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Author Topic: Fuel composition inconsistent in the fuel container?  (Read 530 times)

Online Paul Van Dort

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Fuel composition inconsistent in the fuel container?
« on: November 24, 2022, 10:31:27 AM »
I was wondering whether it is possible that in static fuel containers, after some days, the lubricating fraction becomes more dens at the bottom than at the top.
Today I was using the last 20 % of the fuel in my jar and the engine was suffering from runaways (going to 2 stroke and only very slowly returning to normal regime). It was as if the oil percentage had dropped, although I always use the same formula.  Is it compulseray to shake the container before each flying session? Any experience?
Thanks!

Online Dan McEntee

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Re: Fuel composition inconsistent in the fuel container?
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2022, 10:54:40 AM »
I was wondering whether it is possible that in static fuel containers, after some days, the lubricating fraction becomes more dens at the bottom than at the top.
Today I was using the last 20 % of the fuel in my jar and the engine was suffering from runaways (going to 2 stroke and only very slowly returning to normal regime). It was as if the oil percentage had dropped, although I always use the same formula.  Is it compulsory to shake the container before each flying session? Any experience?
Thanks!


  That could very well be what's happening. If you have more oil, you have less fuel and the mixture would be lean. This is one reason why I never use a jug of fuel to the bottom. When it is down to about 1/4 full or so, I open a new one, use it until there is room for the old one, then pour the old one into the new jug.
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Online Paul Van Dort

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Re: Fuel composition inconsistent in the fuel container?
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2022, 11:44:17 AM »

  That could very well be what's happening. If you have more oil, you have less fuel and the mixture would be lean. This is one reason why I never use a jug of fuel to the bottom. When it is down to about 1/4 full or so, I open a new one, use it until there is room for the old one, then pour the old one into the new jug.
   HAPPY THANKSGIVING!!
  Dan McEntee

Thanks Dan. I am using a hand crank pump, so I always pump the fuel from about half an inch from the bottom of the jug. So when the jug is full, I am most likely pumping away a mixture with too much oil. But as today, when the jug is almost empty, the remaining mix is probably low on lubricant. ...

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Fuel composition inconsistent in the fuel container?
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2022, 02:39:09 PM »
I was wondering whether it is possible that in static fuel containers, after some days, the lubricating fraction becomes more dens at the bottom than at the top.
Today I was using the last 20 % of the fuel in my jar and the engine was suffering from runaways (going to 2 stroke and only very slowly returning to normal regime). It was as if the oil percentage had dropped, although I always use the same formula.  Is it compulseray to shake the container before each flying session? Any experience?
Thanks!

      I have never had any detectable issue with the fuel separating/stratifying, and if it is genuinely compatible oil, it shouldn't. I would be far more suspect of water getting in it as you use it. I use the DuBro fuel can fittings, no air gets into it over use, and it doesn't "breathe" with temperature changes. I leave my fuel in the car all the time, it sits there with the fuel fittings not leaking air, and I can never tell any change.


Granted, I live in a very low humidity area, dew points on the 40s most of the time, which is pretty darn low humidity when it's 105 degrees.   So, I never suck in much water as I fuel.

     I have used and known others who use "coupling solvents" like small amounts of acetone or MEK to get incompatible oil to mix with methanol and nitromethane, but I just use straight fuel right out of the can from the factory, only adjust it as I fuel the airplane,  and never have any issues.

    Brett

Online Paul Van Dort

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Re: Fuel composition inconsistent in the fuel container?
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2022, 03:47:46 PM »
It appears to be a kind of separation. I take good care of my methanol to avoid contamination with water. I reported here an issue in June when I had a flame out in a competition flight. Too much castor oil was the vedict. That was fuel from the bottom of a full jug, so there might have been an over percentage of oil compared to what I experienced this afternoon. Now the jug was almost empty, leaving me with an under percentage of oil.
I mix methanol with castor and Klotz. There should not be a mixing issue with these products, (there is no visible separation)  but I am not sure that the mix is consistent over the heigth of the jug.  I will verify it trying to establish the density at the bottom of the jug, compared to the density at the top. Shaking the jug before every flight will be a new practise. I often get comments from the RC guys that my model produces a lot of smoke. Not today. Hardly any smoke and very little oil on the model. The 2 liter jug was mixed 2 weeks ago and I had stable flights with this fuel until today.
I never had the level of fuel in my 2 liter jug be so low as today. So this is a strong indication.
Investigation continues....

