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Author Topic: K&B 61 Control line engine  (Read 8574 times)

Offline Gary Anderson

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K&B 61 Control line engine
« on: July 06, 2007, 12:18:31 PM »
Hi guys, I heard that Mecoa has made about 150 K&B 61 control line engines. I believe he made them a few years ago, he claims he has only sold around thirty of them. Here comes the question: is there something wrong with these engines. He said he probably won't make anymore, they don't sell. I have a veco 61 and a K&B 61 and they run great, of coarse they have been reworked bye Mr. Frank Bowman. Mr. Willis Swindell has made several reports on the K&B 61, don't know if they are the same model but for around a hundred dollar, hard to beat. Ha Ha on e-bay most of them sell around this price, just a dumb question, Gary
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Offline Jim Thomerson

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Re: K&B 61 Control line engine
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2007, 05:56:42 AM »
Some years ago Tom Dixon had a review of the K&B 61 in Stunt News.  He said it was a one-ounce heavier, slightly wider, different mounting holes ST 60.  Same timing, same RPM on same prop.  I have a couple and will get them flying some day.  Impressive on the bench, I think. 

Offline proparc

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Re: K&B 61 Control line engine
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2007, 04:11:39 PM »
If you are not going to advertise your product, then your product won't sell!! Randy could have sold every single one of his CL motors, if he had even the most basic marketing acumen.  Toyota, taken together with their Lexus division, is regarded as making the worlds best automobiles. Yet, they HAVE TO ADVERTISE!!!

It is not that "they won't sell", it is that HE can't sell.

Milton "Proparc" Graham

Offline Steve Fitton

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Re: K&B 61 Control line engine
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2007, 06:59:30 PM »
I'm guessing that Mecoa is trying to sell the engine that was sold through Brodaks a few years back.  That was the K&B 61 ABC with a venturi instead of the carb.  Those motors do work, but the motor that has most impressed me is the "twist" head K&B 61 Willis Swindell tried in his Strega ARC after we tried the regular K&B 61 ABC.  The twist head motor seemed much stronger.  The twist head ran in more of a 2-2-2 style run, reminding me of a pipe run in terms of sound, and it appeared to resist windup very well too.  I don't think Mecoa sells the twist head in a C/L configuration, but for the price, I might get one and just plop my other K&B's venturi, spraybar and Big Art muffler into it.  Thats all you need.

Steve
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Offline Gary Anderson

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Re: K&B 61 Control line engine
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2008, 10:58:57 AM »
Hi guys, I heard that Mecoa has made about 150 K&B 61 control line engines. I believe he made them a few years ago, he claims he has only sold around thirty of them. Here comes the question: is there something wrong with these engines. He said he probably won't make anymore, they don't sell. I have a veco 61 and a K&B 61 and they run great, of coarse they have been reworked bye Mr. Frank Bowman. Mr. Willis Swindell has made several reports on the K&B 61, don't know if they are the same model but for around a hundred dollar, hard to beat. Ha Ha on e-bay most of them sell around this price, just a dumb question, Gary
Hi Gorden, here is one article I found. I hope it will come up, its quite an old article, have a great day Gary
Gary Anderson

Offline Leester

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Re: K&B 61 Control line engine
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2008, 12:21:11 PM »
I'll have to double check my engine but the Twist head will need the case ground down where the NVA goes through. The K&B C/L version is already ground so the NVA fits width wise. I also think Randy has NVA's and venturi's that can be used on the Twist head.
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: K&B 61 Control line engine
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2008, 09:20:14 PM »
If you are not going to advertise your product, then your product won't sell!! Randy could have sold every single one of his CL motors, if he had even the most basic marketing acumen.  Toyota, taken together with their Lexus division, is regarded as making the worlds best automobiles. Yet, they HAVE TO ADVERTISE!!!

It is not that "they won't sell", it is that HE can't sell.



   That may be true, but you also have to consider that the market for 4-2 break 60's in stunt is not large in he first place. With the exception of the Retro (which a lot of people want - for good reason - but not many can get), they just aren't used much in the US anymore. Most use tuned pipe engines, and those who don't tend to 4-strokes. If you want a 4-2 break 60, there are many choices including ST60s, which have much more heritage, and Stalker/Double Stars which had a head start.

