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Author Topic: Glo plugs keep popping  (Read 7720 times)

Offline phil myers

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Glo plugs keep popping
« on: September 03, 2014, 03:43:19 PM »
Hi All, the last three flying sessions, my Merco 35 has popped a plug. I'm using hot plugs with 5% nitro and 23% oil. True to say, I could maybe do with a little more oil, but I use the same fuel and plugs in both my OS 35s with no problems . Interestingly, the muffler has come away twice but, I put this down to the pissy little 8BA screws holding it together. Could it be a vibration issue causing the plugs to blow or something else? Help!

 Regards Phil

Offline RknRusty

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Re: Glo plugs keep popping
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2014, 04:03:50 PM »
Too much compression? I think hot plugs are more fragile and that could stress them out.
Rusty
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Online Dave_Trible

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Re: Glo plugs keep popping
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2014, 05:00:27 PM »
Rusty might be on the right track about hot plugs.  The platinum is a finer wire.  I'm partial to Glow Devils from McDaniel RC on line and use the RC idle bar.  I think the bar may shield the coil a bit.  If they'll stand up to the back pressure of my .76s they'll stand up to your Merco.  And yes get that oil up to 28%.

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Offline Balsa Butcher

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Re: Glo plugs keep popping
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2014, 05:21:54 PM »
Alternate Theory: It's a Merco...is it self destructing and making metal? If so the chips/flakes may be getting into the plug coils and shorting it out. I had a Merco 35 once, this happened. Really like my Merco 61's though. 8)
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Offline phil myers

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Re: Glo plugs keep popping
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2014, 05:41:33 PM »
Thanks for the replies fellas.. I don't know if I should get some idle bar plugs or throw the Merco in the bin! The motor runs very well, I've tached it doing 12000 rpm with an M.A 10x6 and it will do a 4 2 break. Yeah, I'll see if I can get the plugs and hope BB is wrong!
Thanks again Phil

Online Bill Hummel

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Re: Glo plugs keep popping
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2014, 05:55:42 PM »
Might be something as simple as adding a head shim, to reduce compression just a bit...couple thousandths should do it? 
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Offline RknRusty

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Re: Glo plugs keep popping
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2014, 06:50:23 PM »
...is it self destructing and making metal?...
Yes, that too. Is the exhaust goo clean? A loose mounting bolt can even lead to this kind of trouble.
Rusty
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Glo plugs keep popping
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2014, 07:56:41 PM »
...is it self destructing and making metal? 

Little metal particles cause plug filaments to break.  I don't know the mechanism, but they do it.
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Online Dan McEntee

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Re: Glo plugs keep popping
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2014, 08:00:21 PM »
  Define "popping plugs"?? To me that sounds like blowing the center post and insulator out, which I have seen happen on high performance engines. I think I have had it happen maybe once in my lifetime.
   Or are they just "going bad"?? What brand of glow plug? I have seen guys go through a whole hand full of Fox glow plugs on a Sunday afternoon. I'm with Dave Trible, I used Glow Devil R/C longs, but I think a hot plug has a larger chamber that the filiment sits in and has a longer wire, and tighter coil. A glow plug glows because of the catalytic reaction between the alcohol in the fuel and the wire in the glow plug. A larger chamber means more alcohol, and more wire means more or a reaction and more heat. They could be getting brittle because of too much juice when starting also.
   Let us know what brand and such. Take a close look at a used one under the strongest magnifying glass you can find and see what it tells you.
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Offline Andrew Tinsley

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Re: Glo plugs keep popping
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2014, 12:36:23 AM »
If you are going to toss the Merco, then make sure you toss it in my direction!

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Offline phil myers

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Re: Glo plugs keep popping
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2014, 01:18:33 AM »
The plugs I'm using are os no.8 and an Enya, I forget the number. I binned the dead plugs so I can't check them. By 'popping' I just mean they're dead as in, no longer glowing. Ok Andrew, get ready to catch!
Phil

Offline Chris Wilson

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Re: Glo plugs keep popping
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2014, 05:59:16 AM »
Might be something as simple as adding a head shim, to reduce compression just a bit...couple thousandths should do it? 

