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Author Topic: General fuel for LA's  (Read 4444 times)

Offline Allen Eshleman

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General fuel for LA's
« on: March 25, 2021, 01:01:43 PM »
I am aware that 5, 7 1/2 and 10 percent nitro with 11% castor and 11% synthetic oils have become the standards for LA 25's, 40's and 46's and FP 20's, 25's and 40's and a host of other engines (Magnums).  I want some more fuel to take me through this summer.  I am accustomed to using 5% nitro in cooler weather - under 70 degrees and 10% when it gets warmer than that.  Last year I was able to buy 7 1/2 nitro.  I am thinking of ordering or traveling to get more fuel, maybe for several people.  If I were to order only one of these different per cent mixtures, what is the most generally used per cent of nitro with these engines?
 

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: General fuel for LA's
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2021, 04:47:04 PM »
  I tend to use SIG champion 10% year round here in Missouri. If for some strange reason I run out I have been using Omega 10% with a few ounces of castor added t get the oil content up. On an OS LA, FP type engine you could probably use it right out of the jug with no extra oil and I have done that also. There is usually a good coating of goo on the airplane after flying and I think the factory claims 18% total oil for that mix.  I have used their 5% nitro also when I didn't have any other 5% fuel on hand also.
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Offline Allen Eshleman

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Re: General fuel for LA's
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2021, 07:39:57 PM »
It seems like I see more 10% nitro fuel being used than the 5% and 7.5%.

Offline Peter in Fairfax, VA

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Re: General fuel for LA's
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2021, 10:13:36 PM »
I'd run Sig Champion 5% if I could get it.  Fuel has become very difficult to buy in my area.  I have a couple of gallons of PowerMaster 5%.  Will probably add about 4 or 6 oz castor per gallon.  I practice every week, burning about a quart a week.

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: General fuel for LA's
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2021, 10:40:02 PM »
   Availability and price are certainly a consideration. That is why I mention the Morgen fuels, specifically their Omega. Most shops carry it and they may even ship it. I have never had to look into that. I run mostly sig because of the several different kinds of engines I run and can use that same fuel. The Omega could do the same thing, I would just have to doctor it. Use the 5% if you are happy with the performance of it. It would/t take much nitro to spike it up to 7.5% or higher if needed. 5% is a bit cheaper also. Nothing wrong with that at all, it's all in what you want out of your engine and airplanes. The only way to know that is to fly and burn fuel!
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Offline Dave Hull

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Re: General fuel for LA's
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2021, 12:28:36 AM »
The Morgan website datasheet states that Omega comes in 5, 10 and 15% nitro mixes, and they use 17% total oil. The oil package is 30% castor and 70% synthetic.

Dave

Offline frank mccune

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Re: General fuel for LA's
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2021, 11:16:19 AM »
    Hello Allen:

     Mix your own.  Alcohol is $5.00 per gallon in Carlisle and oil is not too expensive via the internet.  You know what you have if you do this!

      Frank

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: General fuel for LA's
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2021, 02:36:21 PM »
I'd run Sig Champion 5% if I could get it.  Fuel has become very difficult to buy in my area.  I have a couple of gallons of PowerMaster 5%.  Will probably add about 4 or 6 oz castor per gallon.  I practice every week, burning about a quart a week.

    For an LA or similar, I am not sure why you would want to add that much castor to it. I would expect it to varnish up much more quickly. I won the NATS running Powermaster 10% (the regular RC sport fuel) straight out of the can. I now carry a quart of low-viscosity *synthetic* oil to doctor it to adjust the way it runs in the corners, essnetially turning it from RC Sport Fuel to the (discontinued) RO-Jett fuel, since the oil content was the only difference.

     Brett

Offline Allen Eshleman

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Re: General fuel for LA's
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2021, 04:17:22 PM »
 "Mix your own.  Alcohol is $5.00 per gallon in Carlisle and oil is not too expensive via the internet.  You know what you have if you do this!"

