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Author Topic: How to tell if an engine is worn out?  (Read 999 times)

Offline Dennis Toth

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How to tell if an engine is worn out?
« on: July 19, 2019, 03:41:34 PM »
How do you tell when an engine is worn out? I mean beside the - no compression, crankshaft moving more than 1/32"? I have an engine (lapped piston) that cold has a good snap when flipping. If you slowly turn it over it holds for a bit but will leak off after 10 - 15 sec. It has been running a little erratic. I have found some trash in the NVA and hope this cures the crazy running, seemed lean then rich, would smooth out if I climbed slowly to the top of  the circle. I think the trash in the NVA moved and it went rich. Had some crackling at first then it slowed, no sag just slow (10% N 26% Oil). I have it cleaned and will try it this weekend. Any thoughts?

Best,    DennisT

Offline Peter in Fairfax, VA

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Re: How to tell if an engine is worn out?
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2019, 04:58:46 PM »
I agree.  Difficult hot start is the sign that the engine needs a new piston / sleeve for a lapped engine.

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: How to tell if an engine is worn out?
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2019, 05:54:23 PM »
  There are LOTS of engines that can be hard to restart hot, and not be worn out. Most Fox.35's won't restart easy when hot. It takes a lot of work to assemble an engine for racing purposes where pits stops are required that will restart hot. That is why diesels are so popular for team racing and such Europe. If you have stunt engine that is that hot after a pattern, you may be over cooking it if it's cowled and insufficient air flow over the head/cylinder and bad cooling air exhaust. If it's just running funny and you found crap in the needle valve, , that is your issue and you need to find the source of the crap. Going lean because of some debris is very curable.
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Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: How to tell if an engine is worn out?
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2019, 06:01:32 PM »
Maybe it's a Fox NV Assy. and the crap found in it was "a good thing"? Randy Aero has a Fox .35S NV Assy. that should be the bee's knees.   y1 Steve
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Offline BillP

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Re: How to tell if an engine is worn out?
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2019, 07:45:59 AM »
Other than just being very low in compression when flipping, first sign to me is hard starting by hand while easy starting with an electric starter. Hot/cold doesn't matter. If you keep engines long enough to track max rpms when new and old, they show a drop in max rpms...but then there are ringed engines that show lower rpms due only to worn ring.
Bill P.

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: How to tell if an engine is worn out?
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2019, 08:38:42 AM »
How do you tell when an engine is worn out? I mean beside the - no compression, crankshaft moving more than 1/32"? I have an engine (lapped piston) that cold has a good snap when flipping. If you slowly turn it over it holds for a bit but will leak off after 10 - 15 sec. It has been running a little erratic. I have found some trash in the NVA and hope this cures the crazy running, seemed lean then rich, would smooth out if I climbed slowly to the top of  the circle. I think the trash in the NVA moved and it went rich. Had some crackling at first then it slowed, no sag just slow (10% N 26% Oil). I have it cleaned and will try it this weekend. Any thoughts?

   Generally, it will be hard to start. Also, iron-piston engines will tend to go lean in the air. But, mostly, as they wear, the fuel consumption goes up and the power goes down. As the power goes down, you usually have to start setting it slower on the ground to get it the right speed in the air. As it becomes weaker, it wants to unload more, so to get a particular in-flight speed, you have to start lower.

   Wearing out piston rings was a a few weeks/nearly monthly occurrence when I was running ST46s, I could tell when it was time to change it when the required launch RPM fell below some threshold - new fresh ring was something like 8500-8600, tons of power in flight, worn out might be 7800-7900. This to get the same in-flight speed.

    The one quality engine I have ever worn out just from excessive use was a 40VF, when after thousands of flights over 10ish years, I was sitting there on Circle 3 at the NATs, was leaning it out a bit to get the desired RPM, and went "over the top" to the point it was starting to sag off lean. At that point, it just didn't have enough power left for normal operation. Even with that, I backed it off, launched as absolutely as fast as it would go in those conditions, and got one of the higher NATs flight scores I have seen, 595 as I recall, and wound up first on my circle.

   With just about any modern engine, they are practically impossible to wear out in any reasonable number of flights, just from use. Dust/dirt/self-generated FOD is another story. I have had several instances where various internal failures caused self-generated FOD to score or damage the piston or liner, to the point it needed to be replaced.

     Given that essentially all currently-competitive engines and the vast majority of sport engines are ABC/ABN/AAC, just wearing out with no extenuating circumstances can probably be dismissed as a cause of problems, unless you sucked up too much dirt or had an explicit failure.

         Brett

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: How to tell if an engine is worn out?
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2019, 09:55:12 AM »
   I have experienced a situation with a St.46 where from one flight to the next, it would not run. It was a used engine, and I was practicing for the SIG contest at Buder Park. I had put up about 3 flights with cooling off in between, and on the fourth flight it would not fire at all. Tried changing everything. Gary Hajek suggested that the ring had worn out past the point of supplying enough compression to run. At that time, it didn't feel too bad to me. I followed Gary to his house and bought a new ring from him. The SIG contest was the next weekend, so no time top send the engine off to have it installed, so I begged Tom Lay to coach me through it. Got the engine dis-assembled, ring gapped and installed, and reassembled in time to leave for the SIG contest. I put 4 or 5 ground runs on it to seat the ring, and as soon as the exhaust was clear I had no more problems. I still have that engine somewhere. I have seen slug engines do the same thing, run up to a point, then nothing. Sometimes a shot of oil with the prime would let it start and run if absolutely necessary. A two stroke model engine has to have enough compression to start along with the glow plug. Ringed engines can vary, especially if it has a Dykes or L-shaped ring. They seem worn out when they are brand new and benefit from some extra oil in the fuel, and usually a starter to start it until the ring seats as best it can. These are designed to seal the best after the explosion of the fuel/air mixture that sends the piston the other way. Varying opinions on their worth and effectiveness.
  As far as cranks shaft wear, I have seen some Fox .35's that you might think were ready for the trash can , but the owners said " heck it's just getting to where I like 'em!"
  Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: How to tell if an engine is worn out?
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2019, 10:16:58 AM »
  As far as cranks shaft wear, I have seen some Fox .35's that you might think were ready for the trash can , but the owners said " heck it's just getting to where I like 'em!"

  Oh no, on 4-2 break engines you want the front end as loose as possible. The best plain-bearing 4-2 break engines I have seen and run all had the bushing so loose that you could rock the prop tips back and forth 1/16, 1/8, or more. Foxes typically go through 2-3 owners before they get loose enough. Any sort of drag or even normal tight fits can make it very prone to slow transitions.

   The Discovery-Retro is uncannily free through bottom dead center as well, it's almost like an FAI speed engine in that regard.

    Brett


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