Hmm, since the original head shim is a fibre ring and eminently crushable its best to use alloy Fox 35 ones - that and I wonder if the reach on the plug is too long?
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Offline phil myers

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Re: Glo plugs keep popping
« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2014, 11:14:26 AM »
Chris, I've just removed the head and, well, err, there doesn't appear to be a gasket or a shim? If this is the problem, and hopefully someone will let me know, I will initiate my defence, ie I don't know much but I'm keen to learn!
Phil

Offline phil myers

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Re: Glo plugs keep popping
« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2014, 12:41:52 PM »
On further inspection of the head, I can see very small metallic flakes..oh dear oh dear, is this motor doomed? After all the time and effort getting a muffler sorted for this engine. It was given to me recently as an unwanted item..I'm beginning to see why.
Phil

Offline Jim Kraft

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Re: Glo plugs keep popping
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2014, 02:41:31 PM »
Metal flakes are common to an engine that is not broken in yet. Clean the engine good, add a .010" head shim, and try again.
Jim Kraft

Offline Balsa Butcher

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Re: Glo plugs keep popping
« Reply #15 on: September 04, 2014, 03:48:32 PM »
...and when you try it again, don't repeat the 12,000 rpm with a 10x6 prop experiment. For a Merco 35, that's just wrong. From a stunt perspective it proves nothing and may have been a factor in the metallic flake production.  8)
« Last Edit: September 04, 2014, 05:35:02 PM by Balsa Butcher »
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Offline phil myers

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Re: Glo plugs keep popping
« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2014, 04:22:00 PM »
Point taken BB.. one other thing,maybe this is a dumb question, should there be a head gasket?  Thanks

Offline Balsa Butcher

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Re: Glo plugs keep popping
« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2014, 05:30:40 PM »
Very likely there would have been at least one. Regardless, adding one may solve the plug issue. I'd try it. 8)
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Offline Chris Wilson

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Re: Glo plugs keep popping
« Reply #18 on: September 04, 2014, 05:59:15 PM »
Chris, I've just removed the head and, well, err, there doesn't appear to be a gasket or a shim? If this is the problem, and hopefully someone will let me know, I will initiate my defence, ie I don't know much but I'm keen to learn!
Phil
There is no orange fibre ring stuck in the head?
No metallic shim either?

Oh dear, then perhaps you are ramming the baffle up against its recess in the head and turning your engine into a concrete mixer.

My Merco 35 has a Randy Smith supplied Fox 35 shim in place - but I am no Merco expert so perhaps with nitro you may need two of them.
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Offline RknRusty

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Re: Glo plugs keep popping
« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2014, 09:36:37 PM »
I made some workable aluminum .015" shims out of a sheet of K&S aluminum with a compass with an exacto blade affixed to it. They were for my Thunder Tiger 25 and worked great,
Rusty
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Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Glo plugs keep popping
« Reply #20 on: September 04, 2014, 10:42:17 PM »
No gouging on the backplate from the crankpin? Excessive endplay can do that. I haven't ever had a real Merco (got a RM .40), so I don't know how their prop driver works, but maybe you could add a shim, or maybe that's not the problem. If it's a compression problem, I'd certainly vote for an aluminum gasket (or two). Would there be a gasket under the cylinder fins? I know the fins slip over the cylinder liner, so if there was supposed to be one, and it's gone missing, then the compression could be even higher. I think you need to talk to Ian Russell or that Andrew Tinsley fella.  y1 Steve
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Offline phil myers

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Re: Glo plugs keep popping
« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2014, 05:16:18 AM »
Thankyou for all the interesting and helpful replies. Its much appreciated.
Phil

Offline RandySmith

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Re: Glo plugs keep popping
« Reply #22 on: September 05, 2014, 04:48:16 PM »
Thankyou for all the interesting and helpful replies. Its much appreciated.
Phil

Phil

Along with needing a head shim, make sure the glo plug has a gasket, and I have seen this before with people using electric starters, do not do that with many plain bearing engines, you  can  drive the rod and/or  the crankpin into the backplate and make many metal flecks that will damage the engine and can cause plug uh ohs

Randy

Offline phil myers

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Re: Glo plugs keep popping
« Reply #23 on: September 06, 2014, 03:15:17 AM »
Thanks for the tip Randy, yes I have got a gasket under the plug. I didn't know the problem with electric starters, tho' I don't use them much.
Phil

Offline Brian Hampton

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Re: Glo plugs keep popping
« Reply #24 on: September 06, 2014, 04:30:52 PM »
The Mercos don't have a steel thrust shim between the crankcase and prop driver, mainly because electric starters weren't around back then :). The forward end of the crankshaft is splined and the (drilled) prop driver is then pressed over the splines at the factory.

