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Author Topic: Fuel Handling  (Read 1495 times)

Offline Brett Buck

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Fuel Handling
« on: May 10, 2023, 12:20:56 AM »
As the topic came up in another thread, I figured I would discuss the topic of fuel handling.

First and foremost, there should never be any “buildup of debris” in a needle valve over time, and if that happens frequently, you have a fuel contamination problem. You should not have to routinely clear it out.

As it comes, any quality name-brand fuel I have used over many years has had practically no contamination, and by that I mean, I have found at most a few little specs in various filters after dozens of gallons. David F. used to dutifully filter every drop of fuel he used through coffee filters, decanting it from the factory jug to a “use” jug, and I did it for a while, too, even though I had never had an issue. While I was doing the coffee filter routine, I would periodically get little threads that would get stuck on the needle or in filters, and I had to disassemble and clean it out about once a gallon or so. I switched to some 10 micron stainless steel filter material that I “acquired”. Had there been any contamination, this extremely fine media would have quickly clogged up, and anything smaller than 10 microns would pass easily through the needle valve. I did this for maybe 20 gallons of fuel, never once did it filter out even a speck of contamination, and while it later got clogged up with dried-out castor oil (cleaned up with lacquer thinner…), it still passes fuel easily.  Point being, with either SIG, Powermaster, and Byron, I never found anything at all.

Now, of course, I stopped filtering it by decanting through a filter because it was unnecessary to eliminate non-existent contamination, and greatly increased the exposure to air.

I use the DuBro plastic/aluminum “kwik-fill” fuel can fittings:

https://www.dubro.com/collections/fuel-accessories/products/kwik-fill-fuel-cap-fitting

This has only plastic and aluminum parts, and the fuel “probe” seals air-tight with an o-ring. It seals well enough that you can leave the fuel in the back of the car and it will hold the pressure of temperature changes without leaking, so it doesn’t “breath”. The aluminum and plastic last forever in the presence of fuel. The similar brass version doesn’t seal up, and, will definitely corrode away under the presence of methanol vapor – that’s what happened to mine, it just fell apart one day.  It also has large-diameter fuel passages and uses the large tubing for the up line, so you can suck it up much faster.

    The kit comes with a pickup with a coarse nylon screen in the pickup. I use that, a “Russkie” take-apart filter with a medium metal mesh, and then the larger of the two Sullivan “Crap Trap” filters, with a medium and fine filter. All the fuel is sucked through the filters on the off chance that something gets into the fuel from handling it. This just goes onto the plastic cap from a Powermaster Can.  Note that you want to use a *metal can* like Powermaster comes in – fuel is definitely sensitive to light and will break down after a while. Additionally, plastic eventually gets brittle and can crack as it is cycled with temperature, so you end up with a car trunk full of fuel. The same could happen with a metal can, but so far, it hasn’t.

https://www.amazon.com/Sullivan-Products-Double-Screen-Filter/dp/B0006O8MPA

I use a 5 ounce veterinary syringe with a replacement nylon stopper that I got from the late Carl Shoup. Jim Lee makes something similar. My syringe body is a “catheter tip” with a large conical end where the fuel comes out, as opposed to the “lock” type intended for use with a hypodermic needle. The original black stopper will work for a while, and while it is clear that the rubber breaks down and leaves black marks on the inside, I haven’t found any real problem with it. The big problem is that at some point, the plunger will pull out of the rubber while you are sucking up fuel, and pull it sideways and all the fuel will go on your pants ,airplane, the ground, etc. the same thing happens when the o-ring breaks on your Carl Shoup stopper, but that was once in the last 30 years for me, rather than once a month for the original stopper.

   My syringe fill tube has a “crap trap” filter in it, but it ends up not really filtering anything because it has two-way flow. It’s just there to transition from the large to the small tubing. If anything came out of the fuel can, it would get pushed up against the fine medium and then pushed into the tank when I got to fill it.

In the airplane, I use a single Crap Trap filter in the pickup line. Over the years this does catch a speck or two now and then, and the occasional “thread”. Part of this comes from solder rosin on new tanks, and part of it is various dirt and insect parts. I inspect it once a year when I clean up the inside of the cowl before the NATs. Again, only occasional specks, now and then.

