Author Topic: Helicopter Fuel (Read 2658 times)

Casey · « **on:** August 21, 2019, 09:19:48 PM »

Is the Rotor Rage Master's Blend Helicopter Fuel with 21% Synthetic oil and 30% nitro suitable for the Norvel 074?

Gary Dowler · « **Reply #1 on:** August 21, 2019, 10:48:19 PM »

I'd think it would work......but I doubt you need 30% nitro.

Gary

Mike Scholtes · « **Reply #2 on:** August 21, 2019, 11:43:05 PM »

I would post this over in the 1/2A section where there are more people likely to know about the Norvel engines. I have run Norvel 049 and 061 but on airplane fuel with some castor in it. I have run 35-45% nitro fuel in 1/2A free flight motors so 30% is not excessive. I imagine the oil is the important component, and not sure all-syn is healthy for the Norvels.

944_Jim · « **Reply #3 on:** August 22, 2019, 04:17:35 AM »

I have a couple of these engines. They are sweet engines. They start easily now that they are broken in. I follow the recommended fuel mix with about 22% nitro and 22-ish oil 50/50 synth/castor.
I would not use your chosen fuel unless cutting the oil content by mixing straight methanol first, and then adding castor to bump up the oil content. One gallon meth to one gallon heli fuel will drop your nitro and synth in half. Adding castor will drop the nitro more, and raise the oil back up.

I use a two fuel spreadsheet that takes the values of two fuels, and allows for juggling in castor by fractional ounces to generate your final fuel mix: http://web2.murraystate.edu/andy.batts/ps/fuel.htm and use his spreadsheet.

I copied his, and adjusted it for 1/2 pints to mix in smaller lots. So far all of my Cox, Norvels and APs have done fine without wrecking conrods, piston/cylinders, or blowing plugs.

According to NVEngines.com, "
Requirements - minimum 18-22% oil in the fuel with 50% being Castor oil in engines smaller than .15."

Hope this helps you!

http://www.nvengines.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=45&Itemid=18

Angelo Smyth · « **Reply #4 on:** August 22, 2019, 07:00:52 AM »

Quote from: Casey on August 21, 2019, 09:19:48 PM

Is the Rotor Rage Master's Blend Helicopter Fuel with 21% Synthetic oil and 30% nitro suitable for the Norvel 074?

I've used this very fuel for both my small Norvies and Cox engines. Although Byron touts their "Proprietary LowVis Synthetic package", I did cut-in some castor oil to be on the safe side. It's easy enough to do using the calculator posted above.

Dan Berry · « **Reply #5 on:** August 22, 2019, 07:18:40 AM »

The Norvel engine probably wants some castor oil. Probably ONLY wants castor but someone like Mears or Driskill would need to confirm that.

Peter in Fairfax, VA · « **Reply #6 on:** August 22, 2019, 08:39:41 AM »

The mixing idea sounds good, as does the little bit o' castor. For example, Sig 10% nitro / 25% castor fuel added to the heli fuel would get you very close to the advised mix. I'm a fan of castor, though I keep a crock pot with antifreeze ready when engines get so varnished they squeak, tight. Further, all castor does not appeal. The idea that some synthetic will help keep engines clean makes sense.

944_Jim · « **Reply #7 on:** August 22, 2019, 09:13:56 AM »

Quote from: Dan Berry on August 22, 2019, 07:18:40 AM

The Norvel engine probably wants some castor oil. Probably ONLY wants castor but someone like Mears or Driskill would need to confirm that.

Ummm, not trying to pick a fight. See the bottom of my previous post. NVEngines is pretty clear about the need and quantity of castor oil. Oh, and I quoted their data early in my entry.

Fredvon4 · « **Reply #8 on:** August 22, 2019, 11:34:18 AM »

IF the Rotor Rage fuel is a good price, I think those ratios are a very good blending my own start.
Around here I only find RC car stuff.. decent Nitro (15% ~35%), but very low synth oil content (12%~17%)...still when it is on sale (under $17) I get a jug cuz it is still a good base for blending

Hint... buy a beaker set in Liters and MilliLiters...Norvel small engine does not need a gallon on the shelf unless you fly a LOT...

