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Author Topic: Is it me or the Enya?  (Read 4698 times)

Offline Terry Caron

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Is it me or the Enya?
« on: March 09, 2014, 03:45:01 PM »
Hi all -
I have what appears to be an unrun Enya .19V, thinking to put it on a Flite Streak ARF, as the mount wood is narrow and I decided not to trim it out wide enough for a Fox .35.
I pulled the head, checking to see if there was any carbon, and the baffle is next to the exhaust port.
I'd found the same thing in a used McCoy and asked about it and was assured the baffle should be close to the bypass port.
I just want to make sure that the Enya piston/head is 180 out before I tear it down.
Or are Enyas built this way?

Terry
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Offline Steve Thomas

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Re: Is it me or the Enya?
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2014, 04:44:52 PM »
No, it's been messed with by someone. The baffle should definitely be closer to the transfer port.

Offline Terry Caron

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Re: Is it me or the Enya?
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2014, 05:29:39 PM »
Well, alrighty then!
I'll switch it around.

Thanks!  H^^

Terry
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Offline Terry Caron

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Re: Is it me or the Enya?
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2014, 06:13:53 PM »
Another thing I noticed before was that the only marks on the engine were pliers marks on the prop driver - seemed strange.
Now I know why - whoever took it apart also took the piston off the rod, and at least this Enya rod has front/rear configuration - when he put it back together, he unwittingly rotated the rod then installed the piston/head the correct way - Rats! it won't turn past bottom, so try pliers - nope, still won't turn, may break something.....so he rotated piston/head 180 and voila! Now it turns!  <=
So it was him.  :)
Probably why I got such a good deal.

But all's well - everything's back as Enyasan intended.

Tomorrow we'll see how it runs.  ;D

Terry
« Last Edit: March 09, 2014, 06:35:00 PM by Terry Caron »
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Offline Terry Caron

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Re: Is it me or the Enya?
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2014, 11:45:21 AM »
So I cranked it and let it run a few minutes:
72/28 methanol/castor
8x4 Zinger prop, 11.8K (varying)
60 deg/700' ASL

It doesn't like a wet prime.
It dropped ~1K w/igniter removed, picked up when back on - needs a hotter glow plug, right?
After a couple minutes, I tried to pinch it lean and it almost died instead; it leaned w/the needle, richened it back, pinched and it died.
Does that mean anything?

Terry


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Online Tim Wescott

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Re: Is it me or the Enya?
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2014, 12:21:50 PM »
It doesn't like a wet prime.
It dropped ~1K w/igniter removed, picked up when back on - needs a hotter glow plug, right?
After a couple minutes, I tried to pinch it lean and it almost died instead; it leaned w/the needle, richened it back, pinched and it died.
Does that mean anything?

I'm pretty sure that it means that you need to richen it up -- but I'd make sure I had a fresh glow plug in it before drawing conclusions about other symptoms.
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Offline Jim Thomerson

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Re: Is it me or the Enya?
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2014, 12:40:24 PM »
I bought an Enya 19 cheap at a swap meet.  I thought the piston would be in backwards and it was.  I turned it around right, and found out that there is only one way the rod will work on the crank.  Fixed it, ran it, and sold it at a profit. 

Offline Terry Caron

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Re: Is it me or the Enya?
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2014, 01:13:44 PM »
Good for you, Jim!  ;)

I richened it up and now it pinches lean, so guess you were right Tim.
It's running ~9.4K, sounds basically blubbery, with a mostly-but-intermittent crackle.
I'm on my own and don't know about engine sounds yet.
Is that what's called 4-stroking w/a wet 2-stroke?
Is that what I want for break-in?
I haven't tried but I suspect with this prop it'd turn well over 13K leaned out.

Terry
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Re: Is it me or the Enya?
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2014, 02:25:23 PM »
Terry, 4-stroking has a very distinct sound -- basically, the engine misfires every other rotation, so when it goes into a four stroke it sounds like it suddenly dropped RPM by a factor of two.

