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Author Topic: Lean first minute then settles only on first flight?  (Read 1708 times)

Offline Dennis Toth

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Lean first minute then settles only on first flight?
« on: June 24, 2018, 05:51:01 AM »
Guys,
Has anyone had their engine on the first flight of the day after a week off had it start a bit lean then after about a minute settle into the normal setting? I have had this going on for quite a while, sometime down here in FL it gets to hot and humid in the mornings to fly more than one flight. I did notice the past few weekends that once the engine settled it was fine for the following flights. I wondering if the fuel residue in the fuel line and spraybar just forms a little resistance that causes the leaning effect? Would flushing the line at the end of the day or putting some after run oil in the spraybar help? Just curious as to what others have done?

Best,   DennisT

Offline Lauri Malila

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Re: Lean first minute then settles only on first flight?
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2018, 10:27:45 AM »
Dennis,

If it's a built-up fuselage model, first suspect is improper cooling of engine compartment. Heat  creeps into fuel tank and causes rich setting.
Maybe you can make exit air holes bigger and insulate the tank a bit more with balsa/foam..?

Lauri

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Lean first minute then settles only on first flight?
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2018, 11:22:56 PM »
OJ residue in the spraybar, for sure.  ;) Steve
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In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Lean first minute then settles only on first flight?
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2018, 07:11:23 AM »
My fully coweled MAX 35s acts the same way.  It has taken me a while to learn to resist changing the needle.  I suspect it has to do with cooling since the 1st flight is the only one where the engine is truly cool internally.  I have found that mine needs at least 30min between flights which at my age is about the time I need!

My 46LA on a profile does something similar but I have found that pinching the pressure line making it break lean for a couple of seconds before I launch on the 1st run is all it takes.  The 46 can go back to back but I rarely do that.

Ken
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Lean first minute then settles only on first flight?
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2018, 10:35:24 AM »
Run an ounce or two through it on the ground to pre-heat, and then fly?
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Lean first minute then settles only on first flight?
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2018, 06:37:18 PM »
Guys,
Has anyone had their engine on the first flight of the day after a week off had it start a bit lean then after about a minute settle into the normal setting? I have had this going on for quite a while, sometime down here in FL it gets to hot and humid in the mornings to fly more than one flight. I did notice the past few weekends that once the engine settled it was fine for the following flights. I wondering if the fuel residue in the fuel line and spraybar just forms a little resistance that causes the leaning effect? Would flushing the line at the end of the day or putting some after run oil in the spraybar help? Just curious as to what others have done?

Best,   DennisT

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Lean first minute then settles only on first flight?
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2018, 05:20:02 PM »
Guys,
I know this is a bit old but I have found a solution for my ship. It seems this was a uniflow vent line location problem. I had built the El Diablo originally to us a round 4 oz tank with all the tubes coming through the firewall in a central 1/2" diameter hole. I had been trying to minimize the up-wind/down-wind engine variation by putting the uniflow vent line up in back of the engine in kind of a dead spot. After trying all the normal fixes, checking for leaks, binds in the engine, new plug, switching tank to hard tank with the same tube location. Nothing changed.

Well, by dumb luck I remembered some advice that was given at one of the GSCB stunt forums by in the 70's that I attended. They recommended locating the vent on the inside side of the fuse pointing into the airflow about 3/16" off the side. The El D has an upright engine with an open engine area. I made up a vent tube with a small strip of brass plate to hold a short section of copper tube  that bolts under the inside back engine mount bolt and points into the free airflow.

Out to the field, first flight for the first time it just worked. I could set the engine anyplace I wanted and it just held the setting through the whole flight. I have also done this on my Ringmaster that was acting up at times just moved the line above the fuse to get it in the free airstream, worked great. So if you are having inconsistent runs try this old fix.

Best,    DennisT

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Lean first minute then settles only on first flight?
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2018, 11:52:49 AM »
Out to the field, first flight for the first time it just worked. I could set the engine anyplace I wanted and it just held the setting through the whole flight. I have also done this on my Ringmaster that was acting up at times just moved the line above the fuse to get it in the free airstream, worked great. So if you are having inconsistent runs try this old fix.

  That's not a "fix", so much as adding an additional feedback loop that *sometimes* limits the effect to negligible. Runs faster, gets ram air, slightly more feed pressure, and richens up the mixture. It's very sensitive to that if there are consequential fuel flow restrictions - it's one of the biggest differences we found between the PA and the RO-Jett 61, The PA as we ran it was very sensitive to fuel pressure changes, ram air has a very large effect.

   The root cause is old fuel residue and after-run oil, if used, burning off. It doesn't happen, for instance, when you do multiple sessions a day, and not if you leave the airplane in a warm place overnight, the next morning, this effect doesn't happen. Leave it a week, and it does.

    The after-run oil I used had a distinctive smell to it, and sometimes, it took almost the entire first flight to burn it all off, you could smell it. I think it is as simple as that, it takes a while to clean itself out.

   Note that if you are not super-careful, there's another effect in play. The last time you flew it was typically the afternoon, where its nice and warm. The next time is the morning, where it's not as hot. You should expect to have to open the needle slightly when it's cooler, and then have it go back later. It would be easy to confuse the two effects.