I mix my dinky engine fuel in 500 mL batches..basically half a quart/Liter

A liter is 1000mL little more than a Quart

Base ten math is easier for me than imperial gallons, quarts, pints, cups, and ounces

1000mL with 30% N and 21% oil= 300ml N and 210mL oil
500ml then is half or 150ml N and 105mL oil

adding Oil or methanol will dilute the base proportionally

I keep all components on hand for direct blending or augmenting local fuel blends

I, admittingly for combat use, push high Nitro fuels in the Novels....they do NOT have a Ball Joint like a Cox

Norvel recommends 20~22% oil 50/50 synth/Castor and NV has a caution that up to 35% N is ok for max performance but higher vitamin N will shorten engine life....yup I spit a few cranks at 45% N and too shallow pitch prop...BUT man was that baby screaming...grin

Many NV engines have too tight a crank to nose bushing clearance. During break in or first flight they heat up and start galling and seizing....All my New NVs get a diamond paste ( Pinewood Derby Axle polish KIT) crankShaft polish before break in

speaking of break in...the NV instructions of removing head adding an oil and spinning the engine with a starter for two minutes is pure BS and should NOT be done..They sold through SigMFG for a few years...Sig (and others) got too many returns....US modelers did not know how to start a TIGHT pinch engine. They also did NOT know to Never turn slowly to TDC and stop..this squeezes ALL the oil and seizes the piston...VERY high torque to move the piston stretches and distorts the rod and crank pin....

Almost all these type engines need heat gun to the head for first start...usually only the first time

RandySmith · « **Reply #9 on:** August 22, 2019, 06:05:55 PM »

Why not just get the recommended fuel for the engine?

Randy

Bill Adair · « **Reply #10 on:** August 22, 2019, 06:27:22 PM »

Quote from: RandySmith on August 22, 2019, 06:05:55 PM

Why not just get the recommended fuel for the engine?

Randy

Perfect solution!

I value my engines, so I always run the recommended fuels.

Fred is correct! Ignore those stupid instructions to break in cold, with a starter or drill press.

Bill

Fredvon4 · « **Reply #11 on:** August 23, 2019, 01:26:30 PM »

Randy...not trying to be smart guy....

I live literally over a 100 miles from any local supplier, and that means a round trip to Waco LHS (closest with a few brands and blends) That is a 5 hour* travel and gasoline and car wear n tear)

*Texas I-35 is a parking lot most of the time due to 40 years of perpetual construction between Austin and Waco

None of the near in speed shops and drag race shops will sell small qty...They will use their account to order me up 55Gal Meth and 25Gal Nitro.

Castor and synth oils are easy as is your Aero One that I use

When I can get them to answer the mail or phone...Riches Brew blended me some gallons for the Nelson N36s. The price was very good..Hazmat Shipping was too high for my NON competition use..Only gy I found that would use UCONN LB 625 oil as recommended by Henry Nelson....Yes I know the North west folks use 10~15% store bought go juice

Tower no longer sells the 1/2a blends
Sig Is usually backorder these days

If you know sources that sell the right fuel in non haz mat quarts for a reasonable price we are all ears...

SigMfg, when they have it, costs a lot more per quart that the already pretty high Gallon price....I have no problem with the Sig 1/2 fuels I got---- but I know folks who fear the taters and wont run the stuff...

All in all the only issues I see with buying wrong stuff and blending to what is needed, is something you pointed out and I take as Gospel.....low oil content fuels are usually not even the low content they claim. Your boil down testing was replicated by me to confirm the RC Car stuff I got cheap was nearly 13% synth vs a 17% label
It is also not possible to know what the synth oil is...I tend to think that getting 13% up in the 22~25% range I desire my known oils will or should dilute the unknown oil and make it a non issue

My notes and attitude apply to Sport Flying...If YOU compete, suck up the cost--- and get the good stuff..Grin

Dan Berry · « **Reply #12 on:** August 23, 2019, 02:41:59 PM »

Quote from: Fredvon4 on August 23, 2019, 01:26:30 PM

Randy...not trying to be smart guy....

I live literally over a 100 miles from any local supplier, and that means a round trip to Waco LHS (closest with a few brands and blends) That is a 5 hour* travel and gasoline and car wear n tear)

*Texas I-35 is a parking lot most of the time due to 40 years of perpetual construction between Austin and Waco

None of the near in speed shops and drag race shops will sell small qty...They will use their account to order me up 55Gal Meth and 25Gal Nitro.

Castor and synth oils are easy as is your Aero One that I use

When I can get them to answer the mail or phone...Riches Brew blended me some gallons for the Nelson N36s. The price was very good..Hazmat Shipping was too high for my NON competition use..Only gy I found that would use UCONN LB 625 oil as recommended by Henry Nelson....Yes I know the North west folks use 10~15% store bought go juice

Tower no longer sells the 1/2a blends
Sig Is usually backorder these days

If you know sources that sell the right fuel in non haz mat quarts for a reasonable price we are all ears...

