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Author Topic: Pressure plumbing  (Read 1697 times)

Offline Mike_Fitzgerald

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Pressure plumbing
« on: December 28, 2017, 12:48:04 PM »
We have an ongoing, sometimes heated, discussion about fuel tank plumbing when using muffler pressure on a uniflow tank...As I understand it,  the uniflow tank was developed as a way to equalize the atmospheric pressure inside the tank at the fuel inlet tube during the engine run no matter the fuel level remaining in the tank...I maintain that if muffler pressure is applied to a uniflow tank, the pressure line should be applied to the the vent tube rather than the uniflow tube. The whole reason for using a uniflow tank in negated when muffler pressure is applied and there is no longer actual "atmospheric pressure" to deal with...The tank will have a positive pressure and the fuel will be "forced" to the venturi...The proof of that is when the pressure is lost (pressure line comes off etc) during the flight,   the engine will go very lean as the the fuel is no longer being force fed.   The question is: Does it matter where the pressure is applied? I maintain it should be applied to the vent tube rather than the uniflow tube which amounts to pumping bubbles into the tank 1/4" away from the fuel pick-up.     What say you?
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Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Pressure plumbing
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2017, 03:13:15 PM »
Mike,
I have just gone through a very extensive search on this subject to deal with a run away situation. What I found was that basically the uniflow vent is the pressure reference point relative to the fuel pickup line in the tank. You can effectively equalize the upright and inverted lap times by moving the end of this tube. With muffler pressure has more than atmospheric pressure available to the tank but it also works the same (just as effective as shimming the tank) without the pressure.

The fuel head seems to be the driving force when it comes to controlling the amount of air let into the tank with the uniflow plumbing. Muffler pressure seems to allow pressure to equalize faster and may reduce upwind/downwind rpm swings a bit but still the fuel head/liquid viscosity holds back the incoming air until the engine pulls out some fuel. Some have even used it with crankcase pressure, works the same just a little higher pressure. The bubbles don't get sucked into the fuel pickup as long as there is as little as 1/4" separations, Brett has explained this several times.

Tank shape also plays a part in this. Short narrow tanks (like the coffin tank used in suction speed ships) set up for  uniflow could have a higher negative pressure in the tank and go rich at the end of the flight once the pressure hold back of the liquid is clear of the vent. But the wider 2" uniflow tanks we use in stunt  tend to go lean since the fuel head is much higher at the start of the flight than the small negitive pressure at the vent. Some (Bob Gieseke for one) have use conventional venting with muffler pressure to one vent and capped the other. This will run like a conventional tank rich to lean but be a little less drastic change since the muffler pressure helps push fuel rather than just having suction.

It seems each engine/tank/plane may run its best with a particular set up. I have used open uniflow on most of my ships but have recently used muffler pressure to the uniflow vent. Upright/inverted lap times were the same with either approach.  I liked the pressure engine run a little better than the open uniflow, seemed steadier. I guess you pays your money and takes your pick.

Best,   DennisT
« Last Edit: December 28, 2017, 04:02:41 PM by Dennis Toth »

Online Steve Helmick

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Re: Pressure plumbing
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2017, 06:56:23 PM »
If you cap the uniflow vent and run muffler pressure (or other source of pressure) to the overflow or fill tube, you don't have uniflow anymore, just a standard tank, pressurized via whatever method. By pressurizing the uniflow vent, you still get uniflow, effectively keeping your fuel flow more constant from start of flight to finish. Remember that you cannot put more exhaust volume into the tank than the volume of the fuel that is being burned off during flight...not a great amount of flow there. Remember that leaks are evil, so K.I.S.S. is good.   

One thing for certain, if you tend to have problems with leaky tanks, leaky fuel hoses, or mufflers coming loose or falling off, DO NOT use muffler pressure. All you'll do is have more problems with lean runs and scorched engines. I'm strictly against using gaskets on the muffler for that reason. A constant leak won't hurt, but a variable leak isn't good.

I seal the header/engine with silicone/copper gasket stuff on piped engines, but I'm wondering if that is critical or not? I suspect it's the same deal...it's got to be constant and unwavering in the event that there is a leak? I tried pipe pressure (because that particular pipe came to me used, with a pressure tap installed), and didn't like it due to siphoning problems. It did what I wanted, which was stop the rich/lean cycling as the plane circled on windy days. I ended up just running a hose from the uniflow inlet into the null pressure area in the backplate cavity. Works fine.  y1 Steve






 
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Pressure plumbing
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2017, 04:50:52 AM »
We have an ongoing, sometimes heated, discussion about fuel tank plumbing when using muffler pressure on a uniflow tank...As I understand it,  the uniflow tank was developed as a way to equalize the atmospheric pressure inside the tank at the fuel inlet tube during the engine run no matter the fuel level remaining in the tank..

       It keeps the fuel feed pressure *at the tank* equal to the pressure at the uniflow vent entrance regardless of the fuel level. It can be atmospheric pressure, muffler pressure, atmospheric pressure+Q, etc.

Quote
I maintain that if muffler pressure is applied to a uniflow tank, the pressure line should be applied to the the vent tube rather than the uniflow tube. The whole reason for using a uniflow tank in negated when muffler pressure is applied and there is no longer actual "atmospheric pressure" to deal with...The tank will have a positive pressure and the fuel will be "forced" to the venturi...The proof of that is when the pressure is lost (pressure line comes off etc) during the flight,   the engine will go very lean as the the fuel is no longer being force fed.   The question is: Does it matter where the pressure is applied? I maintain it should be applied to the vent tube rather than the uniflow tube which amounts to pumping bubbles into the tank 1/4" away from the fuel pick-up.     What say you?