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Fuel composition inconsistent in the fuel container?
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2022, 07:49:43 PM »
It appears to be a kind of separation. I take good care of my methanol to avoid contamination with water. I reported here an issue in June when I had a flame out in a competition flight. Too much castor oil was the vedict. That was fuel from the bottom of a full jug, so there might have been an over percentage of oil compared to what I experienced this afternoon. Now the jug was almost empty, leaving me with an under percentage of oil.
I mix methanol with castor and Klotz. There should not be a mixing issue with these products, (there is no visible separation)  but I am not sure that the mix is consistent over the heigth of the jug.  I will verify it trying to establish the density at the bottom of the jug, compared to the density at the top. Shaking the jug before every flight will be a new practise. I often get comments from the RC guys that my model produces a lot of smoke. Not today. Hardly any smoke and very little oil on the model. The 2 liter jug was mixed 2 weeks ago and I had stable flights with this fuel until today.
I never had the level of fuel in my 2 liter jug be so low as today. So this is a strong indication.
Investigation continues....

  Uncontaminated standard methanol, nitromethane, castor oil and all the varieties of Klotz we use are 100% miscible and will not separate by itself in normal conditions.

 We have had occasional examples of contaminated fuel where there were clear globs floating around in it, and they would eventually settle to the bottom. In the case from the 1994 NATs, it was xylene, which was apparently present in the castor oil, used to wash the beans  after they are squeezed to get the last bit of oil, then boiled out. Or apparently not, in this case.

    If your fuel is separating, it is because of some contamination making it separate, or something else is not standard (like you variety of Klotz is not compatible with alcohol/methanol fuels), because that doesn't happen otherwise.

       Brett

 

Online Paul Van Dort

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Re: Fuel composition inconsistent in the fuel container?
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2022, 11:59:38 PM »
Thanks Brett, I think you are 100% right. The flame out in June happened with fuel that contained 5 or 10% nitro, to cope with the altitude of the contest site. It was the first time I added nitro to the mix. I remember thinking back then that adding nitro could not possibly cause a flame out.
But this nitro has a shelf life of 25+ years and I have been using it since Jne. So I have the strong feeling this nitro has gone wrong and it is causing separation. I am not so much in chemistry, so my knowledge about mixtures is not so impressive. Thanks again!

Offline Dan Berry

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Re: Fuel composition inconsistent in the fuel container?
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2022, 10:26:50 AM »
Moisture in the fuel is not a or the problem.

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Fuel composition inconsistent in the fuel container?
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2022, 12:40:05 PM »
Thanks Brett, I think you are 100% right. The flame out in June happened with fuel that contained 5 or 10% nitro, to cope with the altitude of the contest site. It was the first time I added nitro to the mix. I remember thinking back then that adding nitro could not possibly cause a flame out.
But this nitro has a shelf life of 25+ years and I have been using it since Jne. So I have the strong feeling this nitro has gone wrong and it is causing separation. I am not so much in chemistry, so my knowledge about mixtures is not so impressive. Thanks again!

  That, also, would be extremely unusual to cause separation and if it is starting to decompose, it will have precipitates at the bottom.
 
    But, if you are set up to run FAI fuel, and you go to 10% nitro, maybe it works at altitude in June, but not at sea level in November - lower altitude and cooler air. Unexpected flameouts, kicking back, "fierce" starting, are classic examples of overcompression. I submit that this sounds a lot more likely than having fuel separate because of nitro - since I have been doing this for 50+ years and never heard of anything like your stratification.

    This is one of the problems with running weak fuel and FAI fuel in particular - you have to jack up the compression so much that it is very "hair-trigger" to adjust and highly prone to tiny changes. Part of it is that the fuel is so weak you need a lot of compression to get any power out of it, and also, you do not get any advantage of the catalytic decomposition of nitromethane with the platinum or rhodium acting as a catalyst.

    Nitromethane is a moderately powerful rocket "monopropellant", because it will automatically "decompose" - separate into constituent components when exposed to high temperature or certain catalysts - like platinum. This is much like hydrogen peroxide and various forms of hydrazine - when it just touches platinum or something like it, it breaks the chemical bonds, generating extreme heat and then forming a hot gas. Without actually consuming anything else, like the platinum.

    This is why the the early glow experimenters came to nitromethane and platinum glow plugs in the first place - the first popular glow fuels used 37.5% nitro, which is why they had so much more power than gasoline, and why they blew some old gasoline engines to bits when you tried it (Ohlsson, for example). Many spacecraft use the same thing for a rocket engine/thruster - spray some decomposable liquid onto a hot bed of platinum, etc, it breaks down, turns to steam, inside an enclosed chamber, then you shoot it out through a narrow orfice at high speed. 