A "wet 2-stroke" just means that it's running rich, but isn't 4-stroking yet.  (Some engines don't four-stroke.  I know nothing of your Enya, so I can't say it does or does not).

For stunt or sport CL you don't want it to be running lean -- you want it to be well on the rich side.
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Offline Terry Caron

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Re: Is it me or the Enya?
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2014, 02:42:14 PM »
I'm not sure if it's 4-stroking then, maybe just a very wet 2-stroke.
If I richen it much it just dies.
Maybe Enyas won't 4-stroke - this is my first experience with one.

I reread the instructions and a 9x4 is recommended for break-in, so I've changed to that.
Confusing - for break-in,  Randy says smaller/flatter (the 8x4 I had on it) for high revs/low load, another knowledgeable source said a larger prop trimmed down for more load/higher temps, and Enya says 9x4.
Guess it's safest to stick w/mfrs. recommendation.

Terry
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Re: Is it me or the Enya?
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2014, 03:06:21 PM »
I'd go with what Randy says here.  You don't want to overheat the engine.  It also sounds like the engine is four cycling all the time so far.  You've not had it running fast enough to hit the two yet.  With it running very slowly turn the needle closed until the engine noticeably jumps into a new resonance.  You then know the spot.  Back down now from that until I a solid four and let it run a while.  Accumulate at least 45 minutes on it.  For the last run tweak the needle up to a 'just two'.  Run a little rich on early flights and never launch in a two cycle scream.

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Offline Martin Quartim

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Re: Is it me or the Enya?
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2014, 03:36:35 PM »
I also would use an 8x4 to break in an Enya 19 engine. As far as I know most, if not all, engines will run 4 stroke when rich enough.

This engine needs short runs in the beginning. I run 10 times of 1 minute then 8 of 2min, 6 of 3 min and then I jump to  5 runs of 7minutes. Always letting the engine fully cool before starting. When doing the 7 minutes run I pinch the fuel line with care so it will run a bit rich at peak rpm for about 8 seconds and then I release, wait for 20 seconds and repeat the pinching process until the end of the run. I know the engine is broken in when it will keep at peak rpm without sagging, when I release the fuel line the rpm will go back fast and to the exact rpm as before pinching the line, there is no more rpm gain from one set to the other.

Sometimes the engine comes from factory with tight piston/liner fit and it may require a few more runs of 7 minutes as described.

If you let the engine run rich all the time it will never break in and it can seize when you try to fly.

In the beginning it is normal for the rpm to drop when you remove the Glow Plug Battery, internal friction is much higher in this stage. Some tight engines will only run with the Ni Starter in the beginning.

Once you have this engine broken in you can go fly with a 9x4 or 9x5 prop.

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Offline Terry Caron

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Re: Is it me or the Enya?
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2014, 03:53:59 PM »
All right, guys -
I ran it w/the 9x4 (but've now changed back to the 8x4, which, BTW, is a TF PP, not a Zinger) and leaned it to ~11.4K for a few secs, so now I know what it's 2-cycle sounds like.
Letting it cool now, and it did get noticeably hotter than after a few minutes running previously.
About 15 mins total so far.
I'll try to get in more runs this evening, so may have more questions.  :)

Terry

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Offline Terry Caron

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Re: Is it me or the Enya?
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2014, 06:06:12 PM »
I've run another tankful thru it with the 8x4 prop.
It ran lean when first started (~13.6K) so I richened it to ~11.2K.
And it dropped only ~400 rpm when I removed the igniter.
It takes a quite heavy pinch to lean it out - is 11Kish still too rich maybe?
Also, I need to mix more fuel - I finished up the 0/72/28 I had and Enya says 20% castor, Randy recommends 50/50 oil (I have Klotz) - go with Randy?
Lastly, what's a normal rpm variation for a broken-in engine?