      Frank


Are you mixing your own Frank?

Offline Peter in Fairfax, VA

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Re: General fuel for LA's
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2021, 10:15:59 PM »
Brett,

Thanks for the reality check.  I have had issues with my LA 46s accumulating a lot of varnish.  So much they squeak.  While I have learned how to crock pot it off, I should probably add Klotz instead.

Peter

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: General fuel for LA's
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2021, 07:31:26 AM »
Brett,

Thanks for the reality check.  I have had issues with my LA 46s accumulating a lot of varnish.  So much they squeak.  While I have learned how to crock pot it off, I should probably add Klotz instead.

Peter

     Hi Peter;
     I hope I am remembering this correctly, and Brett may know more, but I think it was Dave Fitzgerald or some one else out west that mentioned on the forums that if you have an engine that is starting to varnish up, simply put a smaller, flatter prop on the engine and run some synthetic oil based fuel through it at a peaked out 2 stroke run for a few tanks full.  The synthetic  oil, heat and engine speed clear out the varnish and it pukes it out the exhaust. When it starts  to feel better, go back t the prop and fuel you were using, but maybe back off on the oil a bit. I have only seen this done in person with a local flying buddy that had a Tower .40 that varnished up and we tried that trick and it seemed to work. I think we used a 9-4 or 9-5. I think the worst varnishing was in the main bushing and it took a few extra runs because that doesn't get as hot, or at least that is what I was guessing at the time. You don't want to abuse the engine, just get it to a peak RPM, and leave the muffler off just like you were breaking the engine in.. Saves you the time of taking the engine out of the model.
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Offline frank mccune

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Re: General fuel for LA's
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2021, 09:46:22 AM »
     Hi Allen:

     Yes, I mix my own fuel.  I purchase my synthetic oil from S&W fuels and pick it up at the swap and trade affair in March.  I purchase my c.o. from The Apothecary on line.  It cost $16.00 delivered the last time that I purchased a supply.  Prior to the CoVid 19 shutdown, I was obtaining alky for $3.00 per gallon from a person who runs a race car.

      I have been mixing fuel since 1973 and have had no problems.  I have had a bad experience with fuel mixed by another person.  No oil was in the mix!  If you  mix your own fuel, go metric!  It is so much easier!

       Looking forward to seeing you at the field.

       Frank

Offline Allen Eshleman

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Re: General fuel for LA's
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2021, 11:26:37 AM »
Hi Frank,

Are you guys flying yet.  If so, hope to see you soon.


Offline frank mccune

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Re: General fuel for LA's
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2021, 03:39:50 PM »
       Hi Allen:

       Yes, we are flying again.  Send me your phone number

        Frank

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: General fuel for LA's
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2021, 07:45:37 PM »
     Hi Peter;
     I hope I am remembering this correctly, and Brett may know more, but I think it was Dave Fitzgerald or some one else out west that mentioned on the forums that if you have an engine that is starting to varnish up, simply put a smaller, flatter prop on the engine and run some synthetic oil based fuel through it at a peaked out 2 stroke run for a few tanks full.

     I don't know who for sure you were referring to, but I never needed that for plain-bearing engines, I just switch fuel and it will work itself out in a few dozen flights.

     For an ST46 run on castor, we did do something like you describe, run it on mostly-synthetic fuel on a 9-4 to loosen up the ring in the groove. Yet another reason to not run ringed engines - which is not a problem because all the current competitive engines are AAC or ABC.

      I think it is likely to have the opposite effect on slug-piston engines, baking whatever castor is in there on hard (since the varnish of concern is right there on the liner wall, instead of down in the ring groove). Better to avoid it in the first place, of course.