      With the PA as the 800lb gorilla, RO-Jett's the logical alternative, and many other choices, most of which are far more well-known and have more history, it's going to be a tough sell. It's really the same story as the new Fox.
   
          Brett

Offline Steve Fitton

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Re: K&B 61 Control line engine
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2008, 06:53:52 AM »
I might point out as well that Randy sells every engine he makes, and then some.  If you call and order an engine, you might wait a bit, especially after the Nats, etc, when he is inundated with orders.  A mass PA advertising campaign isn't needed, and besides, pretty much every one who can *use one* already knows about them.

I think most people who embark on a 60 size ship program already have their powertrain selected, as well as their run philosophy (4-2-4, pipe, etc).  The wild cards now have been the score and Strega ARF planes, which has boosted many new faces (or at least a few(!)) into bigger planes.  These people like the cheaper alternatives of the K&B, etc.  (And the few inverterate tinkerers like Willis).

Personally, I'd probably consider a cheap motor for a big ARF, unless I invested the time to really go through the ARC version and make sure its right.  I wouldn't feel good about commiting a $500 powertrain to a model I wasn't really sure about, both in terms of flying qualities and control/structural integrity.  Further, I've always felt ARF to be useful in flying in conditions that might be suicidal to one's good plane.  The local contest that has 20+ winds on Sunday might not be the best place to risk the plane you intend to fly at the Nats, etc.  A Score with the 85 buck Tigre 51 might just fit the bill in those cases.
Steve

Online Brett Buck

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Re: K&B 61 Control line engine
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2008, 09:20:14 AM »
I might point out as well that Randy sells every engine he makes, and then some.  If you call and order an engine, you might wait a bit, especially after the Nats, etc, when he is inundated with orders.  A mass PA advertising campaign isn't needed, and besides, pretty much every one who can *use one* already knows about them.

I think most people who embark on a 60 size ship program already have their powertrain selected, as well as their run philosophy (4-2-4, pipe, etc).  The wild cards now have been the score and Strega ARF planes, which has boosted many new faces (or at least a few(!)) into bigger planes.  These people like the cheaper alternatives of the K&B, etc.  (And the few inverterate tinkerers like Willis).

Personally, I'd probably consider a cheap motor for a big ARF, unless I invested the time to really go through the ARC version and make sure its right.  I wouldn't feel good about commiting a $500 powertrain to a model I wasn't really sure about, both in terms of flying qualities and control/structural integrity.  Further, I've always felt ARF to be useful in flying in conditions that might be suicidal to one's good plane.  The local contest that has 20+ winds on Sunday might not be the best place to risk the plane you intend to fly at the Nats, etc.  A Score with the 85 buck Tigre 51 might just fit the bill in those cases.


         All that is probably true, and there is probably a market for *some* inexpensive 4-2 break motors in this size range.  But look at the numbers. You have, maybe, 100 guys in this situation. Right off the bat, 150 motors are too many and even if every one of them bought a K&B, there's still 50 of them sitting around. But of course, not everyone wants a K&B. In this range, the mot desirable motor is probably an ST60, with extensive history and a cult following in certain quarters. There are a lot of them still around and pretty easy to find. If you don't like that, you might be tempted to use another, more-well-known motor like the Double Star 60. It won the 96 NATs, that's gotta be worth something, and they run very nicely in chug-mode and are reasonably good. If you don't like either of those, most today would get a 4-stroke. Even you point out another, very inexpensive and pretty decent alternative - the ST51. Then there's Fox - which is a direct competitor and has the apparently endless legions of adherents. Or the K&B - with absolutely no knowledge of how it runs or any known good setups. If someone just wants to stick it in an ARF and not have a lot of problems, they would go with some known quantity. A few people will try it and see, but not 150 people.

    It could be the greatest of all 4-2 break motors, but unless someone who knows what they are doing takes a charter to go develop it, we will likely never know. There are too many alternatives.

      Brett

Offline Andrew Hathaway

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Re: K&B 61 Control line engine
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2008, 10:13:34 AM »
I've got several engines for 60 size planes, in spite of having little desire to fly or deal with a plane that big.  I don't like trying to shoe horn them in the car, I don't like burning so much fuel, I don't like cleaning 700sq inches of castor covered dope, etc.  But if I did build a 60 size plane, and I wanted a 4-2-4 old school-ish engine, I would never in a million years consider the K&B. 

