Author Topic: How to run Super Tigre 60 (small case.) (Read 2182 times)

Peter in Fairfax, VA · « **on:** June 29, 2021, 08:48:51 AM »

So, I have a NIB ST 60 that I plan to run in a Brodak Strega ARF. Engine questions:

1. How much break in for this ringed, baffle piston engine? I'm thinking just enough to get the ring to seat, as observed with an even color to the ring. Maybe 3 runs?

2. What fuel? Likely I'd use 5% nitro, with oil in the 20-22% range, about a quarter or half of that being castor.

3. What prop? Probably I'd use a Rev-Up 12-5, maybe a 13-5 of some sort.

4. What tank size? The standard 6 oz sounds fine.

5. How to start it? Probably choke it 6 flips, six more flips no choke, attach batt, flip forward to start.

I'm kind of familiar with this engine, as I've launched another club member's plane a number of times. However, still interested in your thoughts, as well.

thanks,

Peter

Dan McEntee · « **Reply #1 on:** June 29, 2021, 09:16:57 AM »

Hi Peter;
Well, you have a lot of it figured out already. !! Search out the forums here and you should be able to find Tom Lay's break in instructions also which may come in handy even if it isn't one of his prepared engines.

1) Break in on a test stand with no muffler. The 12-5 prop you have will be good for this. A little extra castor in the fuel for break in will help for break in. 6 ounce tank, hot plug. Sitting upright it shouldn't take too many choke strokes. Connect battery and feel for a bump. If you get the bump, back flip the prop against compression and you should be off and running. Set needle into a four stroke setting and pinch off the fuel when the tank starts to run out. Repeat three or four times and check the ring through the exhaust port each time. You should see it start to get shiny at the top and that will work it's way down as you go. Exhaust will be dirty at first and will clean up as things g along.

2) When the shiny part starts to get near the bottom you could probably fly it in a model carefully with the 13-5 prop if the model isn't too heavy. The fuel you mention should be OK but towards the 22% side with at least half castor. Keep an eye on how the exhaust looks, it should start to become clear. Flying props will be the 13-5 and 13-6. I have been liking the Xoar 13-5 and 13-6 props for mine lately. If you can find Vess props there 13-6 worked very well on a heavier model for me. GlowDevil R/C long or Thunderbolt plugs recommended.

3) Have fun!!

Type at you later,
Dan McEntee

Peter in Fairfax, VA · « **Reply #2 on:** June 29, 2021, 11:40:17 AM »

Dan,

Thanks for writing in. Your writing is always appreciated and food for thought.

The idea of getting Xoar 13-5 or 13-6 props sounds good. While I know I could find a source for more expensive carbon fiber props, Xoar is a brand that works for me.

Myself, I'm not a fan of "feel for a bump." The theory I like is that the bump burning represents a wasted prime that was exactly where needed. But, I appreciate that others find the "feel for a bump" technique good.

As far as flipping technique, I'm curious as to the terminology we should use here to be well understood. Here's what I use:

"Flip it forward" - This is where the prop is pulled forward though compression. I use this for an engine that is lightly primed when cold, or not primed when hot.

"Flip it backwards" - This is is where the prop is pulled backwards through compression. Used for a flooded engine. The idea is that the crank timing will draw less fuel in reverse, helping clear the flood.

"Bump it" - This is my preferred technique for my LA 46, when cold. The prop is rotate forwards until it meets compression. Then I strike the prop with a chicken stick so that it goes backwards. I'm pretty sure this is the same as "back flip the prop against compression" above.

Typically starts on first strike. A local speed flyer has expressed concern that I hit it quite hard, risking breaking the prop. To my good fortune, the Rev-Ups are pretty tough. This same flyer is able to start his engine with the same technique, but grabbing the spinner to do the rotation, not using the prop.

Thanks again. I'll work through the precise 6 oz flight duration when the project gets that far.

Peter

Dan McEntee · « **Reply #3 on:** June 29, 2021, 03:42:20 PM »

Quote from: Peter in Fairfax, VA on June 29, 2021, 11:40:17 AM

Dan,

Thanks for writing in. Your writing is always appreciated and food for thought.

The idea of getting Xoar 13-5 or 13-6 props sounds good. While I know I could find a source for more expensive carbon fiber props, Xoar is a brand that works for me.

Myself, I'm not a fan of "feel for a bump." The theory I like is that the bump burning represents a wasted prime that was exactly where needed. But, I appreciate that others find the "feel for a bump" technique good.

As far as flipping technique, I'm curious as to the terminology we should use here to be well understood. Here's what I use:

"Flip it forward" - This is where the prop is pulled forward though compression. I use this for an engine that is lightly primed when cold, or not primed when hot.

"Flip it backwards" - This is is where the prop is pulled backwards through compression. Used for a flooded engine. The idea is that the crank timing will draw less fuel in reverse, helping clear the flood.

"Bump it" - This is my preferred technique for my LA 46, when cold. The prop is rotate forwards until it meets compression. Then I strike the prop with a chicken stick so that it goes backwards. I'm pretty sure this is the same as "back flip the prop against compression" above.