In some situations, the Crap Trap is too long to fit. For that, I use the very small take-apart filters sold by Dave Shadel, Dub Jett, and others. They are the same OD as fuel line and use just a tiny chip of medium-fine filter media. The issue with these is that they can come loose and then leak air. I always clean them up, then apply a VERY VERY THIN layer of silicone sealant on both sides of the gasket, then screw them down as tight as I can manage with my fingers, holding the small end with pliers. DO NOT get any sealant inside the filter.

 Note that both the Crap Trap and the various take-part filters have a “inlet” and “outlet” side. On the Crap Trap, of course the medium filter comes first, then the fine. On the take-apart filter, the externally-threaded side comes first, and the “hollow” inside-threaded part is downstream. This puts the filter media on the engine side rather than the tank side, so if large debris does get stopped by the filter, it can build up in a large-cross-section area rather than the small tubing nipple. At least on my 40 and 60-sized engines, the medium on the Shadel filter is small enough that if something can fit through, it can also fit through the needle. You don’t want it any finer than necessary to avoidl the possibility of unnecessary clogs.

And no matter what anyone might tell you, I urge to you to ALWAYS, repeat, ALWAYS use a filter in the airplane. The usual beef is that having a filter means you can have an additional chance of air leaks. That is *exceedingly rare* and can easily be dealt with. The only time I have seen a Crap Trap leak is due to a manufacturing defect, when the push the aluminum end fitting in, I have seen two them where the clear plastic got tucked under and caused an air leak. It is easy to see just by looking at it, screen for it. The take-aparts and “disposable” types can leak through the joint. The take-aparts are treated as I described above. The little blue disposable types need something done. Ted used to use “plasti-dip” toll grip dip medium, which is some sort of liquid vinyl. Flex seal would also work – just paint a thick layer over the barrel of the filter. Regardless, even with the most careful handling, you can pick up insect parts and dirt during the launch and in flight, you must stop these at the filter, it cannot be allowed to get into the needle and ruin a flight, burn up the engine, or cause a crash.

Assuming you do all this, your incidence of unexpected changes in the engine run (outside an intentional change you made, or the usual altitude/temperature/humidity variations that are generally very small) should be rare. But, suppose you *do* find a problem, where it suddenly seems as if you need to make a huge adjustment to get it to sound or tach right, or it “takes off” lean in the middle of a flight. You can sometimes “fix” these clogs by opening the needle a lot to try to let the debris go through the larger opening, and then turn it back after. But I would only recommend that in the case where you are down to your last competition attempt and have no other choice.

   In any other case, I would very highly recommend killing the engine, and taking it apart to inspect the fuel lines for splits, leaks, check all the filters for debris. But most critically, remove the needle completely, wipe it with your finger, and then run a small “bottle brush” through the spraybar with acetone or some similar solvent. You can get very small bottle brushes or “tooth gap brushes” at a drugstore, for going between your teeth.  Then flush it with fuel. The reason for physically cleaning everything is because if one of the mysterious threads gets wrapped around the needle or stuck in the spraybar, it can withstand a simple flushing and get stuck where the end of the thread gets pulled into the spraybar hole or spigot, and the free end whip around inside the venturi. This tends to give wildly unpredictable effects, and the fuel will run down the thread sometimes and then back onto the venturi walls, or something odd like that. You need to clean both the needle and the spraybar with some mechanical action to assure you will get it.

This all sounds kind of paranoid, but over the years I and many have learned the hard way that it’s no paranoia if mystery debris really is out to get you. You cannot be too careful about this stuff.

    Brett

Offline Peter in Fairfax, VA

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Re: Fuel Handling
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2023, 09:26:43 AM »
Thanks for the informative post, Brett.

One thing I learned from the post was the two different Du-Bro offerings.  I've been using the $4.01 brass model linked below, but see that the $14.25 model is also available.  The O-ring you mention in the more expensive model sounds like a good thing, though the brass model has been adequate to my needs.  An alternative design is discussed below.

Your description of the Sullivan crap trap installation makes sense, though it does require the installer to gauge which is the finer second screen.  Way too often I see them installed in reverse, as a casual glance without gauging the mesh suggests the screen be in a "funnel" orientation.

As far as the filter in the syringe line, my thinking is that it would create a tendency to concentrate debris in the filter as the fuel is drawn, then release that "chunk" when supplying.  For this reason, I have no syringe line filter.