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Re: Is it me or the Enya?
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2014, 09:33:26 PM »
I've run another tankful thru it with the 8x4 prop.
It ran lean when first started (~13.6K) so I richened it to ~11.2K.
And it dropped only ~400 rpm when I removed the igniter.
It takes a quite heavy pinch to lean it out - is 11Kish still too rich maybe?
Also, I need to mix more fuel - I finished up the 0/72/28 I had and Enya says 20% castor, Randy recommends 50/50 oil (I have Klotz) - go with Randy?
Lastly, what's a normal rpm variation for a broken-in engine?

Terry
Terry I can't say and wouldn't worry about the rpm variation.  In fact for right now I'd put the tach away and not worry about it.  When you start flying the engine learn to set it by ear in the beginning.  Where the tach comes in to play is when you find an engine flight setting you like,  measure it then you can simply repeat it by checking and tweaking the needle with the tach.

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Offline RandySmith

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Re: Is it me or the Enya?
« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2014, 01:17:26 AM »
I've run another tankful thru it with the 8x4 prop.
It ran lean when first started (~13.6K) so I richened it to ~11.2K.
And it dropped only ~400 rpm when I removed the igniter.
It takes a quite heavy pinch to lean it out - is 11Kish still too rich maybe?
Also, I need to mix more fuel - I finished up the 0/72/28 I had and Enya says 20% castor, Randy recommends 50/50 oil (I have Klotz) - go with Randy?
Lastly, what's a normal rpm variation for a broken-in engine?

Terry

HI Terry

Yes you need to use part synth. you can also run more oil than 20%, I would use 24% oil  half and half, or if you want you can use 1/4 synth oil, The 20% is a little lite on oil, especially for breakin, remember  to cycle the motor and run it in a 2 cycle , then back to a 4 cycle, at the point your at now, I would run it in a fast 2 cycle for about 10 seconds, then back richer for about 30 sec, then back into a 2.. repeat this and the engine now should come in fast. If it still wants to hang on to a 2 cycle, and come back slowly to a 4, it need more breakin time

Regards
Randy

Offline Terry Caron

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Re: Is it me or the Enya?
« Reply #16 on: March 11, 2014, 08:16:40 AM »
If it still wants to hang on to a 2 cycle, and come back slowly to a 4, it need more breakin time

Regards
Randy

Thanks Randy and Dave.
A few more questions and I think I'll be good to go:
1) When fully broken in, should it cycle between 2 & 4 stroke MOL instantaneously?
2) The reason I asked about rpm variations is that I've read a proper break-in also results in a steady run, but how steady is steady?
3) I also have a Fox .35 to break in - almost everyone says 28% castor for them, but will a synth mix be better for it too?

Apologies for asking so many questions,  but I'm a "retread newbie" - getting back into c/l after 50ish years, and I didn't really know anything back then.  ;D

Terry
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Offline Jim Thomerson

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Re: Is it me or the Enya?
« Reply #17 on: March 11, 2014, 08:30:09 AM »
My Foxs are happy on Sig Champion 10% nitro, 20% oil, half synthetic, half castor. They run fine on all castor, and more %oil, as everyone else will tell you.  I switched from all castor to the mix and did not notice any loss of compression from the detergent effect of the synthetic. 

Offline Terry Caron

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Re: Is it me or the Enya?
« Reply #18 on: March 11, 2014, 08:45:11 AM »
Thanks Jim - I like the benefits of synth, but wasn't sure if it may affect longevity, since so many have said all castor for Fox .35s.
But I'm pretty curmudgeonly myself and can sure understand folks hanging onto "that's how we've always done it".  :)

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Offline RandySmith

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Re: Is it me or the Enya?
« Reply #19 on: March 11, 2014, 09:39:46 AM »
Thanks Jim - I like the benefits of synth, but wasn't sure if it may affect longevity, since so many have said all castor for Fox .35s.
But I'm pretty curmudgeonly myself and can sure understand folks hanging onto "that's how we've always done it".  :)

Terry


The FOX will actually last longer with a Castor synth blend, I use 25% total oil in mine, I still have 2 from the 1970s, one has near 600 flights on it and it is not gummed up or worn out, just do not run a FOX with low oil content, all synth with low oil, all castor with low oil, or try to run them sceaming lean.