Typically starts on first strike. A local speed flyer has expressed concern that I hit it quite hard, risking breaking the prop. To my good fortune, the Rev-Ups are pretty tough. This same flyer is able to start his engine with the same technique, but grabbing the spinner to do the rotation, not using the prop.

Thanks again. I'll work through the precise 6 oz flight duration when the project gets that far.

Peter

The "bump it" is what I am referring to by saying "back flip it against the compression." I do this with almost any size engine if te engine is capable of doing it. It gets your fingers out of the way of the prop, which is important on a .60!! It's the same, as you say , when he uses the spinner and what some call "spinner starts."
The ST .60 is an interesting engine and fun to run and fly with. It makes that classic Super Tigre "growl" , especially when it's got the right prop on it. Some may think I'm crazy but I say the ST engines tell you when you have the right props and it's loaded correctly! It does make a specific exhaust note and I just live it. It may be an outdated power plant for top level competition but people still use flat head Ford V-8s in their hot rods for fun and for the sound so I equate the ST.60 and the ST.46 to that. The newer ST-G.51 fits the same mold and responds in much the same way, especially when starting up. To me it's one of the things that makes flying fun!
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee

Peter in Fairfax, VA · « **Reply #4 on:** June 29, 2021, 04:15:42 PM »

I happen to have a nice ST 46. However, I don't have a plane for it. So I will likely sell it. Myself, I am more of a competitor than a collector. For me, the LA 46 works well in that range.

Craig Beswick · « **Reply #5 on:** June 29, 2021, 06:33:06 PM »

This is from another topic on the forum. Not sure if it applies to your situation but worth a look.

Break-In Instructions for T&L Super Tigre Engines:

I have re-honed the cylinder and have used a custom made hardened Bowman piston ring in this motor. It therefore MUST be broken-in as per these instructions!
1. Use 22-25% minimum ALL CASTOR fuel for break-in and at least for the first 20 flights. (Synthetic oil manufacturers state Do Not use synthetic oil in a ringed motor during break-in!). The NEW piston ring is hardened to 1850 degrees F.
3. Bench run the engine (without a muffler preferably). Slowly for 3 or 4 short (4 minute runs) and then look at the ring. The top half should be shiney.
4. When the entire ring is shiney you can mount the engine in the airplane and install your muffler.
5. On the ground slowly run the engine through a full tank of fuel.
6. Now you can start flying the airplane, but again, start slowly and increase the RPM slightly every flight.

After 20 flights you can use a castor/syn. blend if you are stubborn. BUT, ALL CASTOR will give you more consistent and forgiving runs and double the life of the ring in your motor.

If properly maintained this engine will give you many years of service.
Tom Lay

Regards
Craig

Martin Quartim · « **Reply #6 on:** June 30, 2021, 06:18:16 PM »

Strega ARF ends up very heavy. I had a few, I took all the excessive ply from the nose and lighten all the wing ribs as much as I could. I used a much lighter Enya 61CX engine and the total weight was 77oz which I think it is too much for an ST 60.

No one I saw trying an ST 60 with a Strega ARF was happy. We fly at 2300msl with typical D.Alt around 3600ft. If you fly at sea level perhaps it is a different story.
A
Talk to others, but my advice is to get a smaller and lighter model for your ST 60 and a stronger engine for your Strega, like a PA 75, Saito 72 or Enya 61CX if you can find one.

Also, I strongly recommend you to round the L.E as much as you can, discard the stock flaps and build new ones as thick and as stiff as possible, do not sand it, live it with a rectangular profile, and also do not round the T.E leave it square with a sharp corner hardened with CA, these things will help the Strega to do descent corner. I think VGs will help too.

Good luck

Martin

Peter in Fairfax, VA · « **Reply #7 on:** June 30, 2021, 08:25:15 PM »

What is a VG?

Craig Beswick · « **Reply #8 on:** June 30, 2021, 10:40:17 PM »

Sparky would say Rat turds. Ha ha.

Vortex Generator?? Maybe. The air disruptor things on the wing.

Craig

Air Ministry . · « **Reply #9 on:** July 02, 2021, 06:53:31 PM »

Quote

Strega ARF ends up very heavy. I had a few, I took all the excessive ply from the nose and lighten all the wing ribs as much as I could. I used a much lighter Enya 61CX engine and the total weight was 77oz which I think it is too much for an ST 60.

No one I saw trying an ST 60 with a Strega ARF was happy. We fly at 2300msl with typical D.Alt around 3600ft. If you fly at sea level perhaps it is a different story.
A
Talk to others, but my advice is to get a smaller and lighter model for your ST 60 and a stronger engine for your Strega, like a PA 75, Saito 72 or Enya 61CX if you can find one.

WHERE did the STREGA come intoit . ?