Offline Andrew Tinsley

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Re: Glo plugs keep popping
« Reply #25 on: September 08, 2014, 07:25:22 AM »
Steve suggested that I put in my two cents worth. Well I have run lots of 29 and 35 Mercos over the years and they are good stunt engines. They have a horrible sort of red fibre  gasket between the head and the barrel. I don't know quite how thick it is, because you always seem to destroy it if you take it apart. My guess is that it is at least 30 thou thick. I got some grey gasket material from an auto shop in Cambridge Ma. It certainly works well, but it is probably a little thicker than the original.
Much better that you use some thick aluminium gaskets and see what is the best thickness for your engine and application. I think that the gaskets for the Fox 35 and or the OS Max S do fit, but please check on that, as I am not 100% sure on this. As far as metal bits flying around the engine, there are two possibilities. The first is that the piston baffle is hitting the head. I would think this a little unlikely. The second possibility is that when the first plug failed the wire broke up and that, I think, is the source of your problems. The bits are not all ejected through the exhaust. You change plugs and bingo, one of these pieces clouts the element and another plug ruined, with more bits of plug wire flying about. You carry on changing plugs and then getting a failure.
I had this very same problem years ago, but this time with an Enya engine. The plug blowing stopped when I took the engine to pieces and gave it a thorough cleaning. I even found some metal that was stuck to the top of the piston! Just give your engine a thorough strip down and clean. That should stop the problem.
Sounds as if Balsa Butcher doesn't like Mercos. The very early Orange head versions together with the more common red head variety are good 4-2-4 stunt engines of the old style. As good as anything in the US at the time. The Black head versions can be problematical. I think these were produced by another firm (Forrest Engineering?). These can have tight P/Ls and can wear rapidly. The firm seems to have used different metallurgy over time and some at least are extremely good. Others can be like Enyas and need a long break in. Hope this helps,

Andrew.
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Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Glo plugs keep popping
« Reply #26 on: September 08, 2014, 01:32:02 PM »
The only engine I ever had that blew glowplugs every run was a K&B Series '61 .35. The (pressed in) crankpin was working its way out of the crank and into the backplate. A nasty POS, that one.  '' Steve
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Offline phil myers

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Re: Glo plugs keep popping
« Reply #27 on: September 08, 2014, 03:47:52 PM »
Andrew, thanks for your thoughts on this issue, the little bits of metal that I did find on removal of the head were tiny flakes, ie, flat in shape and very small, like a grain of salt size but flat. And with ref: to what Steve mentioned, I took the back plate off and found some scrape marks on the plate. Now, I've never stripped an engine before, Been model flying  5 years now, and this will be my first strip! Woo Hoo! I'm eager to do this perhaps with a few pointers from you chaps on here as I go along... I will have the crank pin looked at by someone in my club, but a strip down and clean sounds like a 'must'. I hope to start this at the weekend ( I also have a septic tank to pressure wash but thats another story!) but will come back here, if thats ok,  when I need advice. The first thing that has me puzzled is how do I remove the piston?  By the way, this was a 'Blackhead' but the enamel is long gone, The head fins are finished off square as opposed to being slightly rounded off as with the earlier? orange head. I'm also having a new venturi and nva made as this engine is an  r/c type. I would like to save this motor as Its seems perfect in my Flite Streak (when its not burning plugs). I have a feeling 'I'll be back' to coin an Arnie phrase.. Thanks Phil

Offline Chris Wilson

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Re: Glo plugs keep popping
« Reply #28 on: September 08, 2014, 07:08:46 PM »
A new back-plate gasket would be good also in preventing metal contact between the rod and the back-plate.