        The "vent" tube on a uniflow tank is the uniflow tube. The third tube is the overflow that you are supposed to cap off to achieve uniflow.

      If you feed pressure into the uniflow tube and cap the overflow, and the pressure is constant, the pressure at the fuel outlet should remain at the pressure you feed it regardless of the fuel level.

      If you feed pressure into the overflow tube and cap the uniflow, the pressure at the fuel outlet will be the feed pressure+the density of the fuel*the depth of the fuel. That means as the fuel runs out, the pressure at the fuel outlet will drop as the fuel runs out.

      There are some complicating factors, but the one you probably care about here is that adding pressure to the overflow has the effect of raising the pressure overall, meaning that the change in pressure from the fuel depth change is reduced. You raise the fuel feed pressure overall, you close the needle to get the setting back (compared to no pressure), and then the change from the fuel depth has less effect, since the overall pressure change is less, percentage-wise.

     It's relatively easy to calculate what the pressure does over a flight with different variations, I am traveling again so I don't have the time to walk through it right now, but it's simple.

      Brett

Offline Massimo Rimoldi

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Re: Pressure plumbing
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2017, 09:28:29 AM »
     
      If you feed pressure into the uniflow tube and cap the overflow, and the pressure is constant, the pressure at the fuel outlet should remain at the pressure you feed it regardless of the fuel level.

      If you feed pressure into the overflow tube and cap the uniflow, the pressure at the fuel outlet will be the feed pressure+the density of the fuel*the depth of the fuel. That means as the fuel runs out, the pressure at the fuel outlet will drop as the fuel runs out.


Goodmorning everyone.
I apologize for the intrusion but sometimes I need to graphically display some concepts that otherwise would escape me.
I think that the attached drawing can help to explain the concept graphically.
Looking at the drawing, it is evident that the uniflouw tank operates independently from the pressure source until the uniflow tube is discovered.
The pipe 2 (which is not present in our tanks) is irrelevant to the operation, but only serves to display the actual level

Happy New Year to all the frequenters of the forum

Massimo

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Pressure plumbing
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2017, 10:41:17 AM »
I think that the attached drawing can help to explain the concept graphically.

Thanks Massimo.  A picture's worth a thousand words -- and often takes longer to draw.
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Pressure plumbing
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2017, 10:43:42 AM »
      There are some complicating factors, but the one you probably care about here is that adding pressure to the overflow has the effect of raising the pressure overall, meaning that the change in pressure from the fuel depth change is reduced. You raise the fuel feed pressure overall, you close the needle to get the setting back (compared to no pressure), and then the change from the fuel depth has less effect, since the overall pressure change is less, percentage-wise.

I'm pretty sure that the muffler pressure goes up with engine speed, and that this would provide some active regulation, in addition to just swamping out the effect of the head change on the tank.

I don't know for sure, though.
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Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Pressure plumbing
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2017, 02:19:45 PM »
We have an ongoing, sometimes heated, discussion about fuel tank plumbing when using muffler pressure on a uniflow tank...As I understand it,  the uniflow tank was developed as a way to equalize the atmospheric pressure inside the tank at the fuel inlet tube during the engine run no matter the fuel level remaining in the tank...I maintain that if muffler pressure is applied to a uniflow tank, the pressure line should be applied to the the vent tube rather than the uniflow tube. The whole reason for using a uniflow tank in negated when muffler pressure is applied and there is no longer actual "atmospheric pressure" to deal with...The tank will have a positive pressure and the fuel will be "forced" to the venturi...The proof of that is when the pressure is lost (pressure line comes off etc) during the flight,   the engine will go very lean as the the fuel is no longer being force fed.   The question is: Does it matter where the pressure is applied? I maintain it should be applied to the vent tube rather than the uniflow tube which amounts to pumping bubbles into the tank 1/4" away from the fuel pick-up.     What say you?

Correctomundo, sir.
Paul Smith

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Pressure plumbing
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2017, 05:02:10 PM »
FWIW, the advise that I've gotten is to try all four combinations & see what works best: uniflow to atmosphere, uniflow to muffler, muffler to ordinary vent, & ordinary vent to atmosphere (although, I'm pretty sure that if the first three aren't getting you joy, the last one won't).

Like Brett said, once you get the needle adjusted for each style, the bubbles coming out of the uniflow are going to be the same speed with & without muffler pressure.  The air comes in at the same rate the fuel goes out; for the same engine run the fuel's going the same, therefor...
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Pressure plumbing
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2017, 05:30:46 PM »
I'm pretty sure that the muffler pressure goes up with engine speed, and that this would provide some active regulation, in addition to just swamping out the effect of the head change on the tank.

I don't know for sure, though.

       Not always, which leads to unconditional instability.

     And there are significant dynamics, almost all in the form of lag which could make it go conditionally unstable. The best part is that part of the dynamics involves the tank ullage volume (more ullage = more low-pass-filter = more phase lag) so it also changes during the flight.   Also, with conventional uniflow tank arrangements (and particularly on profiles) the fuel pressure at the spraybar tends to go down as the centrifugal force goes up, which is unstable, too, if that was the only thing going on.

     Brett

Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Pressure plumbing
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2018, 03:44:12 AM »
Vibration causing fuel foaming is also a factor in engine behavior during a flight. This seems to effect the usefulness of running uniflo. I've had profiles in particular that run erratically on uniflo. When uniflo is bypassed engine run is predictable and usable, gradually leaning throughout the flight. Uniflo is bypassed by capping uniflo vent and either running pressure to overflow vent or leaving overflow vent open.


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