An alternative design to the o-ring and brass Du-Bro designs is an arrangement where two brass or copper tubes come through the can's cap.  With a metal cap, this is easy and inexpensive, a simple drill and solder job.  One tube gets tubing and a filter clunk inside the can.  The other tube is a vent.  The can seals by connecting the two metal tubes with a piece of fuel tubing.  For plastic caps, two of the brass Du-Bro kits can be used to create this style, discarding the brass probes.

Any of these arrangements is far superior to dipping the syringe tubing in an open can.  The problem there is the wet tubing attracts field debris, which is then released into the can on the next insertion.

Thanks again for writing on this topic,

Peter

Offline frank mccune

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Re: Fuel Handling
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2023, 09:47:43 AM »
     Great post Brett!

      I have seen so much “garbage” in my fuel over the years.  So far, fuel filers have done their lobs and prevented clogged nva.  I seem to get a lint type of material clogging my filters.  I have no idea as to what this is but it does indeed require cleaning of the filter.  Do you have any theory what this could be? It is white in color and fiber like.

     Stay well,

     Frank

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Fuel Handling
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2023, 10:32:00 AM »
     Great post Brett!

      I have seen so much “garbage” in my fuel over the years.  So far, fuel filers have done their lobs and prevented clogged nva.  I seem to get a lint type of material clogging my filters.  I have no idea as to what this is but it does indeed require cleaning of the filter.  Do you have any theory what this could be? It is white in color and fiber like.

   My best guess is that someone along the line is filtering it through a coffee filter or similar. What brand of fuel are you talking about?  Do not use a fibrous filter, and, make sure that you filter it as it comes out of the can.

   I highly recommend VP/Powermaster fuel -it's perfectly clean as it comes, it comes in a can, has never caused a "tater" problem, and is no more expensive that any other brand.

    Brett

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Fuel Handling
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2023, 10:36:12 AM »

As far as the filter in the syringe line, my thinking is that it would create a tendency to concentrate debris in the filter as the fuel is drawn, then release that "chunk" when supplying.  For this reason, I have no syringe line filter.

    As noted, in my case, it is just there as a convenient converter to go from the large-diameter silicone tubing on the syringe to the medium needed to fill the tank. Agreed that it does not really filter anything from the can. It would keep out debris from a shedding syringe stopper.   If there was any contamination in the fuel, it would get pulled up against the "downstream" media, then pushed into the tank, but there isn't any of that.

    I would also note that while I have never had a problem with either the Dave Brown peristaltic pump or a fuel syringe, some types of fuel pump do appear to shed particles into the fuel. At least some types of condiment pumps shed a lot of plastic debris that you have to filter on the way to the airplane. This is not terribly surprising because they are intended for ketchup and mustard, not a very aggressive and corrosive monopropellant rocket fuel. Paul Walker uses a large automotive filter on the outlet of his condiment pump to filter this out.

    Brett

Offline Peter in Fairfax, VA

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Re: Fuel Handling
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2023, 10:43:26 AM »
I'm going to agree on the "stopper shedding" being a concern that a syringe filter could address.  While the Jim Lee 5 oz syringe uses pretty good o-rings, the basic syringes from other vendors do tend to deteriorate.  It helps a little to lubricate the stoppers with air tool oil and also clean the interior of the syringe.

Regarding the sensitivity of fuel to light, I'm not clear on the theory there.  The basic ingredients are oil, methanol and nitro.  Which one changes, and how does it change?

Offline Joe Ed Pederson

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Re: Fuel Handling
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2023, 11:08:28 AM »
The lacquer thinner I use to clean brushes and spray guns comes in metal gallon cans.  Would it be safe to use such a can as a fuel can?   Would it be safe after lacquer thinner has all evaporated or would the can need to be cleaned out with something before putting fuel in it?

Joe Ed Pederson

Offline Lauri Malila

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Re: Fuel Handling
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2023, 12:25:36 PM »
.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2023, 04:40:03 AM by Lauri Malila »

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Fuel Handling
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2023, 06:18:24 PM »
Any idea what is the best O-ring material? Silicone perhaps? I should make a new pistons to my syringes. Not much rubber particles coming out anymore, but they are getting increasingly tight.
Regarding the light sensitivity, fuel colour is clearly changing in sunlight, so something is happening for sure. But more importantly, you should keep the fuel in shadow to keep the temperature constant. I've seen enough people who don't respect that, and surprisingly same people have always "mysterious" engine issues. L

   Red silicone.