     Nitromethane is not a preferred propellant, it's too stable, hydrogen peroxide (in the required 95+% solution, not the 2% you get at the drugstore) , AKA T-Stoff, is far, far, too unstable and prone to blowing up in the tank because any slight contamination might cause it to decompose and is extremely dangerous to store. Hydrazine is the preferred combination of power an stability. Straight hydrazine gives more power but is more unstable and gives poor handling qualties (freezing at 3-4 degrees F), MMH (monomethyl hydrazine) more stable and has better handling qualities but less power, etc. That's why hydrazine was also a common model fuel component back in the day until it was banned, also used in methanol or ethanol-powered Indycars until it was banned (and sometimes afterward...) - much more prone to decomposition so "ignited" it more reliably.

   Methanol will also do something like this under certain circumstances - but is far more stable still than nitromethane. That's why you have to take very extreme measures like very high compression to get it to ignite at all. So, set up to run FAI at sea level, you might get away with nitro at high altitudes and temperatures, but cool or thicker air, the shock wave alone from the initial decomposition might also decompose the rest of it, no catalyst required, no flame front required. I will let you calculate the time it takes to get a shock wave across a 3/4" cylinder at the speed of sound in 1500 degree gas. Answer is "way faster than a flame front", it more-less decomposes it all almost instantly  - which is what "detonation" actually means in engine terms.

   So, I guess that you are running too much nitro or too much compression for your FAI-fuel engine, the fuel itself is fine. If you want to fix it, add a .005 head shim, or go back to FAI fuel.

     Brett

   

Offline Lauri Malila

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Re: Fuel composition inconsistent in the fuel container?
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2022, 01:10:24 PM »
By the way, if the engine is made for 0% nitro, like Retro or my stuff, you'd NEVER add 10% nitro in difficult air (Maybe, if you fly in Mars?). Normally 1-3% does a huge difference, and with a good, light model it's very very rarely needed. Yes, that means that the "sweet spot" of operation is more narrow than with the US cousins, but it is not that big a problem that Brett makes it sound like. But itís a completely different story if you take a non-FAI-fuel engine and expect it to work well just by adjusting the cr. There are other parameters too that contribute to thermodynamic stability.
But back to the Paul's original problem; I don't think the separation will happen with good quality ingredients. And also, the fuel gets usually well shaken already on the way to flying field. I have no interest to test how the possibly expired or contaminated fuel affects the engine run, I rather eliminate the potential problems before they happen:
-Fresh and correctly stored ingredients.
-I've been told that methanol can absorb water through wrong type of plastic container walls, but when mixed with oil it shouldn't be a problem. Only problem is the replacement air as the jug empties. Just to be sure, and because I like overkills, I keep my fuel in Nalgene PTFE bottles.
-Keep your fuel and model out of sunshine and at as constant temperature as possible. On sunny days, always cover the (models) nose with a wet rag.
-Also, while I can easily make consecutive flights with something like 4 minutes between landing and take-off, I think it's better to wait 15...20 minutes and start with a cold engine. It takes surprisingly long before the engine temperature stabilises after take-off, until about the end of wingover.
L
« Last Edit: November 26, 2022, 06:01:44 AM by Lauri Malila »

Online Paul Van Dort

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Re: Fuel composition inconsistent in the fuel container?
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2022, 12:42:08 AM »
Thank you all for the reactions. I am using a ST G51 with a few modifications. Normally it runs extremely stable with a lot of power. Swinging a 13-5 Brian Eather undercambered on a 2kg model. The needle only requires a click leaner or a click richer after the first flight of the day. Therefore any misbehaving is noticable immediately. And I want to understand the cause. Very often we see issues trying to be resolved by the wrong solutions. Fuel is my first suspect. that is the reason to start this discussion. I made fresh fuel and will see what it does... I will keep you posted.

