Author Topic: fuel mix question (Read 3284 times)

rich gorrill · « **on:** July 02, 2013, 12:59:56 PM »

My problem started when I ran out of Brodak 10% nitro 50-50 fuel. Guy in a local hobby shop says Omega 10% is just as good. I have an OS max 25 FP on my Flite Streak. Well It ran like crap. Couldn't get a 2-4 break and the motor seemed like it was running hot. I go to Morgan fuel web site and find out this stuff is 10% nitro but only 17% oil and it is 75 synthetic 25% castor. Now here is the good part I have 2 qts. of Brodak 5% nitro 29% castor that I have been using in a Fox 35. After reading Randy Smith's tips on engine set up and fuel he says the Fox can run better on a blend of syn. and castor. What would be a good mix of the Omega fuel with my 5%-29% brodak for use in the os max fp25 and the Fox 35. Brodak is currently out of stock on their 10% 50-50 fuel. I Would like to brew enough to hold me til I can get the proper fuel.

Thanks, Rich

guy in

Tim Wescott · « **Reply #1 on:** July 02, 2013, 01:14:52 PM »

You'd end up with 23% total oil, like the Brodak 50-50, but it'd be heavier on the castor oil.

Do we share local hobby shops? Mine uses the same logic: if it's on the shelf, it must be good!

That doesn't seem like enough oil for your Fox, but you could certainly try mixing it half and half for your FP 25.

I'd mix just a bit to try -- maybe even mix it in your fueler, if you've got a syringe, or a half cup of each into a spare fuel jug (which should be enough for two or three flights).

rich gorrill · « **Reply #2 on:** July 02, 2013, 01:25:49 PM »

Tim it was my fault for not asking him the oil% and the castor to synthetic ratio. Live and learn, thanks for the help.

RandySmith · « **Reply #3 on:** July 02, 2013, 01:41:48 PM »

Quote from: rich gorrill on July 02, 2013, 12:59:56 PM

My problem started when I ran out of Brodak 10% nitro 50-50 fuel. Guy in a local hobby shop says Omega 10% is just as good. I have an OS max 25 FP on my Flite Streak. Well It ran like crap. Couldn't get a 2-4 break and the motor seemed like it was running hot. I go to Morgan fuel web site and find out this stuff is 10% nitro but only 17% oil and it is 75 synthetic 25% castor. Now here is the good part I have 2 qts. of Brodak 5% nitro 29% castor that I have been using in a Fox 35. After reading Randy Smith's tips on engine set up and fuel he says the Fox can run better on a blend of syn. and castor. What would be a good mix of the Omega fuel with my 5%-29% brodak for use in the os max fp25 and the Fox 35. Brodak is currently out of stock on their 10% 50-50 fuel. I Would like to brew enough to hold me til I can get the proper fuel.

Thanks, Rich

Hi Rich

If your going to use the Omega or Cool Power in your FOX put 12.8 ounces of castor in it, If you want 10% then you will need to buy the 15% Omega or Coll Power, do not try to run the fuel as is.

Randy

guy in

Tim Wescott · « **Reply #4 on:** July 02, 2013, 02:35:58 PM »

Hey Randy:

Does the Omega with added castor work well? Because I've been thinking of doing just that, so I can buy fuel at my LHS.

It'd be nice to know that I'm doing something known to work, rather than sticking my neck out and experimenting.

RandySmith · « **Reply #5 on:** July 02, 2013, 02:48:51 PM »

Quote from: Tim Wescott on July 02, 2013, 02:35:58 PM

Hey Randy:

Does the Omega with added castor work well? Because I've been thinking of doing just that, so I can buy fuel at my LHS.

It'd be nice to know that I'm doing something known to work, rather than sticking my neck out and experimenting.

Hi Tim

I have several people that use Omega after adding oil to it, For the FOX they add 12.8 ounces, for other engines like ST 46, Aero Tigers, FP LA types they add about 8.5 ounces, seems to work OK when they do that. Caution I have had people wipeout a FOX 35 in 1 run on stock Omega or Cool Power. And you will want to buy higher nitro, since you will be diluting the fuel, and the fuel is made by weight measurements not volume. I have heard Morgan fuel are now making control line fuel with higher oil content
SIG does sell ,and will ship fuel to you, if that works out you may want to consider that approach too
Randy

rich gorrill · « **Reply #6 on:** July 02, 2013, 02:53:56 PM »

Randy you are right on Morgan fuel's web site they list fuel just for control line engines. I think they only sell it by the quart and there are no dealers near me to even order it from. I don't know what their minimum order is or their shipping charges to buy direct

Balsa Butcher · « **Reply #7 on:** July 02, 2013, 03:03:14 PM »

Most fuel suppliers sell by the quart to avoid haz-mat shipping charges. You can probably buy it by the case (4 gallons). If you have someone you fly with you may want to consider splitting a case with that person. You will have to pay Haz-mat and shipping charges but isn't spending money the best part of the hobby?