First and foremost the Supertigre G-51 from Tower is $80, use the $20 off a $50 order coupon that comes around every few months and it's $60.  This is an engine with pedigree, and a proven track record, and it still isn't utilized to it's potential because it's not a pipe engine, or a four stroke.  I've flown an Italian G-51 and the Chinese G-51 and I can't see any difference other then the $100+ price tag compared to $80.  It's probably the best deal going in CL stunt and it doesn't get half the press of the LA-46.  Nothing against the OS but the ST is a better buy.  It was a steal at $100+ and it's the C/L bargain of the century at $80.  So even if you don't look at any other factor, look at the G-51 and it's failure to really catch on. 

Next, nothing against MECOA but they don't seem to have a grasp of what we want.  Look at all the engines they own rights to on thier website.  Then look at what they've made and have available.  Veco 19's and K&B .61's.  The Veco 19's show up on ebay NON-STOP.  If someone wants one, it's easier to buy on ebay then to get one from MECOA, and it's probably cheaper too.  They can't even take the time to snap a digital photo of the .61 and spend 30 seconds to put it on the website.  It's said "photo coming soon" for at least a year now.  And even if they could convince people to buy them, is there any assurance that a year from now you could get parts if you had to repair crash damage or wear?  Before you answer that, be sure to browse the parts listings for the other engines they've offered and notice the status.  There also is a greater chance of finding spare parts for a more popular engine after it's been out of production.  In this case however, I wouldnt be surprised if MECOA has surplus complete engines and parts for a long time to come.  If they really want to sell them they should try a little more marketing.


Offline Phil Bare

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Re: K&B 61 Control line engine
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2008, 02:44:57 PM »
Gary, The K&B .61 is a great engine at a resonable price and will do a fine job in stunt use, might have to play with CR and venturi size to get just the run that you want..
For a hunnert bucks, it would be darn hard to beat and if I didn,t already own eight .60 sized engines, I would definatly order one. there are many fine engines that will more then do the job of stunt plane flying....:-) Regards, Phil H^^
« Last Edit: February 05, 2008, 02:56:05 PM by RandySmith »

Offline Gary Anderson

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Re: K&B 61 Control line engine
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2008, 04:29:02 PM »
Thank you guys, I have K&B 61, Merco 61, Super Tigre 60, Enya 60. Love them all, if I was a great flier and builder and flew well, I probably would want one of the big boys. I also use veco engines, I believe K&B has taken their place. The K&B 61 and the Veco 61 loves to run around 9000 rpm's with a 13/6 prop, and seems to be running a nice 4-2-4 cycle run. One problem is that they love fuel, so I need six and a half ounces of fuel to do the pattern. My super tigre 60 using around six ounces. The enya 60 uses around five and a half ounces and has a stronger pull, using the same set up. I love my Merco's, and wouldn't trade them for anything but they only run around 8200 rpm's and don't seem to be as strong an engine as the others. If you hook your plane up to a weigh scale and see how much pull you can get out of each engine with the same set up, you would find some interesting thing about the different  engines. Another thing of interest, you have to be sure your not comparing worn engines to fresh engines. Also have to make sure each engine is broken in. I watched a strega, today, using a K&B 61 going through the pattern and can't see how it could fly any better. Lap time was 4.9 seconds, engine turning 9000 rpm's with a apc 13/6. He would turn the nose up the K&B when into a two cycle and settled back down on level flight.  Anyway its a nice looking plane in the air and turns really nice. Have a great day and I guess what works for one person doesn't always work for the others? Gary
« Last Edit: February 06, 2008, 11:23:30 AM by Gary Anderson »
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Offline Phil Bare

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Re: K&B 61 Control line engine
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2008, 05:25:04 PM »
Hey Andy, I,v had excellent results in my more then a few dealings with MECOA, parts for many different engines have been no problem.....and I will continue to go to them.
Regards, Phil

Offline Bill Little

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Re: K&B 61 Control line engine
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2008, 04:55:20 PM »
I have seen several Veco/K&B .61s run in stunt panes and run well.  Big JIm was working on them, IIRC, before he settled on the ST 60.