Cardinal 92 ora P M 60 would do it . Strangely the Royal 46 on a 12 x 6 7 15 % nitro hauls a 80 Oz strega ARC pretty well . evenifitis besides the point . $:-\$

Dd somebody mention the leading edge ?

thems a quater square and 1 / 16 in. sheet .

https://stunthanger.com/smf/nostalgia-30/big-jim%27s-n30-designs-patternmsater/

https://stunthanger.com/smf/open-forum/'92-cardinal-plans-who-sells-them/msg581092/#msg581092

Air Ministry . · « **Reply #10 on:** July 02, 2021, 06:58:54 PM »

Sparky would say Rat turds.

First time I saw PJs Nobler i went to wipe the mouse @#$% of the wing , Luckily he was present and explained it might not be mouse @#$% . I suppose the bigger planes have bigger ones , RATS .

Steve Helmick · « **Reply #11 on:** July 08, 2021, 02:19:56 PM »

Quote from: Air Ministry . on July 02, 2021, 06:53:31 PM

WHERE did the STREGA come intoit . ?
First line of the OP's first post. Pretty clear. "So, I have a NIB ST 60 that I plan to run in a Brodak Strega ARF. Engine questions:"

Cardinal 92 ora P M 60 would do it . Strangely the Royal 46 on a 12 x 6 7 15 % nitro hauls a 80 Oz strega ARC pretty well . evenifitis besides the point . $:-\$

Dd somebody mention the leading edge ?

thems a quater square and 1 / 16 in. sheet .

https://stunthanger.com/smf/nostalgia-30/big-jim%27s-n30-designs-patternmsater/

https://stunthanger.com/smf/open-forum/'92-cardinal-plans-who-sells-them/msg581092/#msg581092

Air Ministry . · « **Reply #12 on:** July 08, 2021, 11:03:29 PM »

Now THATS a Cunning Place to Hide it .

Steve Helmick · « **Reply #13 on:** July 22, 2021, 06:44:56 PM »

Fuel should probably start out with all castor and then transition to 5% synthetic. I'm not sure how much synthetic it takes to stop the castor from clogging up the ring groove. I doubt that a 50-50 mix is required.

As for the prop question, back (long ago!) when I asked the same question, John Leidle said that a 12-6 was the standard prop for ST .60bb's. Mine was actually a Double Star .60bb ABC (a ST .60bb clone, but ABC), and I really liked the 12.5 x 6 APC. APC props are quite a bit of a load, so keep that in mind. I really like that engine, tho I'm not sure it beeps into 2 stroke at exactly the right places. Could use some head shimming experiments, probably, and maybe more nitro. I'm sure a 13-5 Xoar would be on my list of stuff to try, if they make one, and if I could get some. IDK where to get Xoar props anymore. Lots has changed due to tarriff changes and covid.

I always thought that testing props was THE DEAL to finding happiness in stunt (and other events), but if you find a really good prop but can't get more of the same, then it is only an indication that you need to keep looking. I'm not inclined to rely on a prop I can't duplicate for a spare.

Steve

Air Ministry . · « **Reply #14 on:** July 22, 2021, 10:43:45 PM »

Pye Korry .

" Castor based, ester-fortified 2-stroke engine oil designed to ensure maximum performance while providing maximum protection under the most severe conditions. Carbonization and vaporization resistant formulation combines surface-active esters with a highly-refined castor oil to provide excellent film thickness and surface tenacity, protecting cylinder walls, journals and other critical areas. Proprietary ash-free additive system keeps your engine running clean and free of gum formation, corrosion and deposits. "

https://maximausa.com/series-252-castor-927.html?locale=en

Steve Helmick · « **Reply #15 on:** July 25, 2021, 12:07:28 PM »

Looked at the Maxima oil website but didn't find anyway to look for a local source. Noticing that they also make air and oil filters, I looked for an air filter for my Yamaha MX-175 free flight go-getter. No luck on that score, either.

Steve

Author Topic: How to run Super Tigre 60 (small case.) (Read 2182 times)

Peter in Fairfax, VA

How to run Super Tigre 60 (small case.)

Dan McEntee

Re: How to run Super Tigre 60 (small case.)

Peter in Fairfax, VA

Re: How to run Super Tigre 60 (small case.)

Dan McEntee

Re: How to run Super Tigre 60 (small case.)

Peter in Fairfax, VA

Re: How to run Super Tigre 60 (small case.)

Craig Beswick

Re: How to run Super Tigre 60 (small case.)

Martin Quartim

Re: How to run Super Tigre 60 (small case.)

Peter in Fairfax, VA

Re: How to run Super Tigre 60 (small case.)

Craig Beswick

Re: How to run Super Tigre 60 (small case.)

Air Ministry .

Re: How to run Super Tigre 60 (small case.)

Air Ministry .

Re: How to run Super Tigre 60 (small case.)

Steve Helmick

Re: How to run Super Tigre 60 (small case.)

Air Ministry .

Re: How to run Super Tigre 60 (small case.)

Steve Helmick

Re: How to run Super Tigre 60 (small case.)

Air Ministry .

Re: How to run Super Tigre 60 (small case.)

Steve Helmick

Re: How to run Super Tigre 60 (small case.)