Reptoid · « **Reply #8 on:** July 02, 2013, 04:52:59 PM »

If you want to support your local hobby shop, you could ask him to order from powermaster (doesn't hurt to let him know you'd buy some minimun amount). They make GMA formula U/C fuel (22% oil 50/50 Castor/syn) in 5% or 10% nitro. One of our local shops carries it and sells it at a very reasonable price because U/C fliers asked for it. He also carries Sig Castor and Klotz in quarts for the same reason.

Jim Kraft · « **Reply #9 on:** July 02, 2013, 06:45:15 PM »

I buy castor by the gallon from Sig. There is no hazmat charge on it. I sometimes get Magnum fuel from the lhs which is 13% synthetic, and 5% castor. I buy 15% nitro and mix enough castor to run it what ever engine I am running at the time. Seems to work well for me and I don't pay the shipping and hazmat on the fuel. I still buy a case of fuel from Sig every so often for my Foxes and McCoys. The Magnum fuel comes in 5 qt. jugs.

rich gorrill · « **Reply #10 on:** July 03, 2013, 04:49:24 AM »

B.T.W. Randy, I am new to the forum, and just returning to control line flying, I would like to say thank you for the great engine tuning and set up tips. They have been very helpful to me after a 35 year hiatus from building and flying.

Rich

Paul Smith · « **Reply #11 on:** July 03, 2013, 06:03:44 AM »

I buy Ritch's Brew from Randy and Dickie Ritch of Texas. It's genuine model fuel made by genuine modelers.

These "new wave" fuels sold in hobby shops generally come in flashly colors to attract ARF and RTF owners who don't know or care anything about proper engine performance. I would not predict good results when you start out with a jug of known bad fuel and try to salvage it.

Brett Buck · « **Reply #12 on:** July 03, 2013, 09:11:09 AM »

Quote from: rich gorrill on July 02, 2013, 12:59:56 PM

My problem started when I ran out of Brodak 10% nitro 50-50 fuel. Guy in a local hobby shop says Omega 10% is just as good. I have an OS max 25 FP on my Flite Streak. Well It ran like crap. Couldn't get a 2-4 break and the motor seemed like it was running hot.

   I have had no fuel issues whatsoever with any of these sorts of engines and pretty much ran whatever was nearby and have found it extremely tolerant of fuel. I certainly wouldn't choose Omega if I had a choice but that is pretty close to what I have used with success. 8% w/17% oil with 25/75 castor synthetic was what was in the old pre-VP Powermaster. It ran fine in the 20/25FP and the 25LA (along with all the other similar engines), and my regular engine (RO-Jett 61 BSE) well enough to win the 06 NATs. When I was doing the earlier small-engine experiments I used a lot of Byron "10%" regular, which had about 14-15% oil total and that worked.

   A better question is why is your 25FP running in a 4-stroke to begin with. One of the beauties of these engines is that you can run them as originally intended, in a constant 2-stroke, backed off just enough to keep it from going over the top lean in the maneuvers at the end of the flight. If you are running in a 4-stroke it will definitely be much more touchy to just about everything and the RPM and thus power will be way down. Not that you need the full power of the 25FP to fly a Flite Streak but it will be more robust running in the 11000+ range in the air. Might want to consider the standard system - dead stock everything including muffler, and a 9-4 APC. That is not fussy on fuel.

   Otherwise, I would suggest just getting some name-brand fuel (Powermaster or SIG). Powermaster can be ordered through the hobby shop or Horizon, or directly if necessary. We were not able to get our normal fuel through Horizon, but called VP directly. We (David, Jim, and I) have been running Powermaster 10% "RO-Jett" in our Jett61, PA65, and PA75 with excellent results. You don't really need it for a 25FP but it works the same way, smoothing out the run even more. Standard Powermaster RC Sport fuel also works with slightly different characteristics in the large engines and is fine in the little ones.

   I might even try the RO-Jett fuel in the Fox but I would be prepared to wipe something out. If nothing else the high synthetic fraction will remove the varnish on older engines, which might remove the compression as well (as noted in Randy's pinned fuel post).

   Brett

Brett Buck · « **Reply #13 on:** July 03, 2013, 09:12:35 AM »

Quote from: Paul Smith on July 03, 2013, 06:03:44 AM

I buy Ritch's Brew from Randy and Dickie Ritch of Texas. It's genuine model fuel made by genuine modelers.