      Brett

Offline frank mccune

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Re: General fuel for LA's
« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2021, 02:30:44 PM »

   
     Hello Walter:

     Good to see your reply re. the Avenger oil.  I always had my doubts about a relabeled product.  The price was good an mixed 50-50 with castor oil, I thought that I was safe using it for sport flying.  However, Brian Gardner suggested to use NO castor in his p&c. I have been using only Avenger oil in s p&c at 22%.  I think that there is a gallon of Klotz in my future

     I have used fuel with only Klotz as a lube with no problems for sport flying but that was two score years ago. Lol

     Stay well,

     Frank

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Re: General fuel for LA's
« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2021, 03:38:23 PM »
If that's the S&W Avenger synthetic you'd do much better with Klotz KL200 Original Techniplate. I used S&W fuel with half castor/half Avenger oil in a rat race engine and the big end of the rod crapped out in short order. 

Motorman 8)
Yeah, It's not cool to bad mouth peoples products when you arbitrarily blame their product for something that went wrong with your particular engine. It wasn't the Avenger synthetic oil that caused your rod to go away, especially if you were running 50/50 with castor. All model engine synthetics are made from the same base stock (Polyalkylene Glycol Base) with minor if any, additive differences (like dye, scent, anti corrosion additive, etc.and minor differences in viscosity. All that hype you read about on the oil discussion threads is just that; Hype. Even the high end oil companies who make Ester base oils for all their other "High Performance" oils use Polyalkylene Glycol Base for their "Model engine oils like Motul's Micro 2T. Why? because it works and Ester base oils do not mix well with Methanol with the exception of Maxima 927 which is castor base fortified with "ester synthetics" (rumor says 60% castor/40% synthetic) and they don't recommend mixing it with other synthetic oils.
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Re: General fuel for LA's
« Reply #17 on: March 29, 2021, 01:06:41 AM »
The truth's not always cool. I've been racing two strokes for 57 years I know a lubrication failure when I see it. Engine was running fine on my mix. If you think all oils are the same I don't know what to tell you.

Motorman 8)
Yeah, I'm aware that you know everything about everything. I was just informing folks who actually want to learn something. Since you didn't state what percentage oil was in the fuel or what kind of rod was in the engine your statement is irrelevant. Big end rod failures in model engine two strokes are almost NEVER "Actual lubrication failures". They fail because of; detonation, fit too tight, fit too loose, misalignment on crank pin or wrist pin, over rev for strength of rod, poor bushing fit or inferior rod material. At 22% in an LA 46, with or without castor he's never going to have an oil related failure.
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Offline Christian Chacha

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Re: General fuel for LA's
« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2021, 07:30:53 AM »
Do I need to run castor oil at all? I use 5 or 10 percent cool power with 17 percent oil. I have added castor oil to that fuel and I just hate that baked on oil on my engines.

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: General fuel for LA's
« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2021, 02:13:02 PM »
Do I need to run castor oil at all? I use 5 or 10 percent cool power with 17 percent oil. I have added castor oil to that fuel and I just hate that baked on oil on my engines.

    Cool Power is a full synthetic. You could also add more synthetic instead of castor if you know it will blend with the oil that Morgan is using. Just get the total oil up to the 20% range. Even if you are adding castor, you should not see that much build up on the engine if you are only adding a few ounces. I have run Morgan's Omega straight from the just in both 5 and 10% nitro with no problems, but a little extra oil helps keep things cool at the constant higher RPMs that a C/L model uses over an R/C version that is on and off the gas frequently. A lot of guys like to get the oil content up to 22 and sometimes 25% but I don't think that is necessary from what I have seen in what I run. Just inspect your engines closely and frequently and adjust according to what you see.
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Offline Dwayne Donnelly

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Re: General fuel for LA's
« Reply #20 on: May 10, 2021, 08:30:35 PM »
Omega pink 10% spiked with 4 oz. of castor per gallon.
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Re: General fuel for LA's
« Reply #21 on: May 11, 2021, 12:23:33 PM »
Omega pink 10% spiked with 4 oz. of castor per gallon.
At $55.00/Gallon (new price) I don't know why anybody would be buying Morgan Fuels. Bye the way Omega is 17% total oil so adding 4 Oz to a gallon =19.5% oil ( .17 x 128=21.76 + 4=25.76, 25.76/132 =19.5) Probably fine for modern engines
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Offline Dwayne Donnelly