   BTW, say what you want, but I leave my fuel in the back of the car, and on the hot Muncie blacktop for hours at a time. Doesn't cause any unexpected issues.

    Brett


p.s. Note also: https://stunthanger.com/smf/engine-set-up-tips/carl-shoup-syringe-o-ring/msg562002/#msg562002
« Last Edit: May 10, 2023, 06:46:47 PM by Brett Buck »

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Fuel Handling
« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2023, 07:11:35 PM »
     Great post Brett!

      I have seen so much “garbage” in my fuel over the years.  So far, fuel filers have done their lobs and prevented clogged nva.  I seem to get a lint type of material clogging my filters.  I have no idea as to what this is but it does indeed require cleaning of the filter.  Do you have any theory what this could be? It is white in color and fiber like.

     Stay well,

     Frank

   The fibers you see come from the castor oil in your fuel. The castor bean is a relative of the soybean, and from the soybean you can make things ranging from a sweater to a hamburger!! As the fuel/oil passes through small passages like filter screens, it is kind of an extrusion process, and that's how it was explained to me. If you find some in your engine filter, might as well check and clean the one you draw fuel with from the container because they will both have it in it. If you fly the same fuel a lot, say 5 or 6 flights each session and  three or four sessions a week and are using at least 50/50 castor synthetic fuel, it will accumulate fairly quickly. When gas powered R/C cars first became popular, most of the fuel available then was more or less airplane fuel and had castor in it, and I handled many customers with cars that would not start because it couldn't get fuel, pull the carb apart and pull a cotton ball out of it and watch the eyes bug out!! "I filter my fuel before I put it in!!" but it can still form, even after passing through a previous filter. In today's R/C car fuel, I've seen some that as little as 10% TOTAL OIL!! And that's all synthetic, but they run those engines differently. That's one reason I why I like to run a fuel filter in the feed line, to give that a place to happen before the needle valve. It can still happen at the needle/seat area, just no room for it to build. This is something I learned from the Fox factory, after we got a batch of fuel from them at the hobby shop years ago that had some little white nodules floating around in it. Rather than ship it back, they sent us new jugs, and I got the job of filtering the fuel from one jug to another for about 12 cases of fuel!!. I called them about this before I did the filtering, and they said the nodules were a by product of the castor oil also, in addition to the lint, which I had experienced by that time. I forget who I talked to but he assured me the fuel would be fine, and the lint issue doesn't go away, just use a filter as a place for it to happen. And he was correct, the fuel worked fine. We used to have a club member here, Jim Thomerson, who a lot of you may know from Austin, Texas. Jim, besides being just the nicest guy you would ever want to meet, was also a world renowned botanist and a professor of botany at Southern Illinois University in Edwardsville. I ran that question by Jim and he confirmed that. Jim was one of the first I ever met that ran 50/50 castor and Klotz ( SIG Champion fuel) in his older engines, and that was one reason why, as the "cotton" build up happens less, or at least it seems to when upping the synthetic content. As a way to test this easily, if you run any all synthetic fuel in anything, just use a syringe for that only with a filter in the line, and watch the filter over time. For a few summers, I was flying my Score with a Saito .56 in it, and running Powermaster YS-20/20 all synthetic in it at the suggestion of several people.  It's great fuel, just costs $60 a gallon now!! When i was I was flying that airplane I used a separate syringe for it and never had the lint problem. I know it sound really flakey and people wonder what I'm smoking, shooting, drinking or whatever, but this is the honest to God's truth!!  If I have seen anything over the last 40 years of participating in this that has been repeatable it's what I described above!
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee
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Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Fuel Handling
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2023, 07:27:34 PM »
Any idea what is the best O-ring material? Silicone perhaps? I should make a new pistons to my syringes. Not much rubber particles coming out anymore, but they are getting increasingly tight.
Regarding the light sensitivity, fuel colour is clearly changing in sunlight, so something is happening for sure. But more importantly, you should keep the fuel in shadow to keep the temperature constant. I've seen enough people who don't respect that, and surprisingly same people have always "mysterious" engine issues. L