These "new wave" fuels sold in hobby shops generally come in flashly colors to attract ARF and RTF owners who don't know or care anything about proper engine performance. I would not predict good results when you start out with a jug of known bad fuel and try to salvage it.

I think a lot of it is geared towards RC Car kids, too. It sort of takes care of itself because most of the car runners don't use the low nitro contents so they don't even make 5 and 10 in many cases.

Brett

RogerGreene · « **Reply #14 on:** July 10, 2013, 07:55:41 PM »

My local hobby shop caters to the R/C groups here in Delaware. So I have a spread sheet that will tell you how much oil to add to those high nitro, low oil fuels.

Enjoy

Roger

RandySmith · « **Reply #15 on:** July 10, 2013, 08:58:19 PM »

Quote from: rich gorrill on July 03, 2013, 04:49:24 AM

B.T.W. Randy, I am new to the forum, and just returning to control line flying, I would like to say thank you for the great engine tuning and set up tips. They have been very helpful to me after a 35 year hiatus from building and flying.

Rich

Hi Rich

Thanks, I hope you are enjoying your return to CL flying and are having fun.
Also i hope you take advantage of all the benefits of this forum, and the knowledge of the people here

Regards
Randy

rich gorrill · « **Reply #16 on:** July 11, 2013, 12:30:38 PM »

Thank you to everyone for the help. I did mix a batch of fuel, 50% omega 10% and 50% brodak 5%nitro 29% oil. So far it ran great in the os max fp 25. I set the needle slightly rich, I don't own a tach., and the streak performed great.`Ran steady through the whole tank and didn't seem to overheat. Watch out beginner stunt, here I come. l.o.l. Next build will be a modified twister, hope to have it done in the fall, I'll start the build when the grandkids go back to school.

Duke.Johnson · « **Reply #17 on:** July 11, 2013, 12:47:28 PM »

I asked my LHS to carry Powermaster 10/22 and when he did, he found the R/C guys started buying it. He sells a ton of it now. We run our 25 FP and LA's with an APC 9-4 at about 10000 RPMs

Phil Bare · « **Reply #18 on:** July 11, 2013, 03:34:55 PM »

This is your best bet for fuel, they will mix what ever you want. Ship in quarts so there is no Haz Mat charges and no freight on some quantities.

<Fuel-Up With our REDMAX Fuel-Up & Save the GREEN Sale
4 Gallons in 16 Quart Cases
10% Nitro ------ $99.00---Save $50.00
30% Nitro ------ $129.00---Save $57.00
50% Nitro ------ $149.00---Save $81.00
Shipping Included to the Lower 48 States
Similar Savings on all Fuels
Call Now for Details
1-800-742-8484

< http://www.fhsoils.com/model.html >

Great people and easy to do business with.

RandySmith · « **Reply #19 on:** July 11, 2013, 03:52:35 PM »

Quote from: Phil Bare on July 11, 2013, 03:34:55 PM

This is your best bet for fuel, they will mix what ever you want. Ship in quarts so there is no Haz Mat charges and no freight on some quantities.

<Fuel-Up With our REDMAX Fuel-Up & Save the GREEN Sale
4 Gallons in 16 Quart Cases
10% Nitro ------ $99.00---Save $50.00
30% Nitro ------ $129.00---Save $57.00
50% Nitro ------ $149.00---Save $81.00
Shipping Included to the Lower 48 States
Similar Savings on all Fuels
Call Now for Details
1-800-742-8484

< http://www.fhsoils.com/model.html >

Great people and easy to do business with.

NOT your best bet on fuel. They really screwed up lots of CL flyers with their bad fuel years ago, And NO Castor at all, ONLY synthetic oil, and YOU will need to ask them these questions:
What is the oil percent by volume?
What is the oil used?
What oils are available form them?
Nitro percent by volume?
Will they mix castor and synth for you in their fuels?

They are very good people, I use to use fuel from Fred years ago before they messed it all up with only the oils they said they developed . Even I had to stop using their fuels

Randy

Phil Bare · « **Reply #20 on:** July 11, 2013, 05:59:46 PM »

Randy, I have been using their fuel for years and they have always mixed my 10% nitro, 25% castor with no problems what so ever.
I have even ordered 50% 50% nitro and methanol for mixing my own and never had any problems getting it.

Phil

RandySmith · « **Reply #21 on:** July 11, 2013, 08:05:38 PM »

Quote from: Phil Bare on July 11, 2013, 05:59:46 PM

Randy, I have been using their fuel for years and they have always mixed my 10% nitro, 25% castor with no problems what so ever.
I have even ordered 50% 50% nitro and methanol for mixing my own and never had any problems getting it.