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Re: General fuel for LA's
« Reply #22 on: May 11, 2021, 03:48:17 PM »
At $55.00/Gallon (new price) I don't know why anybody would be buying Morgan Fuels. Bye the way Omega is 17% total oil so adding 4 Oz to a gallon =19.5% oil ( .17 x 128=21.76 + 4=25.76, 25.76/132 =19.5) Probably fine for modern engines

Wow  :o Still listed at 32.95 at Great Hobbies Canada.
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Online Steve Helmick

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Re: General fuel for LA's
« Reply #23 on: July 25, 2021, 11:36:46 AM »
It's been some years since I bought glow fuel, but around here, we seldom saw less than 10% nitro. My guess is that the R/C bods like the nitro for putting more heat into the glowplug and thus better idle. Us too, IMO.

If you need to mix homebrew fuel, it's easier to get reliably available YS/Saito 20/20 and base a homebrew on that, IMO. I'd probably mix a gallon of 0% nitro, 5%-10% castor/10% Klotz and mix that with the 20/20 to get what I need, or alternatively, mixing 0% nitro/15%-20% Klotz and then  add 2 oz of Randy's Aero-1 per gallon. It would be good to investigate which Klotz is used, since one is 20% castor and the other is castor free.

I was told this last weekend that I could get CL fuel from the Strom's hobby shop in Olympia, and that I should just drive down and get some. That'd be about 57 minutes drive time each direction according to Google Maps, but with our I-5 traffic being the way it is, I'd bet more like 1.5 hours...somewhere over $26 worth of gasoline to get there and back.
When I go south to a contest, or come back, it's always too early or too late for the shop to be open. More likely, I would stop in Beaverton or Eugene to buy glow fuel. Scott Riese at least used to be able to get the Beaverton shop to stock decent stunt fuel, but IDK what it was or is. It's also out of the way when heading to Albany (FF contests) or Roseburg (NWCLR). Eugene stocks SIG fuel, which I've run, but it isn't my favorite. Better than electrons, tho.  ;)

I like the metal cans that Powermaster and VP use/used, tho I do put it in a jug and use a ketchup pump to fill my tank. It makes me crazy to see guys sucking fuel out of an open jug into a syringe with a filter in the hose and then push the fuel back through the filter and into the tank! Please don't do that!  n1 Steve
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: General fuel for LA's
« Reply #24 on: July 25, 2021, 12:07:21 PM »
I like the metal cans that Powermaster and VP use/used, tho I do put it in a jug and use a ketchup pump to fill my tank. It makes me crazy to see guys sucking fuel out of an open jug into a syringe with a filter in the hose and then push the fuel back through the filter and into the tank! Please don't do that!  n1 Steve

    The ketchup pump sheds more debris than the open cans - that's why you have to use a huge automotive filter on the outlet.

  I very much prefer *cans*, much less prone to leaking, opaque, and easier to pack.

   Of course you shouldn't dip into the can, use proper fittings:

https://www.amainhobbies.com/dubro-kwik-fill-fuel-can-fitting-dub807/p-quqltqtqgzxxactz?msclkid=b1f4d072a8ec17af1048b08f00e95444&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=AH%20-%20Shopping%20PLA%20-%20INSTOCK%20-Desktop%20-%20Non-Brand&utm_term=4585513247923858&utm_content=Cars%20%26%20Trucks

     One-way flow, closed all the time, and the probe seals up air-tight. I don't recommend the brass version of it, it does not seal properly and corrodes away over time.