    If you have access to them, a selection of the better grades is handy to have on hand. I agree with Brett on the Buna-N as least desirable but probably the easiest for the common modeler to find. Some hardware stores will carry O-ring in that size. The Viton will be really good along with the silicone if you can find them. I get my piston assemblies from Jim Lee and when he first started making them, he did a lot of trial and error of the groove size and O-rings and I have gotten a variety of different O-rings form him to try over the years, including a double lip type. The issue with the syringes is whoever makes them, and their quality control. The syringe does wear out, dries out and splits, and the nipple on the end can break off. I got all my syringes at the SIG contest each year, always bought one whether I needed one or not and just stored them.  Things were fine for a long time when changing out the syringe, but then would get one that was really tight or too loose. I still run into that from time to time when one has to be replaced. If it's too loose or tight, I change out the O-ring and sometimes that helps. Sometimes I put a wrap or two of Teflon tape in the groove to shim put the O-ring until it fits. All it takes is a light shot on the injection molding machine and you have a misfit one way or the other. In recent history, the double lips rings I got from Jim I think have been the best as far as consistent fit. they might be a bit softer durometer and conform easier if too tight. I haven't been that clumsy lately and dropped or broken any either so haven't had to replace one lately. The first thing I do with one when it's right out of the bag is cover the graduation marks with clear box tape to preserve them.
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Fuel Handling
« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2023, 07:41:27 PM »
I'm going to agree on the "stopper shedding" being a concern that a syringe filter could address.  While the Jim Lee 5 oz syringe uses pretty good o-rings, the basic syringes from other vendors do tend to deteriorate.  It helps a little to lubricate the stoppers with air tool oil and also clean the interior of the syringe.

Regarding the sensitivity of fuel to light, I'm not clear on the theory there.  The basic ingredients are oil, methanol and nitro.  Which one changes, and how does it change?

  Nitromethane is the sensitive component, as far as I know. It has the characteristic of "decomposing" due to a variety of issues - contact with a glowing rhodium or platinum wire, for instance. It's only weakly stable as a molecule, which is it why it also works (poorly) as a monopropellant rocket fuel.

   Brett

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Fuel Handling
« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2023, 08:24:02 PM »
  Nitromethane is the sensitive component, as far as I know. It has the characteristic of "decomposing" due to a variety of issues - contact with a glowing rhodium or platinum wire, for instance. It's only weakly stable as a molecule, which is it why it also works (poorly) as a monopropellant rocket fuel.

   Brett

   Is there any nitromethane production in the USA any more? I remember the big "Nitro Shortage" that happened back in the early 90's some time I think it was. What was supposed to be the last operating plant making it had an explosion and fire, and the EPA would not allow it to be rebuilt. That prompted the shortage, and I remember Fox was pushing fuel with nitroethane as a replacement, and both SIG and Fox were pushing zero nitro fuel. I think it was drag racer Joe Capp that got in trouble with the NHRA for publishing braggish photos of his practice sessions with stacks of 55 gallon drums of nitro and thumbing his nose at everyone else over NHRAs restrictions on testing because of the shortages.  Nitromethane is used it so much more that model fuel and racing like manufacturing of all sorts of synthetic products and even medicines. When the stuff from China started flowing here is about when a lot of bearing issues started to show up in engines, and the Chinese nitro was blamed for it as being very acidic. Add that to the moisture that the alcohol can attract and that is plausible. That doesn't seem like that long ago but was 30 years ago or more. We were selling all K&B and Fox fuel at the hobby shop at that time, and then Red Max made it's appearance undercutting prices. So naturally, people bought what was cheaper, and after a while, the engine problems started. We kept two baby food jars on the counter, one with K&B 500 in it, and the other with the equivalent Red Max fuel, whish would have been 10% nitro I think, and in each was a 1" length of brass tubing. The tubing in the Red Max would start to change colors and corrode in a few days, and in a few weeks was down right ugly. The tubing in the K&B fuel would tarnish but stayed pretty solid. That didn't have much effect on sales as red Max was 8 or 10 bucks a gallon and K&B 500 was in the 12 to 15 bucks a gallon at that time, expensive for those days. People would still go for the cheap stuff, but after run oil came onto the market at that time also and we sold a lot of that!
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Fuel Handling
« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2023, 10:04:03 PM »
   Is there any nitromethane production in the USA any more? I remember the big "Nitro Shortage" that happened back in the early 90's some time I think it was. What was supposed to be the last operating plant making it had an explosion and fire, and the EPA would not allow it to be rebuilt.