Phil

Hi Phil

Thats great I am happy for you, I assume they will not mind answering the questions I posted above then.
Like I said I used them too for years until the would not furnish fuel I could use any longer, and told me the only oil was the one they developed and it was so much better I did not need any castor, or any input into the fuel I wanted to use.

If they will now make real stunt fuel and let us know the exact blend, then they may get some customers back.

Randy

Phil Bare · « **Reply #22 on:** July 12, 2013, 04:17:40 AM »

Randy, give them a call, they will mix what ever you want.

Brett Buck · « **Reply #23 on:** July 12, 2013, 09:55:35 AM »

Quote from: Phil Bare on July 12, 2013, 04:17:40 AM

Randy, give them a call, they will mix what ever you want.

   I used Red Max almost exclusively for years. Last time I tried ordering something from them (~1996) I got a lecture on how all castor oil was contaminated and no one could get the good kind any more. I inquired further, got lied to repeatedly, their castor oil was indeed contaminated, but no one else's was. They also told me they were working to develop fuel with their proprietary super-oil based on a "top CL engine expert" with someone who knew much better than I did - which turned out to be less than impressive. They kept that nonsense on their website until a few years ago, with a bunch of weasel-words appearing later trying to qualify it and back out of it.

I even did their "oil expert"'s test for bad oil, and sure enough, it did what they said. Then did the same test with Castor I got from SIG, no problem, same with castor I got from Powermaster, no problem, same with castor I got from a drum straight off the train from wherever they make it, no problem. The details have been rehashed over and over, they had a batch of oil that was contaminated with Xylene and created precipitates if you use too much of it.

   Had they merely stated that they couldn't make my fuel because they had no good castor oil, that would have been fine, I understand that. When they started trying to put the stink on everybody else, and outright lied to me on the phone on several occasions, forget it, I know where to find the Powermaster order line number.

   I wasted A LOT of time chasing BS rumors that FHS started and continued to promote for years after it was proven to be false, and so did a lot of other people. Near as I can tell, they got a bad batch of castor oil, either jumped to the conclusion that everybody else's was also bad, and/or used that as an excuse to promote their own "super-oil theories. I spent most of 96 and 97 screwing around trying to unravel this and lost an airplane in the process.

   People can do what they want, if they will actually mix the fuel you want without arguing with you, and they actually HAVE good castor oil now, then fine. But I and a lot of other people will no longer do business with them.

   Brett

Brett Buck · « **Reply #24 on:** July 12, 2013, 09:57:22 AM »

Quote from: RandySmith on July 11, 2013, 08:05:38 PM

Hi Phil

Thats great I am happy for you, I assume they will not mind answering the questions I posted above then.
Like I said I used them too for years until the would not furnish fuel I could use any longer, and told me the only oil was the one they developed and it was so much better I did not need any castor, or any input into the fuel I wanted to use.

If they will now make real stunt fuel and let us know the exact blend, then they may get some customers back.

Did you ever hear who they were using as their "Top CL Stunt Engine expert" consultant? That was the kicker for me...

Brett

p.s. I hadn't thought of this, and naturally I don't spend a lot of time talking to their purported expert, but it's entirely possible that they were lying about that, too, and just dropped a name that they thought would be really impressive, without ever bothering to consult anyone. It impressed me so much that I went and bought some powermaster.

Phil Bare · « **Reply #25 on:** July 12, 2013, 11:23:28 AM »

Brett, I have been using Red Max for a very long time with out any problems of any sort. Maybe I am just lucky?
I will admit that my usage is probably not nearly as high as yours, so maybe that explains it.

Brett Buck · « **Reply #26 on:** July 12, 2013, 12:19:23 PM »

Quote from: Phil Bare on July 12, 2013, 11:23:28 AM

Brett, I have been using Red Max for a very long time with out any problems of any sort. Maybe I am just lucky?
I will admit that my usage is probably not nearly as high as yours, so maybe that explains it.

Mine ran fine too, and if I could get them to make it they way I wanted there was no problem with the runs. I just couldn't tolerate getting lied to on multiple occasions, and they refused to make my fuel because "all castor is bad". I don't know what else I could have done but find a different supplier.

Brett

Phil Bare · « **Reply #27 on:** July 12, 2013, 12:45:13 PM »

Brett, They have always mixed 1o% nitro 25% castor for me with out any problems. Hard to imagine your experience.