    Brett

Offline Lauri Malila

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Re: Lean first minute then settles only on first flight?
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2018, 12:34:40 PM »
..and of course, it can sometimes be caused by fuel tank. I’m not completely sure what detail in tank is the very reason. One day I’ll find the time to make some systematical tests with different plumbings.
Also, try to recognize what actually happens. In case of setting going richer all the way through flight usually indicates of fuel heating up, and it can usually be compensated wih lateral positioning of fuel tank.
If the engine sudeenly goes rich in beginning of flight (usually after wingover) and then stays like that, there are more possibilities:
-What Brett wrote.
-That’s how long it takes for the whole system to reach a thermic balance.
-Sometimes it happens when tank has to be totally full in beginning of flight. Resonance does weird stuff and it can either hinder or make fuel supply easier. For this reason I like to have at least 1/2oz of air in tank when it’s filled before flight.
-Sometimes, when the whole system does not reach the thermic balance, it can react in a strange way to normal load based temperature variations. Keep adding head shims in a badly cooled engine/tank combo and you see what I mean. L

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Lean first minute then settles only on first flight?
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2018, 02:29:45 PM »
Ok, I agree that other issues can have an impact on the engine run and the after run oil burn off that Brett mentioned is a good point. I use Blue Block after run from Evolution. This oil has worked very well and keeps the engine free turning even after sitting for a few weeks. Before relocating the vent I had tried all the usual suspect - fuel, plug, leaks, tank, tank height, NVA, muffler pressure (my Fox doesn't like pressure). Once I installed the vent in the new location I can just set it and forget it. I have not had any issue over varying outside temperature, humidity, morning, noon etc. So, although other issues may come into play, for my specific plane this change corrected the problem. If you have a run problem and once you go through all the normal items if the vent is in some other position try moving it to the inside free airflow and see if that helps.

Best,    DennisT
 

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Lean first minute then settles only on first flight?
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2018, 05:47:04 PM »
-What Brett wrote.
-That’s how long it takes for the whole system to reach a thermic balance.
-Sometimes it happens when tank has to be totally full in beginning of flight. Resonance does weird stuff and it can either hinder or make fuel supply easier. For this reason I like to have at least 1/2oz of air in tank when it’s filled before flight.
-Sometimes, when the whole system does not reach the thermic balance, it can react in a strange way to normal load based temperature variations. Keep adding head shims in a badly cooled engine/tank combo and you see what I mean. L

    It would happen on all flights, not just the first flight of the day, if it was a resonance or some other issue.

    Brett

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Lean first minute then settles only on first flight?
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2018, 07:14:58 PM »
   One thing that bugs me is when guys make the claim that they "never touch the needle"  or as some one else put it here "resist temptation to touch the needle."  Unless you fly in a controlled atmosphere, you HAVE to adjust the needle when you fly. I doubt that the temperature and density altitude is exactly the same every time you fly, and it sure as hell changes from 8 or 9Am to 1PM. There is all kinds of stuff that collects up behind the needle that affects fuel flow. It may just be castor residue, the fiber that castor oil can produce, or any other kind of debris that manages to get past your fuel filter. I make it a habit of opening the needle a bit on the first start, open it some more when running to get a good, rich run going to let all that junk go through, then lean it out and set RPM with my tach. Then I find that I can be OK for another flight or two as far as needle setting but always check it with the tach, especially on contest days. No magic, just simple mechanics.
  Type at you later,
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Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Lean first minute then settles only on first flight?
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2018, 08:25:41 AM »
   One thing that bugs me is when guys make the claim that they "never touch the needle"  or as some one else put it here "resist temptation to touch the needle."  Unless you fly in a controlled atmosphere, you HAVE to adjust the needle when you fly. I doubt that the temperature and density altitude is exactly the same every time you fly, and it sure as hell changes from 8 or 9Am to 1PM. There is all kinds of stuff that collects up behind the needle that affects fuel flow. It may just be castor residue, the fiber that castor oil can produce, or any other kind of debris that manages to get past your fuel filter. I make it a habit of opening the needle a bit on the first start, open it some more when running to get a good, rich run going to let all that junk go through, then lean it out and set RPM with my tach. Then I find that I can be OK for another flight or two as far as needle setting but always check it with the tach, especially on contest days. No magic, just simple mechanics.
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee
I have had more bad runs using a tach than I ever did using my ear.  Perhaps I have a bad tach or just never learned to use it right.  Thanks for the tip on the caster buildup.  I had never heard that before but it makes complete sense.  I have periodically blown out the spray bar but I never thought to wipe the needle as well. And I do back the engine off periodically but not for that reason.  I do it to find the break point if it sounds funny when it starts.  Maybe I should do it more often.

It may just be luck but it seems like the folks that are always fiddling with their engine settings have far more problems than those that don't.

Ken
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Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Lean first minute then settles only on first flight?
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2018, 01:48:52 PM »
I'll throw in with Dan. One thing I've come to do is set up a hose I can plug onto the Uniflow inlet tube just before starting. That tube goes to the backplate cavity, held firmly in place with a small fitting of sheet aluminum. The reason is to avoid that upwind/rich, downwind/lean nonsense you get on a windy day. Is there a reason not to use it 100% of the time? I don't see why not.   H^^ Steve
"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.


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