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Author Topic: Help needed, tank position vs. remote needle..  (Read 3834 times)

Online Lauri Malila

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Help needed, tank position vs. remote needle..
« on: May 09, 2011, 02:31:28 PM »
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« Last Edit: October 01, 2024, 01:54:14 PM by Lauri Malila »

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Help needed, tank position vs. remote needle..
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2011, 03:31:15 PM »
I have a problem that goes beyond my understanding of fluid dynamics.
 Lately I've been flying quite a lot my new Shark/Metkemeijer .77 engine combination. The model flies just great and the engine is very good too. Finally enough power!
 But there is a small problem, the engine goes richer in outside maneuvres. I'm quite sure that the problem is in the fuel system, but I will also test and make a new cylinder hear with some kind of a shield for the plug to be sure. The engine is bolted to the model with cylinder tilted 10 degreed down from horizontal.
 There is no difference in level/inverted lap times, richening happens only in outside loops (both in horiz.- and vertical 8 for example).
 Lauri  

   We have fought stuff like this for years. I doubt that it is the tank or fuel system -  it's the engine and the way it scavenges. A plug shield may help, although on outsides, the way it is oriented, any raw fuel that may be flying around in there is directed *away* from the head by acceleration so I would be a bit surprised if that is the problem.

    I would also look carefully at the venturi - the one item that had a big effect is the "fuel post venturi"/spigot venturi invented by Frank Williams. This absolutely transformed several engines that had problems with inside/outside difference.

    Beyond that, the only advice I can offer is that on schneurle engines, the size, area, and orientation of the ports and the bypass seem to make a lot of difference. Small ports/high port velocity seems to make a big difference. If this is a baffle-piston engine for some reason, then I would look at the baffle position and height.

    Almost the entire time we (Ted, David, and I) have been running schneurle engines we have had to change various parts around to get rid of this sort of thing. The reason we have gone off the reservation on several of the canonical setups is to try to solve this. Most of the stuff we tried didn't work, the only ancillary part that ever had much effect was the spigot venturi

    Brett
« Last Edit: May 09, 2011, 10:26:05 PM by Brett Buck »

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Help needed, tank position vs. remote needle..
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2011, 03:50:53 PM »
I think that -- as long as there isn't any bubbles in the line -- the fact that the needle valve is remote is going to change anything.  There's a certain amount of head drop (or gain) because of the height difference from the liquid level (or uniflow vent) in the tank to the opening in the spray bar, and there's a certain amount of head drop because of the rate of fuel flow and the size of the orifice in the needle valve.  Where you put the needle -- whether it's going through the spray bar or at the end of the pick up tube -- shouldn't matter.

There's a lot of other reasons why a remote needle valve may give you grief (particularly anything involving bubbles in the fuel), but not, I think, that.
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Offline Chris Wilson

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Re: Help needed, tank position vs. remote needle..
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2011, 05:46:43 PM »
Doesn't Igor Burger use remote needle valves and canted engines in some of his models?

http://www.netax.sk/hexoft/stunt/images/Rim00025.jpg

Perhaps he has some advice on this?
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Online Lauri Malila

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Re: Help needed, tank position vs. remote needle..
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2011, 11:01:25 AM »
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« Last Edit: October 01, 2024, 01:53:30 PM by Lauri Malila »

Online Lauri Malila

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Re: Help needed, tank position vs. remote needle..
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2011, 04:29:22 AM »

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« Last Edit: October 01, 2024, 01:53:10 PM by Lauri Malila »

Offline Martin Quartim

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Re: Help needed, tank position vs. remote needle..
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2011, 11:18:41 AM »

Have you tried the spigot like Brett suggested?


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Offline Peter Nevai

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Re: Help needed, tank position vs. remote needle..
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2011, 12:10:27 PM »
What precentage and what type of oil are you using in the fuel?  Remember not all oil in the fuel mix is expelled from the engine. It coats all the parts and some always remains within the engine, despite the alcohol in the fuel to help keep it dissolved. If there are areas within the case when significant amounts of oil can accumulate and then be forced to the top of the cylinder on outsides you may have a problem. You mentioned that you changed fuels but did that change encompass a different oil ratio or type of oil?

Hotter plugs would not help with this as the mixture changes as accumulated oil migrates to the combustion chamber.

This is not from experience, just my thoughts on a cause that happens to fit the symptoms. (out of the Box Thinking)

Looking at the engine photo, that motor looks like a to be a plain bearing, rear rotor, rear exhaust fiant fox 59. For a .75 engine the crankcase volume seems minuscule. Certainly no looking as if you can get enough fuel air packed in there to fill a .77 combustion chamber. Also such a short venturi, coupled with such a small crankcase volume certainly does not lend it's self to great fuel air atomization. It would seem to me that there sould be more area available to mix ait with fuel. The direct shot to the crankcase of raw fuel premix and such a small crancase volume is inviting raw premix a direct path to the combustion chamber when inverted.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2011, 12:28:55 PM by Peter Nevai »
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Online Lauri Malila

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Re: Help needed, tank position vs. remote needle..
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2011, 01:18:21 PM »

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« Last Edit: October 01, 2024, 01:52:49 PM by Lauri Malila »

Offline Peter Nevai

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Re: Help needed, tank position vs. remote needle..
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2011, 03:34:25 PM »
My consern about the volume being small is directly related to the location of the Venturi.