Brett Buck · « **Reply #28 on:** July 12, 2013, 01:18:48 PM »

Quote from: Phil Bare on July 12, 2013, 12:45:13 PM

Brett, They have always mixed 1o% nitro 25% castor for me with out any problems. Hard to imagine your experience.

It was a surprise to me as well, before then it was fine. I think Paul Walker was using Red Max, too, for the same reason. This was in 95/96, but the "no one can get good castor oil anymore" stuff was on their website as recently as a few years ago. With a bunch of other, contradictory statements saying "well, we never said it was all bad" - on the same page!

Maybe it's fixed now (presumably with new people) in which case everything may be fine.

Brett

RandySmith · « **Reply #29 on:** July 12, 2013, 02:21:58 PM »

Quote from: Brett Buck on July 12, 2013, 01:18:48 PM

It was a surprise to me as well, before then it was fine. I think Paul Walker was using Red Max, too, for the same reason. This was in 95/96, but the "no one can get good castor oil anymore" stuff was on their website as recently as a few years ago. With a bunch of other, contradictory statements saying "well, we never said it was all bad" - on the same page!

Maybe it's fixed now (presumably with new people) in which case everything may be fine.

Brett

HI Brett

NO I never found who the CL expert was on the fuel. I did have my customers using it all over the country, and I had recommended it to them for years. Then they really messed that up badly. Paul had lots of bad fuel from them as did many many other people all over the country including me, Bill Rich and many others in the SE.

Phil I was their Screw up and they did it 100% without help form anyone... none of this is made up, Like I say I have been in Fred's shop when he first started the Fuel business. They are good people and I for one hated that they did this, It also really cost me in motors and motor sales back years ago. Then cost many people lots of time money and energy trying to get their program back on track.
All I can say is if you never heard or saw this then you just weren't paying attention, reading the site or speaking with them, as many people were.....did not make any of this up...
Ted Fancher was at a contest where Paul Walker had just got a New PA engine for the first time ever, and a new shipment of RED Max fuel.. He had very bad motor runs, could not get a decent run at the Contest they were at until he swap fuels, then all was perfect. Ted Meanwhile interested in the new PA engine Ted saw bad ,inconsistent runs, needle all over the place and took away ,,,,bad engine line, he told a few that MY new Engines didn't work very well, and that Paul was having a hard time with them...that spread like wildfire across the country, and I had engines orders cancelled by many many people. fortunately Paul told many people what happened, then went to LUBBOCK TX and won the NATs with the same engine combo. There was I think about 8 or 9 of the New PA engines there, All of them wound up in the finals! None were using the Red Max fuel.

I tried to get the fuel problem straight, but had no luck with that, with teh people at RM I talked with. That was a shame because they had fuel that worked so well for so long.

Randy

rich gorrill · « **Reply #30 on:** July 12, 2013, 03:14:58 PM »

Phil, I have never heard of this fuel, with my recent return to the world of control line flying I appreciate all of the input the boards have to offer. Randy, thanks for the heads up on the fuel problem, I will just sit back and wait this one out for more input. I think most of the guys I fly with use PowerMaster or Brodak fuel. I was told we have a contest coming up in 2 weeks and someone will be selling the PowerMaster fuel there. I will probably load up on this and save shipping charges.

RandySmith · « **Reply #31 on:** July 12, 2013, 03:30:35 PM »

Hi Rich

Not as bad as it sounds, this happened a while back, and It seems they finally have the problems corrected..

Brodak ,Power master ,SIG fuel is good, so use any of it, just use the right oil type and content ie.. percentages

Regards
Randy

Phil Bare · « **Reply #32 on:** July 12, 2013, 04:16:26 PM »

Quote from: rich gorrill on July 12, 2013, 03:14:58 PM

Phil, I have never heard of this fuel, with my recent return to the world of control line flying I appreciate all of the input the boards have to offer. Randy, thanks for the heads up on the fuel problem, I will just sit back and wait this one out for more input. I think most of the guys I fly with use PowerMaster or Brodak fuel. I was told we have a contest coming up in 2 weeks and someone will be selling the PowerMaster fuel there. I will probably load up on this and save shipping charges.

Rich, I have been using Red Max for many, many years in both CL and RC engines. I have always been able to get what ever mix that I wanted with no problem. I never experienced any problems with their fuel even though I was aware of the chatter some years back.
As a sport/fun flyer, I am sure that my usage is much less than the competition flyers though and my idea of how an engine should run may be much different than what the experts expect.

FHS Manufacturing is fairly close to me and it is convenient. I use 10% nitro 25% castor almost exclusively and Red Max has always worked for me.
Give it a try, you might like it.

Regards, Phil