Randy

Offline Terry Caron

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Re: Is it me or the Enya?
« Reply #20 on: March 11, 2014, 09:54:50 AM »
Good deal - it's not a real prob but, running all castor in both the Fox and Enya, I need to "lube" the crankshafts with fresh fuel before they'll flip over easily, even after setting just 10 mins or so at 65+ deg.
Maybe synth will help that too.

So if someone can respond to my other 2 questions, I think I can stop harassing you guys for a while.  ;D

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Re: Is it me or the Enya?
« Reply #21 on: March 11, 2014, 11:31:54 AM »
Terry I'll try the other two.  For the first question lets understand when a 'break ' is expected to happen.  In the classic sense when the nose of the airplane is raised the engine leans and breaks from a four cycle into a two which adds power for the climbing portion of manuevers then backs down for the diving portion and level flight.  The exact timing or speed this happens based on your needle settlng, load on the engine, prop, fuel etc. so that one can't simply quantify a 'break speed'.  None of this is to be known or changed until you are actually flying the airplane and to be honest,  isn't something you should invest much time worrying about at this point.  The engine will do its thing as you will be doing yours.  You can 't and shouldn't try to change its natural functions at this point.  Your emphasis needs to be on learning to fly and not so much the minute details of the engine function.  It 'll do its part.  
The other question... When an engine is still too new and tight it may run a little hotter due to friction.  This will cause gaining rpm and running away.  Sometimes the added prop speed then cools the engine some and it slows down.  The engine should be ready when it will hold a fairly steady rpm through a full tank on the stand without these very obvious changes.  Note this might be confused with the engine gaining a little rpm as the tank empties and gravity/ pressure on the fuel diminishes.  The main concern is that you don't want the engine to heat up and go screaming lean out at the end of the lines where you can't do much about it ,  watching and hearing your engine burn up while waiting for it to run out of fuel.  If the engine will hold a richer setting then it ready to start flying.  I'm one who thinks that an engine is never completely broken in until it gets a little air time, loading and unloading with temperature variations.  The test stand is nessessary but is a little too controlled environment for a total run I .
By the way... Welcome aboard... Glad you are here.
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Offline Terry Caron

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Re: Is it me or the Enya?
« Reply #22 on: March 11, 2014, 12:41:36 PM »
Gotcha, Dave -
I'm just one of the technically-minded who likes thing quantified and cubbyholed, but I understand  there's only so much of that possible here.
I've been contacted by some local fliers, so hope soon to have some experience to lessen my brain fever.  #^

Thanks to all.

regards,

Terry
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Re: Is it me or the Enya?
« Reply #23 on: March 11, 2014, 01:52:28 PM »
You will fit right in with this bunch perfectly.  Stay in touch.

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Re: Is it me or the Enya?
« Reply #24 on: March 11, 2014, 02:05:35 PM »
Terry, in going over this thread I'm getting the impression that you're stuck on the 2-4 break.

The 2-4 break is a great thing on some engines.  But there are a great many engines that don't do their best on a 2-4 break.  Basically, engines that 'want' to run at a high speed do their best in a wet two-stroke; you can coerce them into running a 2-4 break, but you'll be missing out on a great deal of power from the engine.

Most of the modern Schnuerle-ported engines that we inherited from RC sport use prefer this wet two stroke.  Certainly that's how you want to run an OS LA-whatever.  I don't have personal experience, but many of the older baffle-piston engines like it, too.