SigMfg, when they have it, costs a lot more per quart that the already pretty high Gallon price....I have no problem with the Sig 1/2 fuels I got---- but I know folks who fear the taters and wont run the stuff...

All in all the only issues I see with buying wrong stuff and blending to what is needed, is something you pointed out and I take as Gospel.....low oil content fuels are usually not even the low content they claim. Your boil down testing was replicated by me to confirm the RC Car stuff I got cheap was nearly 13% synth vs a 17% label
It is also not possible to know what the synth oil is...I tend to think that getting 13% up in the 22~25% range I desire my known oils will or should dilute the unknown oil and make it a non issue

My notes and attitude apply to Sport Flying...If YOU compete, suck up the cost--- and get the good stuff..Grin

RedMax will fix you up.

Mark Mc · « **Reply #13 on:** August 23, 2019, 04:58:09 PM »

Quote from: Fredvon4 on August 23, 2019, 01:26:30 PM

If you know sources that sell the right fuel in non haz mat quarts for a reasonable price we are all ears...

I just ordered two quarts from Brodak, one 25% nitro and one 35%, for a not unreasonable price without the Hazmat shipping charge.

Mark

944_Jim · « **Reply #14 on:** August 23, 2019, 05:04:26 PM »

Like the other blenders mention...no "little engine fuel" is readily available nearby. I blend high nitro, low synthetic oil fuel, with lower nitro, low synthetic oil, and castor oil. The spreadsheet I pointed to allows for the "recipe" to have two fuels of advertised blends (to include ratios of synth to castor in those two fuels), and castor oil. The results show the resultant numbers for your blend.

My current blend:
Traxxas Top Power Plus 33%N @ 3.5 oz (truggie fuel...I lost the specs, but gleened the numbers from a Traxxas truggie manual)
Wildcat Premium 15% N (Pink Label @ 15% N, 16% oil with oil being 80% synth/20% castor) @ 4 oz
Castor oil @ 1/2 oz

Total yield is 8 ounces that looks, smells, and slimes like old Cox fuel used to. My notes from a few years back indicate the blend to be about 23% N, 19% oil (11% Synth, 8% castor) and 58% methanol (someone check my numbers, please).
Do I expect rocket science-like exact-ness? Nope. However, I bet I'm closer than I really must to be. My price-per-mix is still cheaper than paying for an advertised blend with hazmat fees!

So far, I'm almost out of the Traxxas fuel, have just under 1/2 gallon of the Wildcat, and about out of medicinal grade castor.
No ill effects have been recognized on any of the Cox Reedies, nor the AP .061, nor the Norvels.

As my "version 1" materials are running down, I now have a gallon of straight methanol, a quart of BeNol, and a quart of VPRacing 30% motorsport fuel (9% oil, type unknown). Worst case with the unknown oil is I may have a higher castor content relative to synth. But I'll research carefully before the first blend.

Steve Fitton · « **Reply #15 on:** August 23, 2019, 06:21:46 PM »

You should see what a PA 65 does on rotor rage!

Brett Buck · « **Reply #16 on:** August 23, 2019, 06:26:01 PM »

Quote from: Steve Fitton on August 23, 2019, 06:21:46 PM

You should see what a PA 65 does on rotor rage!

Run out of gas right after the triangles?

Brett

RandySmith · « **Reply #17 on:** August 23, 2019, 07:12:33 PM »

Quote from: Fredvon4 on August 23, 2019, 01:26:30 PM

Randy...not trying to be smart guy....

I live literally over a 100 miles from any local supplier, and that means a round trip to Waco LHS (closest with a few brands and blends) That is a 5 hour* travel and gasoline and car wear n tear)

*Texas I-35 is a parking lot most of the time due to 40 years of perpetual construction between Austin and Waco

None of the near in speed shops and drag race shops will sell small qty...They will use their account to order me up 55Gal Meth and 25Gal Nitro.

Castor and synth oils are easy as is your Aero One that I use

When I can get them to answer the mail or phone...Riches Brew blended me some gallons for the Nelson N36s. The price was very good..Hazmat Shipping was too high for my NON competition use..Only gy I found that would use UCONN LB 625 oil as recommended by Henry Nelson....Yes I know the North west folks use 10~15% store bought go juice

Tower no longer sells the 1/2a blends
Sig Is usually backorder these days

If you know sources that sell the right fuel in non haz mat quarts for a reasonable price we are all ears...

SigMfg, when they have it, costs a lot more per quart that the already pretty high Gallon price....I have no problem with the Sig 1/2 fuels I got---- but I know folks who fear the taters and wont run the stuff...