Online Brian Hampton

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Re: Fuel composition inconsistent in the fuel container?
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2022, 06:19:01 PM »
...the engine was suffering from runaways (going to 2 stroke and only very slowly returning to normal regime). It was as if the oil percentage had dropped.....
Oh, a G51 :). I had the exact same problem with my G51 where it would go from a 4 stroke to a screaming 2 stroke with any change in attitude from level flight and then take about 2 laps of level flight to drop back into a 4 stroke. Fuel was my usual 80/20 castor. I tried every combination of changes to the engine (compression ratios, venturi sizes, ad nauseum) but nothing worked after about a month of trying. I was about to throw the engine away in disgust when I ran out of my usual fuel but I happened to have some 75/25 with me so I figured what the heck, give it one more flight. Holy cow! What a difference! Instant rock steady 4 stroke the entire flight. It took me some time to understand just why it made such a difference until the penny dropped. I knew the G51 was very fuel efficient so only needed quite a small tank for the pattern but (penny drop) that also meant a low oil flow meaning the engine was running on the edge of overheating forcing the 2 stroke which needed the couple of level laps to cool enough to 4 stroke again.

Online Paul Van Dort

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Re: Fuel composition inconsistent in the fuel container?
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2022, 11:23:00 AM »
Oh, a G51 :). I had the exact same problem with my G51 where it would go from a 4 stroke to a screaming 2 stroke with any change in attitude from level flight and then take about 2 laps of level flight to drop back into a 4 stroke. Fuel was my usual 80/20 castor. I tried every combination of changes to the engine (compression ratios, venturi sizes, ad nauseum) but nothing worked after about a month of trying. I was about to throw the engine away in disgust when I ran out of my usual fuel but I happened to have some 75/25 with me so I figured what the heck, give it one more flight. Holy cow! What a difference! Instant rock steady 4 stroke the entire flight. It took me some time to understand just why it made such a difference until the penny dropped. I knew the G51 was very fuel efficient so only needed quite a small tank for the pattern but (penny drop) that also meant a low oil flow meaning the engine was running on the edge of overheating forcing the 2 stroke which needed the couple of level laps to cool enough to 4 stroke again.
Thanks Brain. This supports my idea that something happened to the fuel. I still need to try in the air, but static engine tests with new fuel are promising. I will make it my habit to shake the jug before every flying session. No harm done. :-)

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Fuel composition inconsistent in the fuel container?
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2022, 01:10:44 PM »
Thanks Brain. This supports my idea that something happened to the fuel. I still need to try in the air, but static engine tests with new fuel are promising. I will make it my habit to shake the jug before every flying session. No harm done. :-)
 
      Again - unless it is contaminated, it *is not separating* or stratifying, that just does not happen. Shaking it will probably not hurt anything. Brian is suggesting that you are not using enough oil for this particular engine in some circumstances, and with a bit of change in the temperature or altitude, it is OK, other times, not.

     Some variant on Brian's theory or my theory is probably the issue, but it is not because the fuel is separating out unless you are using faulty or contaminated components.

    Brett

Offline Lauri Malila

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Re: Fuel composition inconsistent in the fuel container?
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2022, 02:22:20 PM »
Also, how is your piston ring doing? The stock ST.50 rings I've seen were not of very good quality. Maybe it's time to have the cylinder honed and a new ring fitted? L

Online Paul Van Dort

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Re: Fuel composition inconsistent in the fuel container?
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2022, 06:17:08 PM »
Also, how is your piston ring doing? The stock ST.50 rings I've seen were not of very good quality. Maybe it's time to have the cylinder honed and a new ring fitted? L
I use an after market ring from the UK. (See Ebay) . This ring was THE improvement for my engine. The stock ST ring was no good.  So the fit is good and so far no overlean runs or anything that would worry me. As soon as the weather allows, back to the field for testing.

Online Paul Van Dort

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Re: Fuel composition inconsistent in the fuel container?
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2022, 11:34:39 AM »
Today I was able to test again in the air:
 
Fresh Fuel (mix as usuual) and a good shake of the jug before the session.

Engine behaviour very good. No more runaways. decent power. great stability.

So the fuel was the issue as expected. Why the oil content was down I cannot explain. 

Thanks for all the feedback and help.

Online Dan McEntee

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Re: Fuel composition inconsistent in the fuel container?
« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2022, 01:04:49 PM »
I use an after market ring from the UK. (See Ebay) . This ring was THE improvement for my engine. The stock ST ring was no good.  So the fit is good and so far no overlean runs or anything that would worry me. As soon as the weather allows, back to the field for testing.

