight of an OS LA 46 by a couple of ounces.
  You might check with him on this...
Title: Re: Machining a Lighter Engine
Post by: RandySmith on February 04, 2013, 10:08:07 AM
You can machine for hours, and expect  grams NOT ounces, I don't believe anyone can take 2 ounces off of an LA 46 and keep all parts and make the engine still work... nOw you can unbolt the muffler and do that,
I have machined on many engines for hours to lighten them, 1/2 ounce is a ton of metal shavings, and about what you can expect, unless you start with a very very beefy heavy motor

Randy
Title: Re: Machining a Lighter Engine
Post by: phil c on February 04, 2013, 02:02:49 PM
It's possible to get significant weight off an engine.  Typical F2D engine weighs about 130 gr.  A Magnum 15 or TT 15 weigh around 160 gr.  similarly equipped.  The main savings is in the case.  The lighter engine has a case with ~ 0.040 thick walls.  The TT 15 has ~ 0.090 walls plus a small amount of decoration.

The problem with making that kind of difference on an LA 45 is thinning the case overall by 40% or so, without cutting through the walls.  The only well-controlled way to do it would be with CNC machining.  That would require making a very accurate internal model of the engine to use as a machining guide.  Might be easier and cheaper to just design and cast your own case.
Title: Re: Machining a Lighter Engine
Post by: Brett Buck on February 04, 2013, 02:12:51 PM
It's possible to get significant weight off an engine.  Typical F2D engine weighs about 130 gr.  A Magnum 15 or TT 15 weigh around 160 gr.  similarly equipped.  The main savings is in the case.  The lighter engine has a case with ~ 0.040 thick walls.  The TT 15 has ~ 0.090 walls plus a small amount of decoration.

The problem with making that kind of difference on an LA 45 is thinning the case overall by 40% or so, without cutting through the walls.  The only well-controlled way to do it would be with CNC machining.  That would require making a very accurate internal model of the engine to use as a machining guide.  Might be easier and cheaper to just design and cast your own case.

   That's not the only problem. Changing the thermal mass and other thermal characteristics matters, too. My help or hurt, but not likely to stay the same.

    Brett
Title: Re: Machining a Lighter Engine
Post by: RandySmith on February 04, 2013, 03:36:55 PM
It's possible to get significant weight off an engine.  Typical F2D engine weighs about 130 gr.  A Magnum 15 or TT 15 weigh around 160 gr.  similarly equipped.  The main savings is in the case.  The lighter engine has a case with ~ 0.040 thick walls.  The TT 15 has ~ 0.090 walls plus a small amount of decoration.

The problem with making that kind of difference on an LA 45 is thinning the case overall by 40% or so, without cutting through the walls.  The only well-controlled way to do it would be with CNC machining.  That would require making a very accurate internal model of the engine to use as a machining guide.  Might be easier and cheaper to just design and cast your own case.


If you take 2 ounces off of an LA 46 , it will not ever run correctly, or maybe ever run again.

Randy
Title: Re: Machining a Lighter Engine
Post by: RandySmith on February 04, 2013, 03:39:07 PM
  That's not the only problem. Changing the thermal mass and other thermal characteristics matters, too. My help or hurt, but not likely to stay the same.

    Brett


UH HUH  Exactly, that is also a large problem. Removing material in significant quantities , will almost NEVER ,result in a stunt engine running better.

And I can tell you I replaced many dozens heads that people ground the fins off of, trying to make the motor lighter, Then the motor would not run right, or cycle correctly for stunt.

Randy
Title: Re: Machining a Lighter Engine
Post by: Bootlegger on February 04, 2013, 05:26:36 PM

  Yeah, Randy's right, I shouldn't used the term "ounces" so loosely, it isn't that much.
  I apologize ...
Title: Re: Machining a Lighter Engine
Post by: Chris Wilson on February 04, 2013, 06:43:30 PM
Possibly grinding off the beam mounts and simply using the back plate bolts radial style and substituting the steel prop nut for a combined washer and alloy sleeve nut may help a little.

Grasping at straws here but are ceramic bearings any lighter than all steel ones?
Title: Re: Machining a Lighter Engine
Post by: ash on February 04, 2013, 07:49:52 PM
In some of the bigger engines the crankshaft is responsible for a large portion of the excess weight and you can't do anything about it.

After many many years of wasted effort I've finally (almost) learned that it is usually better to leave the not-quite-right engines alone and just buy one that works properly as it is.
Title: Re: Machining a Lighter Engine
Post by: RandySmith on February 04, 2013, 09:41:10 PM
  Yeah, Randy's right, I shouldn't used the term "ounces" so loosely, it isn't that much.
  I apologize ...

Hi Nothing to apologize for,
 You would not believe how large a pile ,an ounce of shavings from aluminum are coming off a lathe. it take a lot to remove ounces....

Randy
Title: Re: Machining a Lighter Engine
Post by: fred krueger on February 12, 2013, 09:50:51 PM
Jim Lee spent some time removing material on his Evo 60.  I think he managed to remove around 3/4 oz.  Contact Jim to find out his results.

Fred
Title: Re: Machining a Lighter Engine
Post by: L0U CRANE on February 15, 2013, 03:16:57 PM
And I think John Wright shaved quite a bit off a Series 21 McCoy. LOOKED like a lot, anyway...

For those who may not remember them, the Series 21 McCoys had steel fin sleeves with Dykes ring aluminum pistons. the lower case was bulky, blocky and looked like it was made that way for appearance, not performance.

They ran well, and lasted pretty well if you took tender loving care of that (at that time, new) kind of ring. Performance was like we had wished alll the McCoys ran when they were most popular, and a bit better. But, an 8+ ounce 35 was a bit hefty.

John Wright never said how much weight he'd cut off. The bottom end on these engines had a lot of metal that could not have helped strength, or likely added much for cooling...
Title: Re: Machining a Lighter Engine
Post by: Steve Helmick on February 15, 2013, 05:38:56 PM
Larry Foster did a weight reduction on a .46LA for Bob Smiley; I saw it on one of his planes, but can't recall which. I'm sure the Tucson crew will remember it well! There's a lot more weight to be removed on the muffler, or by replacing same.  Z@@ZZZ Steve