   I know that there is at least one USA producer and a maybe 20 Chinese suppliers. I found that the USA production was on the order of 10 million pounds a year and that the market overall is much larger. It is a very common industrial chemical, so I don't think we are likely to run out of it.

    Brett

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Fuel Handling
« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2023, 10:22:32 PM »
The lacquer thinner I use to clean brushes and spray guns comes in metal gallon cans.  Would it be safe to use such a can as a fuel can?   Would it be safe after lacquer thinner has all evaporated or would the can need to be cleaned out with something before putting fuel in it?

  Perfectly fine as far as I can see. You don't even have to let it evaporate all that much - I have put it in fuel *on purpose* more than once. Acetone and unleaded gas, too. Other interesting things, too. But it wasn't worth doing aside from rare and desperate circumstances.

     Brett

p.s. in case anyone was speculating about my various mystery substances, no, I *did not* run it in a contest!

Offline Dave Hull

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Re: Fuel Handling
« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2023, 11:41:21 PM »
A question was asked how a filter on a syringe setup could filter fuel going into a tank if it picked up contaminants as the syringe was being filled. Why wouldn’t the crud collected go straight into the tank?

Here is a setup that prevents this from happening. It really isn’t more complicated to use, you just break the lines in different places for filling the syringe vs. filling the tank. In the first picture, the line is broken in the correct place to hook up to the fuel jug line.

The second picture shows the ubiquitous 5-oz. Monoject syringe used by sport and stunt U/C fliers. This syringe is a Jim Lee modified unit having the short-lived black plunger seal replaced with a machined plastic piston that incorporates a standard O-ring. These last much longer, do not get super-stiff (hard to operate), and avoid the dreaded “black dandruff" that clogs up your refueling filter.

In the picture, you can see that there is a filter/clunk that goes into the jug, and a modified cap. The jug is never opened during flying. To fill the syringe, the line is pulled off the top of the vent fitting on the cap and the syringe line is hooked up, using the short 1/8” copper coupler. Now withdraw the knob and fill the syringe to your desired volume. Next, now reconnect the copper coupler to the fuel line assembly that is stored on the flange of the syringe. Then, pull the fuel tubing off the storage feature (a 4-40 screw on the Jim Lee unit) and you are ready to connect the fuel line (which was on the screw) to your tank fitting.

The second picture shows the end of the fueling ensemble attached to your favorite fitting on the tank. The fuel only ever goes thru this filter when filling the tank—never when drawing fuel. The other piece of tubing is a spare. I mostly use it on the overflow fitting on a full-fuselage plane to keep the overflow off the paint job.

At the end of the days flying, wipe off the cap, the external line, and the syringe setup. Then place in a clean Ziploc bag. The quart size works nicely. While at the field store the fuel jug cap in the baggie to weight it down. This also functions as a wind speed indicator. If the bag tries to blow away, it is likely 8+ mph, and you can log it as contest practice…. But be sure that the bag is zipped at all times or you are defeating your efforts to keep things clean.

I’m sure there are other ways to go about keeping things uniformly clean. This one works for me.

Dave



Offline Joe Ed Pederson

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Re: Fuel Handling
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2023, 08:26:41 AM »
  Perfectly fine as far as I can see. You don't even have to let it evaporate all that much - I have put it in fuel *on purpose* more than once. Acetone and unleaded gas, too. Other interesting things, too. But it wasn't worth doing aside from rare and desperate circumstances.

     Brett

p.s. in case anyone was speculating about my various mystery substances, no, I *did not* run it in a contest!

Thanks, Brett.

Joe Ed Pederson

Offline Peter in Fairfax, VA

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Re: Fuel Handling
« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2023, 08:38:23 AM »
Dave,

Any comment on the sensitivity of nitro to light?  There is another aspect of nitro I'll attempt to discuss.

If it helps, I recall there being "white nitro" and "yellow nitro," the yellow having some sort of indicator.  Ours is almost always yellow, though lab grade may be white.  When the nitro is "sensitized," it acquires a more explosive quality.  The general advice is if your fuel suddenly turns purple for no obvious reason, you are advised to pour it on the ground slowly and immediately, and certainly not to intentionally sensitize it.