Andrew mentioned th ST 51.  When they hit the market in 1991 or 1992, Windy did a lot of testing.  Replacing Big Jim 60s with the G51s, and even using pipes with them.  It didn't really work out THAT well as a pipe engine, in comparison to the way pipe engines were running at the time.  He also mentioned several times that it put out usable power about equaling the ST 60.  They tend to run a slightly higher rpm and a little lower pitch.

Given the choice between a 46LA and a ST G51, there is no choice in my eyes.     I had a 64 oz. SV-11 with a T&L 51.  A lot of people saw that plane and it never lacked for *power*.  I have YET to see a OS 46LA which would have flown that plane with that authority.  The LA is fine for what it is.  I have seen a plane or two lost (by really good pilots) from a lack of power from the LA. Not an opinion, just fact.
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Offline Gary Anderson

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Re: K&B 61 Control line engine
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2008, 06:27:45 PM »
I have seen several Veco/K&B .61s run in stunt panes and run well.  Big JIm was working on them, IIRC, before he settled on the ST 60.

Andrew mentioned th ST 51.  When they hit the market in 1991 or 1992, Windy did a lot of testing.  Replacing Big Jim 60s with the G51s, and even using pipes with them.  It didn't really work out THAT well as a pipe engine, in comparison to the way pipe engines were running at the time.  He also mentioned several times that it put out usable power about equaling the ST 60.  They tend to run a slightly higher rpm and a little lower pitch.

Given the choice between a 46LA and a ST G51, there is no choice in my eyes.     I had a 64 oz. SV-11 with a T&L 51.  A lot of people saw that plane and it never lacked for *power*.  I have YET to see a OS 46LA which would have flown that plane with that authority.  The LA is fine for what it is.  I have seen a plane or two lost (by really good pilots) from a lack of power from the LA. Not an opinion, just fact.

Hi Bill, I also have one of the Chinese super tigre 51's, my brother also purchased the tigre 51. Neither engine was very good, good design, just needed to be reworked bye Frank. I spoke with Frank, I remember he told me that the tigre 51 wasn't a bad engine, just needed to stop air leaks and to be resurfaced. He was correct, when I received mine back from Frank the engine is really strong and runs great but I still like the older 60 engines better. (I guess its just the idea that I'm using a big old 60 size engine) The 51 doesn't use as much fuel and is a very strong engine, for its size. Thank you for your comments, Gary
Gary Anderson

Offline Andrew Hathaway

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Re: K&B 61 Control line engine
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2008, 06:39:53 PM »
The thing about the Tigre 51 is that I've yet to have one run away like an OS.  To be completely fair I haven't tried the LA 46.  Chalk it up to having no interest in an engine that was made over to look modern and painted blue to try and catch my interest.  The LA is just the FP with corners cut to make it cheaper to produce.  None of the real issues of the FP were addressed to make it a better stunt engine.  I'm not going to encourage OS to make changes like that by buying their products.  The FP's and the FSR engines were better products then the LA's.  Meanwhile the ST has cut costs while remaining a high quality product.  It'll 4-2-4, and it'll lug around in a solid fast 4.  It does it all and runs consistent from start to finish.  I'd been running 35/40 FP for several years when I got ahold of the G51 and it flat blew my mind.  No comparison what so ever.

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Re: K&B 61 Control line engine
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2008, 09:14:37 AM »
Andrew,
The LA46 is no FP, that's for sure, but not in the way you mean. It is the best deal out-of-the box stunt run.

I have no issues with the ST51 (I have 2), and with the super low prices from Tower, it is a great deal too.

By the way, does ANYONE know what version the  Mecoa K&B61 CL listed on their site really is  ??? ? I missed that info if it was there (maybe didn't read carefully enough).

Offline Gary Anderson

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Re: K&B 61 Control line engine
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2008, 10:34:44 AM »
Andrew,
The LA46 is no FP, that's for sure, but not in the way you mean. It is the best deal out-of-the box stunt run.

I have no issues with the ST51 (I have 2), and with the super low prices from Tower, it is a great deal too.

By the way, does ANYONE know what version the  Mecoa K&B61 CL listed on their site really is  ??? ? I missed that info if it was there (maybe didn't read carefully enough).