All in all the only issues I see with buying wrong stuff and blending to what is needed, is something you pointed out and I take as Gospel.....low oil content fuels are usually not even the low content they claim. Your boil down testing was replicated by me to confirm the RC Car stuff I got cheap was nearly 13% synth vs a 17% label
It is also not possible to know what the synth oil is...I tend to think that getting 13% up in the 22~25% range I desire my known oils will or should dilute the unknown oil and make it a non issue

My notes and attitude apply to Sport Flying...If YOU compete, suck up the cost--- and get the good stuff..Grin

Hi Fred

I understand what your saying and your frustration, If I were you I would try to buy a qt or 2 of 1/2 fuel from bRODAk SIG Rich'e or where ever you can get it with no haz mat cost
If you have to use the Heli fuel you are asking about, BUT... do a boildown test on a small sample to see what you really have. Then adjust it from there
Chances are GoOD that if the oil is lower than stated, the nitro will be even lower

Regards
Randy

Dan Berry · « **Reply #18 on:** August 23, 2019, 07:23:05 PM »

RedMax.
You call them, tell them what you want.
They mix exactly what you want and ship it in quart containers.
This isn't rocket surgery or brain science.

944_Jim · « **Reply #19 on:** August 23, 2019, 07:39:54 PM »

Mr. Berry,

Can you provide a website? I just found their gasoline/premix site. Nothing noted regarding methanol based fuels...or I missed it.

Steve Helmick · « **Reply #20 on:** August 23, 2019, 08:39:23 PM »

Bewildered, I yam. Cannot believe that nobody suggested going ahead and getting that gallon of 30%N x 21% synthetic Heli fuel and mix it 1:1 with 30% N. x 21% castor fuel.

Steve

Dan Berry · « **Reply #21 on:** August 23, 2019, 08:57:51 PM »

Quote from: 944_Jim on August 23, 2019, 07:39:54 PM

Mr. Berry,

Can you provide a website? I just found their gasoline/premix site. Nothing noted regarding methanol based fuels...or I missed it.

Try
Fhsoils dot com

944_Jim · « **Reply #22 on:** August 23, 2019, 09:36:33 PM »

Thanks Mr. Berry.

I saw Nitromethane at fhs, the quart price was nice...until I saw shipping!

I just checked Brodak...
25%N, 11%Synth,11%Castor for 2 quarts delivered for $42=$21/qt.
Wildcat gallon $26, Traxxas quart $16, BeNol quart $22...6 quarts for $64=$11.75/qt. Then I'll have plenty of castor left over for the next cycle, dropping the price more.

I do want to try mixing the high nitro stuff with straight methanol and castor, just to see how the Norvels/APs behave, and then on my Cox engines.

Granted, the other way keeps Brodak in business, and keeps you in fresh, consistently mixed fuel now. That is a guaranteed fuel lot!

I won't claim my way is best, but it sure feels good on my wallet. I have more Cox engines than money, so if I smoke an engine...well, it is a hobby. We are supposed to have fun and experiment right?

Fredvon4 · « **Reply #23 on:** August 24, 2019, 11:58:30 AM »

Randy... yes sir ...as stated in my small book of a post...I acknowledge your work and believed it.. I replicated your method and the local $17 per gallon stuff with %17 oil label and no way to know S/C ratios I assume mostly synth and did YOUR test...close to 13% oil was left after boil off...you have usually said they are typically 14%+/- so I confirmed, in my mind, that you know what the hell you are talking about....Now I do NOT boil down== I just assume 12%~14% total oil and blend from there

BTW I doubt any engine sport engine gives a tinker's damn if the N is 10% or 12 % or even 32%~35% or the oil is 19% ~ 22% or 24%~28%

Emphasis SPORT engine... MY $400+ Nelsons get Riches brew ONLY...If I owned any PA or Jett big buck engines, I might still blend, but only using raw components and NOT augment/morph Car/Boat/Helo blends

On hand raw:
1 gallon Torco Vitamin N 99% pure in opaque jug
2 Gallon Methanol
Most every typical Klotz synth and synth Casor blends in 1 quart jugs
2 Quarts Sig Castor
1 Quart UCON LB 625 synth
1 Pint Aero One additive ( I use in every blend just cus Randy said so)

I do not fly any more...health
BUT I love fussing and tinkering with engines and enter some in Tach Race competitions....only won once but still fun with glow engines.....

Casey · « **Reply #24 on:** September 03, 2019, 09:15:06 AM »

Thanks guys for your input