And I did not know that the original fiber gasket was as thick as that Andrew! Using metal ones should result in a better heat transfer too making the engine run a tad cooler.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2014, 07:38:22 PM by Chris Wilson »
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Offline Andrew Tinsley

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Re: Glo plugs keep popping
« Reply #29 on: September 09, 2014, 03:37:44 AM »
Hello Chris,
I know that 30 thou sounds very thick, but have you ever got one off? I stand to be corrected because it is a long time since I had a gasket off, but I remember being amazed how thick the gasket was. I will ask on Barton Forum, I am sure there are folks around who will know!
Back to the metal bits problem! I am a bit embarrassed to have forgotten the crank pin rubbing on the back plate. A good idea to put in a thick gasket at this point. Better still, if there is much fore and aft play in the crank shaft, then I would be tempted to put in a thrust washer behind the drive plate.

Andrew.
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Offline Chris Wilson

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Re: Glo plugs keep popping
« Reply #30 on: September 09, 2014, 04:37:26 PM »
Hello Chris,
I know that 30 thou sounds very thick, but have you ever got one off? I stand to be corrected because it is a long time since I had a gasket off, but I remember being amazed how thick the gasket was. I will ask on Barton Forum, I am sure there are folks around who will know!
Back to the metal bits problem! I am a bit embarrassed to have forgotten the crank pin rubbing on the back plate. A good idea to put in a thick gasket at this point. Better still, if there is much fore and aft play in the crank shaft, then I would be tempted to put in a thrust washer behind the drive plate.

Andrew.
Hi mate,
 as I posted over at Barton, yes I have removed an original gasket in "onion ring" layers with a flat bladed jewelers screw driver and it was in no fit state to be measured for any accuracy after removal.

But it did resemble the thickness of a common fiber sump plug washer and they can be up to 2mm (80 thousands of an inch?)

My best guess is that the engine was made with a zero deck height so the piston crown may be kissing the heads inset perimeter 'lips' (either side of the baffle slot)  if you are not using any shim spacers and the wear point I would be looking at would be these tulip shaped 'lips'.

Some of the Merco heads can appear a bit rough around this area due to the casting becoming very thin and damage may go unseen unless looked for.

Looking back I doubt now that the baffle itself would ever collide with the head as it has more than generous clearance.
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Offline Andrew Tinsley

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Re: Glo plugs keep popping
« Reply #31 on: September 10, 2014, 03:38:11 AM »
Hi Chris,
I took a look at one of my old Redheads that needs some P/L work doing, The head gasket was just as I remembered. It peels off layer by layer. I think I will stick to my 30 thou estimate or even up it a bit!
You are quite right about the baffle being an unlikely customer for coming together with the head. However we now know that it was bits of alloy from the backplate. So it looks highly unlikely that I will be the recipient of another Merco!

Regards,

Andrew.
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Offline Chris Wilson

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Re: Glo plugs keep popping
« Reply #32 on: September 10, 2014, 06:30:21 AM »
However we now know that it was bits of alloy from the backplate.

Are we so certain that the back plate is the culprit here?

I mean I have seen many lightly swirl patterned back plates before that do not show any signs of metal flakes anywhere in the engine.

Its tempting to pull the head off my old red head, take the shim out and see if the head lifts from piston collision.
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 Nothing in life is so exhilarating as to be shot at without result.  It's not enough that we do our best; sometimes we have to do what's required

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Glo plugs keep popping
« Reply #33 on: September 10, 2014, 03:23:35 PM »
If the head was installed backwards, then I'm sure the baffle would contact the head. With the head fins apparently altered, all bets are off on the engine's virginity...meaning that you don't assume it was put back together correctly! Consult with your clubmates about the direction the rod goes in, because that may make a difference, and maybe it's backwards. 