     Brett

Online Steve Helmick

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Re: General fuel for LA's
« Reply #25 on: July 25, 2021, 12:25:05 PM »
An R/C car filter works fine. I look for the ones with a conical nylon filter element, for increased surface area...some do and some don't. And I've yet to have any problem with the "ketchup" pump...I got mine from TAP Plastics, where they're intended to use on epoxy resin. Being nylon with no o-rings or neoprene parts, they work fine for me. Only "issue" is that I have to "prime" the pump once per flying session if I am trying for a full one ounce per stroke. Which I don't do, because I just fill the tank and suck out whatever excess I need to get down to ~ 6 minutes. I wonder if you got some fuel with weird castor oil and it wasn't the pump at all. Paul, Howard, Dan, and others up here in the PNW had no problems and used them for years and years. 

Danny Dirt used to use a small engine filter, but finding them that fit our medium-sized fuel hose isn't easy. I gave it up and went to the R/C car filter.  H^^ Steve
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Offline kevin king

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Re: General fuel for LA's
« Reply #26 on: August 11, 2021, 01:24:19 AM »
    Cool Power is a full synthetic. You could also add more synthetic instead of castor if you know it will blend with the oil that Morgan is using. Just get the total oil up to the 20% range. Even if you are adding castor, you should not see that much build up on the engine if you are only adding a few ounces. I have run Morgan's Omega straight from the just in both 5 and 10% nitro with no problems, but a little extra oil helps keep things cool at the constant higher RPMs that a C/L model uses over an R/C version that is on and off the gas frequently. A lot of guys like to get the oil content up to 22 and sometimes 25% but I don't think that is necessary from what I have seen in what I run. Just inspect your engines closely and frequently and adjust according to what you see.
    Type at you later,
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Hi Dan, i bought some Omega cool power 10% nitro and added 6.4 oz of castor oil to it. My calculations tell me that the total oil content is now 22%, which is what i want. Does that seem correct? Its for my RJ67. The 2nd concern was I read that Morgan measures their fuel by weight, not volume. Hopefully someone here can confirm that. I've contacted Morgan and waiting for a reply from them. Last but not least is I seem to remember the pink Omega fuel staining the paint on airplanes. Have you ever had this problem? Thanks. Kevin King.

Offline kevin king

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Re: General fuel for LA's
« Reply #27 on: August 11, 2021, 08:39:25 AM »
Update. Morgan Fuels has a 1-800 number on the fuel jug. I called and they said their fuel is measured   by volume. Ive read on here of someone doing evaporation tests on various fuels and the result was that  Morgan's numbers seem off. Just recently i was told by a software company "You cant upload DVDS to youtube unless you have our program, which is strange because ive done it many, many times without any extra software.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2021, 10:42:09 AM by kevin king »

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: General fuel for LA's
« Reply #28 on: August 11, 2021, 12:19:40 PM »
Hi Dan, i bought some Omega cool power 10% nitro and added 6.4 oz of castor oil to it. My calculations tell me that the total oil content is now 22%, which is what i want. Does that seem correct? Its for my RJ67. The 2nd concern was I read that Morgan measures their fuel by weight, not volume. Hopefully someone here can confirm that. I've contacted Morgan and waiting for a reply from them. Last but not least is I seem to remember the pink Omega fuel staining the paint on airplanes. Have you ever had this problem? Thanks. Kevin King.

   You need to keep the blends straight. There is the main company, Morgan Fuels, and they make Omega  ( the pink stuff that is a castor/synthetic blend) and they also make Cool Power which is the green stuff and is all synthetic.. I have never had any problems using either, and have never noticed any kind of staining from either fuel. You may be confusing the issue with Powermaster, when they were bought out by VP Fuels, and they started to tint their fuel purple, I think it was, and it would leave a stain on some finishes. I never had any issues with that fuel either.

    I have run much more Omega than Cool Power, primarily when I am low on SIG Champion. It depends on what engines I'm running it in on how much castor I add. Less for OS engines, and more for any ringed or iron piston/liner engines.