So if you try to run that thing in a deep 4-stroke, pulling to a 2-stroke on the up-lines, and you find that it's wimpy as hell, try it again with a smaller prop and a higher (2-stroke) launch RPM and see if you're not happier.
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Offline Terry Caron

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Re: Is it me or the Enya?
« Reply #25 on: March 11, 2014, 02:32:49 PM »
As a tad, my brother and I flew 1/2A - just cranked up to a scream and let go (sound familiar to anyone?  ;D).
We ruined engines, no doubt, but we could afford a couple $2 OKs a summer.
So it's not that I'm stuck on the break, I basically understand it's use in maneuvers, I'm just new to breaking in as much as anything.

And reading that iron/steel cross-scavenged engines like the Enya needs heat/cool cycles, I didn't even know how to "hear" 4-stroking, or if I need to cycle from that to a heating 2-stroke, or from a wet 2-stroke (which I'm still not sure about) to a lean 2-stroke - that one I knew.  ;D

I'm very grateful for all that you guys have shared with me and I'll keep in mind your advice.
In fact, I plan this on a Flite Streak ARF, so I may need it's 2-stroke power.
I hafta (re)learn how to go around in circles without crashing me or the plane before 4-2 breaks become any concern.  :)

Terry
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Offline Terry Caron

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Re: Is it me or the Enya?
« Reply #26 on: March 11, 2014, 03:33:25 PM »
Sorry - one more question:
On starting, the engine throws fuel out the exhaust for a few seconds as it winds up.
Is there any way that's normal or am I just starting too rich?
It does come up to ~12.4K and will lean to ~13.5K.

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Re: Is it me or the Enya?
« Reply #27 on: March 11, 2014, 06:08:14 PM »
Suggestion: Put it on the airplane with a 9x4 prop, APCs  usually work well. Use a fuel with a high oil content, 25% total oil, around 70% of castor until it is well broken in. Wait until those local guys show up and give it a try. They should be able to tell right away if all is well. IMHO 12.4-13.5 is too high of RPM for this engine unless you are going racing, even for break-in. Look for a stable run in the 10,400 -11,200 range. The older Enyas aren't known for being great 4x2x4 engines, in fact no .19 size engine is particulary effective when running that way so go with a rich 2 stroke run. What does that sound like?, not screaming but steady and strong. You will know it when you get there. Oh, and don't worry about fuel coming out of the exhaust at start up. If it's starting, you are not too rich (or it wouldn't start!). If RPM decreases significantly when the battery is removed...change the plug. ;D 8)
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Re: Is it me or the Enya?
« Reply #28 on: March 11, 2014, 06:18:04 PM »
Suggestion: Put it on the airplane with a 9x4 prop, APCs  usually work well. Use a fuel with a high oil content, 25% total oil, around 70% of castor until it is well broken in. Wait until those local guys show up and give it a try. They should be able to tell right away if all is well. IMHO 12.4-13.5 is too high of RPM for this engine unless you are going racing, even for break-in. Look for a stable run in the 10,400 -11,200 range. The older Enyas aren't known for being great 4x2x4 engines, in fact no .19 size engine is particulary effective when running that way so go with a rich 2 stroke run. What does that sound like?, not screaming but steady and strong. You will know it when you get there. Oh, and don't worry about fuel coming out of the exhaust at start up. If it's starting, you are not too rich (or it wouldn't start!). If RPM decreases significantly when the battery is removed...change the plug. ;D 8)

     Another way to set it (for flight) is to peak it out lean - leaner and leaner and faster and faster, until you go too far and it stops speeding up, or starts to slow down. Then richen it up until it is distinctly slower. The goal is more-or-less to set it clearly richer than the peak, and then at some point in the flight, have it max out. Then see if it is too fast (in terms of airspeed) and adjust accordingly.

    Brett

Offline Terry Caron

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Re: Is it me or the Enya?
« Reply #29 on: March 11, 2014, 06:27:26 PM »
Thanks Pete & Brett.
I can sure do lower rpm, I have that prop & fuel and new plugs are on the way.
Still need to refinish & assemble the plane.
Luckily, my bud is soon moving to just a few mins away and he says there's a private flying site quite close.  #^

Terry
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