One thing to remember on re-assembly is that the baffle goes on the bypass side, along with the lower of the two ports in the cylinder walls...the higher is the exhaust.  H^^ Steve

PS: Good fun with the septic tank!
"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Offline phil myers

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Re: Glo plugs keep popping
« Reply #34 on: September 10, 2014, 04:33:06 PM »
Am I right in thinking the baffle is the 'bit that sticks up on the top of the piston head? If so it does align with the recess in the head.. I will check on the rod Steve as you suggest. I saw a video on youtube someone making gaskets for model engines using aluminium 'tape' (paper?) Looks like the sticky back stuff you make letters out of, It looks easy. Ididn't know how to bring  up the video on here to show you. I have some high heat orange coloured  gasket paste, I think its made in the USA, comes in a gold coloured tube. I'm guessing thats a no, no!? The fins underneath the head (tulips?) have 1 or2  tiny chips out of the sharp edges, Sorry I'm not using the right jargon, but I hope you get the idea of what I mean.. apparently this was a black head at one time, tho there is no sign of the black enamel anywhere. I've just got my pressure washer fixed so the 'other job ' is the one my dearely beloved is asking very politely, to GET DONE NOW!
Phil

Offline RknRusty

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Re: Glo plugs keep popping
« Reply #35 on: September 11, 2014, 02:18:04 AM »
I found the video.
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Offline phil myers

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Re: Glo plugs keep popping
« Reply #36 on: September 11, 2014, 01:27:26 PM »
Well done Rusty, You'll have to teach me how you do that one day!
Phil

Offline RknRusty

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Re: Glo plugs keep popping
« Reply #37 on: September 12, 2014, 12:12:03 AM »
Thanks, but I can't take credit Phil. That's not me, I just searched Youtube to see if I could find the video you mentioned.
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Offline phil myers

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Re: Glo plugs keep popping
« Reply #38 on: September 12, 2014, 01:41:50 AM »
Rusty, Iwas impressed that you were able to bring up the video onto SH. I don't know how its done. Phil

Offline RknRusty

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Re: Glo plugs keep popping
« Reply #39 on: September 12, 2014, 08:52:53 AM »
Rusty, I was impressed that you were able to bring up the video onto SH. I don't know how its done. Phil
Oh. Duh! I get it.
Youtube recently changed the video sharing look, so I'll get back to you via PM with a screen shot of what to look for. For now, you can also just copy the URL straight out of your browser's address bar and paste into your message. Some forums will make a video window like the one above. Most just show is as a hyperlink, but it works just fine that way too. I'll get back to you later with the better way.
Rusty
DON'T PANIC!
Rusty Knowlton
... and never Ever think about how good you are at something...
while you're doing it!

Jackson Flyers Association (a.k.a. The Wildcat Rangers(C/L))- Fort Jackson, SC
Metrolina Control Line Society (MCLS) - Huntersville, NC - The Carolina Gang
Congaree Flyers - Gaston, SC -  http://www.congareeflyer.com
www.coxengineforum.com

Offline phil myers

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Re: Glo plugs keep popping
« Reply #40 on: September 29, 2014, 10:05:02 AM »
Hi All, thought some may like an update to this problem. Sorry I can't give a definitive answer to the problem, but I can at least list the things done. All I know is one of these changes has cured the issue of plugs popping....

1. stripped and cleaned engine in petrol (Couldn't get the crankshaft out tho')
2. Added new backplate gasket leaving old in situ (there was some scoring marks on backplate, possibly from the use of an electric starter)
3. Replaced glo plug with short reach Medium
4. Filed down the flanges inside the head (these very fine flanges did have some irregularity/chipping to their edges)




 I did try and make a head shim using 0.5 tinplate which frankly, was a disaster, anyway I did one static run and 4 flights yesterday and all was hunky dory!  Thanks to all who gave there veiws . Phil

Offline phil myers

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Re: Glo plugs keep popping
« Reply #41 on: September 29, 2014, 10:19:45 AM »
oops! forgot to say the image of the head shows where I filed down the edges to the flanges, and I also meant to post a pic of the Flitestreak the Merco is in. Hopefully its here. I was lucky to get this well finished model from a flying buddy so I can't claim any credit for this one! If only...

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: Glo plugs keep popping
« Reply #42 on: September 29, 2014, 06:25:37 PM »
Phil,
From the list you gave I really think the #2 was the culprit. Aluminum shavings will kill the plug. There was a little material on the head (on the upper edge of the trumpet) that might be a clue. You might look at one of the plugs that failed under a magnifying glass and see if there is any very small pieces of trash (most likely they would be Aluminum). Glad you solved it.

Best,      DennisT


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