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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: General fuel for LA's
« Reply #29 on: August 11, 2021, 12:52:08 PM »
Hi Dan, i bought some Omega cool power 10% nitro and added 6.4 oz of castor oil to it. My calculations tell me that the total oil content is now 22%, which is what i want. Does that seem correct? Its for my RJ67. The 2nd concern was I read that Morgan measures their fuel by weight, not volume. Hopefully someone here can confirm that. I've contacted Morgan and waiting for a reply from them. Last but not least is I seem to remember the pink Omega fuel staining the paint on airplanes. Have you ever had this problem? Thanks. Kevin King.

   There has been occasional issues with staining from the dyes in fuel over the years. Most of them are dyed red/pink, and when I would still do business with Red Max I asked them to leave out the red dye because of staining. SIG is pretty dark but I never had a staining problem with it.

    The VP "purple dye" fiasco was only one and it wasn't nearly as bad as some of the red dyes other people used, even though it was extremely dark. I called VPs model fuel guy and he said that RC guys insisted on dyes for some reason. I asked them if they tested it for staining, and they said they did - but only on Monokote! I got a couple of cases without, later, they started using a light blue dye that wasn't much of an issue. All the fuel I have gotten recently is pale blue.

    Some dyes are worse than others, and I don't know anyone who has used enough Omega to tell if it will stain, long-term. People have told me the green is prone to staining, but that it is so pale green that they don't concern themselves with it.

     Brett
   

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: General fuel for LA's
« Reply #30 on: August 11, 2021, 03:46:11 PM »
On an OS LA, FP type engine you could probably use it right out of the jug with no extra oil...

I know that the OS 20FP came in an iron/steel piston/sleeve combo, and then later as ABC or AAC.  If you've got an iron/steel engine you probably want a generous amount of castor in there.
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Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: General fuel for LA's
« Reply #31 on: August 11, 2021, 04:49:59 PM »
I know that the OS 20FP came in an iron/steel piston/sleeve combo, and then later as ABC or AAC.  If you've got an iron/steel engine you probably want a generous amount of castor in there.

      That's true but .20FP's are not that common, maybe even considered hard to find, and then the iron P&L versions even more so. On some of these smaller engines, is the concern about oil in total content or in viscosity of the oil, as it has been discussed. That's the part where you eyes and brain come into play to observe and evaluate what's happening.
     Type at you later,
     Dan McEntee
AMA 28784
EAA  1038824
AMA 480405 (American Motorcyclist Association)

Offline Christopher Root

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Re: General fuel for LA's
« Reply #32 on: August 12, 2021, 04:28:09 PM »
If you're mixing your own fuel, where do you get your nitro?

Offline Jim Svitko

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Re: General fuel for LA's
« Reply #33 on: August 12, 2021, 06:46:09 PM »
If you're mixing your own fuel, where do you get your nitro?

Nitro availability depends on where you are, and a bit of luck.  I can get it from a fuels guy who supplies methanol and other components to auto performance shops and race tracks in my area.  This supplier is nice enough to sell me small quantities, maybe two gallons at a time.

You might inquire at auto performance shops in your area.  Buying on line would most likely be cost prohibitive due to haz mat fees.

The price varies considerably.  Two years ago, it was $25 a gallon.  Last time I bought some was maybe a year ago and it was $40 a gallon.

Offline Walter Hicks

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Re: General fuel for LA's
« Reply #34 on: August 12, 2021, 07:17:56 PM »
Kevin Ro Jett 67 does not like that much Castor. It would be better to use Synthetic as the Omega already has enough Castor in it. If the 67 runs ragged it is because of the fuel. Also It will gum it up due to the Castor.

Offline gene poremba

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Re: General fuel for LA's
« Reply #35 on: August 20, 2021, 05:08:04 AM »

 I just saw the question about the PINK Omega fuel possibly staining our models. I have run the 10 & 15% Omega fuel in my engines for the past several years and have not experienced any staining. Most of my models are butyrate dope finish. I have several tan and a few white planes that are now a few years old and there are no noticeable pink stains on them. I usually do a complete wipe down though after a days flying, so my results are based on not letting any fuel sit on the models for a really long period of time. Just thought i'd throw this out there....Gene


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