Brett has mentioned that the nitro is not that stable, and has been examined as a possible rocket fuel and perhaps explosive.  The typical way to convert our nitro to sensitized nitro is to introduce an amine, such as DETA, though strong acids and alkalines can also have the same effect.  Nitro jugs are labelled "do not clean with lye."  This is because they might explode.

While I'm not expert on rocket propellant or explosives, "shock initiation" and potential "detonation"  would be concerning.  A reference that describes some of the effects is below.

thanks,

Peter

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0094576579900705

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Fuel Handling
« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2023, 09:17:54 AM »
A question was asked how a filter on a syringe setup could filter fuel going into a tank if it picked up contaminants as the syringe was being filled. Why wouldn’t the crud collected go straight into the tank?

   And the answer was, it doesn't, it is just there to transition from one tubing size to another. By the time you go to suck it out of the tank, it has already gone through 3 filters, one, of identical design and filtering ability, and there was nothing in the fuel to begin with. So there are no "contaminents" in the first place. It would pick up anything that originated in the syringe.

     I note that your arrangement uses a syringe with a Leur-Lock spigot, so you end up using small-diameter tubing. I am using "catheter tip" syringes, which are much larger and require a large diameter silicone tubing. Hence the need to transition from one tube size to another.

     Brett

p.s. I also note the use of the DuBro large aluminum filter. Those are fine for use on a syringe, but DO NOT use those in the airplane. The black plastic thing with the filter element is just pressed or lightly glued into the large-diameter aluminum housing. These are rather famous for either leaking air, or falling apart where the plastic just falls out the back. I fixed one by pushing it back in until it was slight recessed, crimping the end over, and then filling up the depression with epoxy. But is is far less desirable than the Crap Trap, the Dave Shedle filter, or the old two-part hexagonal types.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2023, 10:55:48 AM by Brett Buck »

Online Dave_Trible

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Re: Fuel Handling
« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2023, 07:01:57 PM »
The easy way to keep the crud from getting pumped into the tank is simply to fill the syringe,  then turn it up to get the air to the top and squirt the air and a bit of fuel back into your jug-then fill your tank.  It gets to be a habit pretty quick and the dirt in the filter won't be transferred to the airplane.  You'll still need to back flush the filter in the airplane routinely due to trash blown or drawn into the uniflow tube and fine dust or threads that still get through the normal filters.  Where you fly can have a lot to do with that.  I do this and check the bolts etc., every second or third trip to the flying field.  Like wiping the black crap off your flying lines that seems to come out of nowhere,  you'd be surprised how fast a glob will build in the filter no matter how careful you are with fuel.  Having said that,  far more soil goes straight in the venturi each flight that whatever may come through the fuel.   This can cause engine damage much faster.  Panty hose help but it's like the 'cheap' filters used in your furnace.  They mostly just keep the mice from running through-not much else.