The venturi is very short, the spray bar or spigot is very close to the intake in the back plate, the rear rotor is almost directly under the piston area. Since CL fuel metering systems are so crude by nature it takes quite a bit of turbulence to properly atomize the fuel mixture. To get proper engine runs the fuel has to be mixed with the air as finely as possible. On front intake engines the distance the fuel / air mix has to travel is much further than on your engine. The fuel has more time to thoroughly mix with the air before being sucked into the transfer ports.

I think too much raw fuel vs fuel air mix is getting to the combustion chamber due to the very short almost direct path the fuel has. Gravity along with the G force in outside turns is making this compounding the problem. On the outsides I think that more fuel than fuel / air mix is getting to the combustion chamber as raw fuel weighs more than the air / fuel Mix mist.

May I suggest that you lengthen the ventury and move the spray bar (Spigot) further away from the rear rotor and give the fuel more time to vaporize before being sucked into the engine. In other words move the point where the fuel enters the venturi further away from backplate.
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Offline Chris Wilson

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Re: Help needed, tank position vs. remote needle..
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2011, 08:48:39 PM »
If I read this correctly the engine is canted down by 10º and it goes rich only during outside maneuvers, yes?

That 'should' cause any ballistic based effect within the engine to give a certain leanness as the fuel/air mix travels down that 10º slope back to the lower crankcase.

There is no doubt in my mind that the fuel/air mix does indeed coalesce on any surface that it comes in contact with and will pool in any available crevice despite the tornado of closely moving parts that are in close proximity.

I read with interest about a MVVS 49 converted to a diesel for stunt use - this was side mounted and burped badly on the outside maneuvers.
The cause was oil collecting in the fourth unused port cutaway in the lower crankcase, that came loose only on outside G forces.
That vestige of a port was plugged up and the problem dissolved. But everything else about that engine was around 90º compass points and different from what is presented here.

But there is a theory I read about in combat models that proposed that the column of fuel and air trapped between the spray bar and the spinning crank shaft is also subject to G forces and will act as a throttle of sorts. This constantly moving forward (by force of inertia) column only has the way forward open to less than half of the time (140º?) and the remaining degrees is slammed up against a closed port, pooling there until a window of opportunity opens for it to flow forward again.

Here, the intake is sloped by 10º towards the centre line of the crank and will act as a richening device, releasing its 'column' all the more readily during the outsides.

I humbly suggest placing that 'column' of fuel and air or the intake parallel to wing so that there is no force feeding going on and see how that goes.

Good luck mate.

P.S. What I am trying to say in not so many words is that you have a 10º down draught carby for the outsides and a 10º updraught for the insides giving a total of 20º difference depending on the direction of maneuver.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2011, 09:05:52 PM by Chris Wilson »
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Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Help needed, tank position vs. remote needle..
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2011, 09:01:51 PM »
I'm thinking along the same lines, Chris. I know Dave Simons since '79 (we were young F1A fliers), and he had the same complaint about his Retro Discovery ARF. Dave finally boxed up the engine/fuselage nose and shipped it to Brothers Yatsenko, asking them to sidemount the engine (previously inverted). They returned it canted, not side mounted, but it finally worked correctly. I would suggest trying it on a plastic R/C mount on some sort of a test model (TF Score?). Rotate the engine around until it works correctly. Well, it's what I'd try.  H^^ Steve
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Offline Chris Wilson

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Re: Help needed, tank position vs. remote needle..
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2011, 09:13:19 PM »
Hi Steve,
             I am thinking all that is needed is a non biased or 0º intake tube and leave the engine mounts at -10º.
By the way, lengthening the intake will only make the draught angle more effective and the problem worse.

Surely its easier to machine a new back plate for a 0º intake than to completely re- engineer the nacelle.
(Have you seen the work that Laurie has put into it here? I would exhaust every other possibility first.)
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You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.
 Nothing in life is so exhilarating as to be shot at without result.  It's not enough that we do our best; sometimes we have to do what's required

Online Lauri Malila

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Re: Help needed, tank position vs. remote needle..
« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2011, 09:24:36 AM »
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« Last Edit: October 01, 2024, 01:52:31 PM by Lauri Malila »

Offline Chris Wilson

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Re: Help needed, tank position vs. remote needle..
« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2011, 03:41:14 PM »
Laurie,
          have a talk to the combat guys who have has experience with slightly canted engine bearers that allow their exhaust to clear the wing.

Some of those may have had similar effects to what you are describing.

But anyway, it would be interesting to here from you when its all figured out.

Good luck mate.
MAAA AUS 73427

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.
 Nothing in life is so exhilarating as to be shot at without result.  It's not enough that we do our best; sometimes we have to do what's required

Online Lauri Malila

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Re: Help needed, tank position vs. remote needle..
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2011, 01:47:35 PM »
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« Last Edit: October 01, 2024, 01:52:09 PM by Lauri Malila »

Online Lauri Malila

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Re: Help needed, tank position vs. remote needle..
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2011, 02:07:09 PM »
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« Last Edit: October 01, 2024, 01:51:09 PM by Lauri Malila »

Online Lauri Malila

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Re: Help needed, tank position vs. remote needle..
« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2011, 08:24:15 AM »
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« Last Edit: October 01, 2024, 01:50:47 PM by Lauri Malila »

Online Lauri Malila

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Re: Help needed, tank position vs. remote needle..
« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2012, 06:08:00 AM »
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« Last Edit: October 01, 2024, 01:50:22 PM by Lauri Malila »


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