    Hi Paul;
   Can I ask who's aftermarket ring you used, out of curiosity? I have stock engines with untold number of flights and hours on them and , maybe the first one I got in 1994 could use a new ring by now. I have one or two Frank Bowman rings like Tom Lay used to use, and they were supposed to be hardened for long life, and maybe I'll just pop pone in there. I have never had any issues with stock G.51s after I learned what they really like for props. I just have never been able to get a 13 inch prop to run well, always seemed to be too much prop. The 12.25 by 3.75 APC has been my go to prop of the G-.51.
  Type at you later,
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Online Paul Van Dort

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Re: Fuel composition inconsistent in the fuel container?
« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2022, 02:20:38 PM »
    Hi Paul;
   Can I ask who's aftermarket ring you used, out of curiosity? I have stock engines with untold number of flights and hours on them and , maybe the first one I got in 1994 could use a new ring by now. I have one or two Frank Bowman rings like Tom Lay used to use, and they were supposed to be hardened for long life, and maybe I'll just pop pone in there. I have never had any issues with stock G.51s after I learned what they really like for props. I just have never been able to get a 13 inch prop to run well, always seemed to be too much prop. The 12.25 by 3.75 APC has been my go to prop of the G-.51.
  Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee

My engine is happy with the 13-5 Brian Eather undercambered. The 12-6 BE UC also works, but I like the extra vertical pull and the 5.2 lap times of the 13-5. I am convinced that blocking the boostport results in more torque. Adjusting compression and squishband gap for stability.
in 1996 at the Wch in Sweden  I used an APC 11-4. But the engine was not stable (due to the stock ring or?) . The engine is very versatile, but with large prop, the model needs a  lot of rudder kick in the outside corners. Took a long time to get the Rabe rudder to work correctly.
 
The ring Ebay seller is gaviscool. I don't find the ST51 rings today, but he makes them in badges. Check this link: https://www.benl.ebay.be/itm/254771105336?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160811114154%26meid%3D07dec2fcd8dd4be2a7239c919b97f3fc%26pid%3D100667%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D8%26sd%3D254771105336%26itm%3D254771105336%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2351460&_trksid=p2351460.c100667.m2042

« Last Edit: December 01, 2022, 04:05:28 PM by Paul Van Dort »

Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: Fuel composition inconsistent in the fuel container?
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2022, 07:10:54 PM »
Quote
I was wondering whether it is possible that in static fuel containers, after some days, the lubricating fraction becomes more dens at the bottom than at the top.

The OTHER WAY ROUND !

Id picked up some MOTUL 2T , where I shouldve  picked up MOTUL MICRO 2T , last christmass , or earlier , so A YEAR ago . ( or was it TWO .)

This gook seperated out , shake disolve - sit seperate out - over two or three months . About 50 % had blended , the rest dropped out .
So it was safe to leave lying around in containers like the other KLOTZ oil fuel , as it seperated oout . Much to my annoyance .

SO , to absolutely annoy me  , sitting on the bench , fully disolved , is the MOTUL 2T & Klotz , totally indecipherable as to identity Re Oil .
So , if your a cheapskate , the 2T is half the price of the Micro 2t , so if you mix it a year or two ahead , it should be fully incorporated -

But mark the containers . AND I dont know if its any good - or if its not good at all - And I cant see whats what - bar it has No nitro - perhaps .  ???

Quote
I was wondering whether it is possible that in static fuel containers, after some days, the lubricating fraction becomes more dens at the bottom than at the top.

INITIALLY 50 - 60 5  seperated out , overnight or sooner , months later it seemed maybe less , Id give it a shake and  instantly It'd reseperate - Stay mixed for ten minutes .
Motul 2T from motorcycle shop . ( NOT Micro 2T -. recomended as best for Yatsenko engines - to avoid ' stumble ' . At $ 99 a litre  here in Aus . ) The 2 T is $ 50 a litre ! .

SO , its taken a year , or is it two years , to fully permanently disolve / blend / incorporate . Seeing you asked !


Online Steve Helmick

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Re: Fuel composition inconsistent in the fuel container?
« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2022, 03:57:40 PM »
I'd subscribe to the concept of not having enough oil. Higher altitude requires leaner NV setting, gives lower fuel consumption, so less oil is going through the engine. I've always been a fan of burning more fuel for this reason.

I've also suggested adding Coleman fuel (or unleaded gasoline) to add run time if the tank won't hold enough, but that's on the order of 2 > 6 oz per gallon. It would be very reasonable to add 4 oz of Coleman fuel and maybe an ounce of oil, but normally more oil = shorter run time. Remember that a US Gallon is 128 fluid ounces, so one ounce added is roughly .78%. But that's if you start with a full 128 oz, which isn't likely, since you'll probably have tried a couple of flights before you realized you definitely had a problem. H^^ Steve
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