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Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Fuel Handling
« Reply #20 on: May 11, 2023, 10:06:32 PM »
   I used to filter fuel from one jug to the other, also. Coffee filters take too long and they aren't the optimum answer. I eventually went to paint filters for spray guns. Spray guns require nice, clean debris free paint to work correctly and they are sensitive to contamination. They are pretty fine and pass liquid easily, and you can stack two or three up for some extra filter action. Clean them up after wards and reuse them. I decided that I didn't need to do that anymore. Most fuel is filtered throughout it's manufacturing process, and is pretty damn clean in the jug. All you have to do is look at it to tell, and why handle it any more?. That's one plus for using jugs, you can inspect it before you buy it. The reason they all went to jugs from metal cans was "for safety reasons" we were told at the hobby shop. Then years later the pendulum swung back the other way when jug quality came into question from splitting in shipment and Hazmat came into the vocabulary, and metal cans were cool again "for safety reasons!!" I just make sure my stock is stored in a cool, dry place, out of sunlight  in the cases it came in. I figure that the fuel, if bought from a reputable manufacturer, is as clean as it's ever gonna get, and nothing I'm gonna do is gonna make it better, and I might even spill a lot along the way doing it!!  I take them out as needed. When I open it I get what I need and put the lid back on immediately, put the jug back in the shade. I use a filter to draw the fuel, then remove it to put in into the tank. I guess I  could put another filter on it to put in in the tank, but that's one more step and the judges are getting antsy sitting in the hot sun. I am pretty good about making sure the tubing end is clean. I always run a filter on the model also. The big culprit I think is the tanks, as far as generation of minute bits of crap just from decay and age. It happens. It doesn't have to be much, and it's something that 99% of us never think about. The fuel we have to use these days is pretty caustic, I think the word is, between the effects of the alcohol and nitro. Look what it does to a length of silicone fuel line over a relatively short period of time, even the good Prather pink stuff. If the metal tank you are using has any scratches on the inside, they will start rusting at that point. Not in any great quantity, but it will happen. When it gets to a certain point, engine vibration acts like an ultrasonic cleaner and the vibrations will make stuff start to flake off. I know this happens because I have used this action to clean tanks in old models with built in tanks that I want to fly at least once or twice. Mike Gretz's Fierce Arrow is one of them and you can find the video of it flying on YouTube. I got three flights on it at first, just checking it out basically, before the fuel filter filled with rust and choked off fuel flow. I started to let the tank soak in white vinegar for a couple of days, flushed out the tank with air to expel the vinegar, and then flushed with fuel. Then give it a couple of ground runs, and check the filter again. I repeated this about 6 times before the filter stayed clean. Then I set to really working with the model to fly patterns and the video is the result of that. Plastic tanks are a whole 'nother matter. The stoppers in them start to deteriorate from day one, even the supposedly new "improved" ones. It's just something you have to deal with and realize you will be replacing it some day because it's falling apart, and you can see the junk in the tank. I never use the brass tube in the tank kits, I replace with copper, but they don't last forever either, but it doesn't matter if you are still in the frequent crashing stage. The tubing corrodes and the vibrations makes that stuff flake off also. Not today, or not tomorrow, but if you have the model a year or two from now, expect something. It's just part of the game, Stuff is still gonna happen because Murphy's Law is ALWAYS in effect!! You can have the most laboratory clean fuel and put in in a brand new tank, but some where down the line, time catches up. Most of us are flying older models with tanks in them that have been in them a long time, but if everything is working great in the model, why change anything, and I won't either!! But you better be ready to do what you need to do to deal with it now and then. I use both plastic and metal tanks. It depends of the model. I have a big collection of both. I make tanks when needed. Easy to do and sometimes you just can't wait while ones comes in or nothing is exactly like what you need. The tank is what holds your precious fuel that you just spent a lot of effort straining and filtering, and they can be a source of grief, usually when you least expect it!!  But what are you gong to do if you are an old school gear head and love that sound and smell!!?? The option  is to go electric, and I really have no opposition or grudge against electric. At a certain level it can have it's advantages, but like the slimers with their dirty tanks, it has it's it's share of problems also, and if you read the entire forums here, you will see what they are and who has them!! Like I said, Murphy's Law is ALWAYS in effect!! And it does not discriminate on any way shape or form!! You just have to be vigilant and ready for it when the time comes!! The honest truth is that flying the "normal" engines like a lot of us do,  basically anything that uses castor oil ranging from Fox .35s to the LA.46 and many engines in between, is a really a pretty dirty operation. And the environment we fly in is really a pretty dirty environment, including the air with the stuff floating around in it. Things are just going to get dirty in the fuel system at some point or another, and a lot depends on how much you fly and where you fly. You just have to learn to deal with it.
  Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee
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Offline Lauri Malila

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Re: Fuel Handling
« Reply #21 on: May 21, 2023, 11:40:22 AM »
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« Last Edit: June 17, 2023, 04:40:46 AM by Lauri Malila »

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Fuel Handling
« Reply #22 on: June 06, 2023, 01:21:06 PM »
A belated THANK YOU to Brett for writing on this topic! I was probably the one that Brett was referring to (ranting about fuel handling), in another post. The one that I can't find.

What I often see and is so very appalling, is folks using a long hose with a single filter to draw fuel directly out of a jug or can after taking the lid off, then backflushing the filter into the fuel tank. Next, they usually lay the syringe/hose in the grass or worse yet, on the pavement, and then put the cap on the jug/can. The cap, of course, was laying in the grass or on the pavement. I just quietly shake my head.  R%%%% Steve
"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.


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