Hi Alan, I believe the model mecoa is using for the C/L is 6550. I have two of them, my son has one, brothers each have one each, for a total of five and they all run great. They all want to run around 9000 rpm's and sound great. There is several of these engine being used where I fly and they all sound great. The two I have are older engines that has being rebuild bye Frank. If someone wants to try a 60 size engine I believe this is a very good bargain. If you're going to fly against the big boys you better spend the million dollars and buy one of the hot dog engines. Have a great day and thanks for your comments, Gary
Gary Anderson

Offline Leester

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Re: K&B 61 Control line engine
« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2008, 11:16:15 AM »
The engine is a 6151 according to mine.
Leester
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Offline Gary Anderson

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Re: K&B 61 Control line engine
« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2008, 08:48:22 PM »
The engine is a 6151 according to mine.

Hi Leester, you're correct on the side of my brother's K&B box it is marked as being (K&B C/L 61 99-6151). I have an older K&B which was a R/C engine changed over to control line engine. Sorry about that was just looking at the wrong box, Gary
Gary Anderson

Offline David Ruff

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Re: K&B 61 Control line engine
« Reply #20 on: March 11, 2018, 06:46:41 AM »
119 bucks new. I just ordered one from mecoa.4
Retired Army

Offline Target

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Re: K&B 61 Control line engine
« Reply #21 on: March 11, 2018, 11:58:47 AM »
Well, since you resurrected this old thread, please report your findings. Thanks in advance to you and goodluck.
R,
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Offline Norm Faith Jr.

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Re: K&B 61 Control line engine
« Reply #22 on: April 03, 2018, 09:56:37 PM »
I've been working with my "MECOA K&B .61" for some time now. Along with my engine knowledge and the extensive knowledge of a fellow flyer...we have come to the conclusion that "my" .61 has a problem that can't be corrected. The engine is not lacking for power. It has more than enough to fly my 64 oz. stunt ship. In level flight the engine runs great...kick the nose up or down and the engine "comes on" like a turbo kicked in. Needless to say...the outside maneuvers are quite hard to deal with. We have shimmed the head, tried different props, "venturies," fuel, diffusers, etc. Bottom line? The K&B .61 is a RC engine with a control line venturi. It is not timed right for a stunt engine. The same time I bought the K&B .61, I also bought the K&B "Twister" .61 C/L , with the screwed on cylinder/head. I bench ran them both when I got them, and decided that the Clarence Lee version ran smoother. The Twister engine had more vibration. I've now decided to take the standard .61 out and install the Twister .61 engine. Both engines are identical as far as case dimensions and mount holes. From what little that has been reported on the K&B Twister...it has been said to be a little more powerful than the standard .61 and is an ABC Schnuerle ported engine. Hope to find out soon if it works out, sure would hate to rework the ship's nose and engine bearers to accommodate a different engine design. (PA .61/.65)
Norm
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Offline GERALD WIMMER

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Re: K&B 61 Control line engine
« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2018, 03:30:49 AM »
Hello Norm. What size props and venturis did you try on your K&B 61? My brother used a number of K&B 61's and found them very similar to the ST 60  I was using just a bit more power. He had a standard ST 60 venturi adapted to it along with a stack muffler and 13x6 prop and ran a slow 4/2 break like my ST 60. Piston ring fit seemed to vary a bit between motors. Regards Gerald  #^

Offline Norm Faith Jr.

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Re: K&B 61 Control line engine
« Reply #24 on: April 05, 2018, 12:17:49 PM »
We have used a .285 to a .342 venturi, ST NVA, 12.5"X5.5" TT prop, clipped to 12", 12X5, 12X4, Pro-Zinger, 12X5 Rev-UP, 5-22 and 10-22 fuel. No ground clearance for a 13" prop. I would have to go to a three blade (equivalent to say a 13X5 or 6) to get ground clearance. 
Norm
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Offline GERALD WIMMER

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Re: K&B 61 Control line engine
« Reply #25 on: April 07, 2018, 06:16:51 AM »
Hello Norm
The standard ST venturi size we used was .265 along with the fat 4mm ST spray bar so there was very good suction for the slow turning 13x6 prop. I realize most people run there modern motors much faster now with low pitch props but the K&B 61 is a good slugger like the St 60 and Enya 60 (7033) or Merco 61 that all work well in the slow 4/2 mode.
Regards Gerald


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