News:



  • April 18, 2024, 02:40:59 AM

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: Fuel Age  (Read 1698 times)

Offline Joe Rice

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 117
Fuel Age
« on: April 03, 2021, 07:48:46 AM »
I have two unopened quarts of Sig Champion 5% that are around ten years old.  They have been stored in a cabinet in my indoor shop.  I plan to use it initially to break in an Aero Tiger 36 and OS LA 46. I also have a gallon of Sig Champion 15% from the same vintage that is about 3/4 full and stored in the same manner.  Are there any rules on fuel age and storage with regard to usefulness?

Joe Rice
AMA 740106

Offline kenneth cook

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1466
Re: Fuel Age
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2021, 08:08:13 AM »
             Joe, I've used a lot of fuel that was around the same age as yours with no issue. Keeping it stored out of light and cap tight is important. If you develop funny business such as shutting off  considering your plug is good or the engine seems to be missing or running rough, you probably found your culprit. One thing about Sig is that I've found their plastic containers to develop splits and one day you find your bottles are empty or on their way to being empty.

Offline BillP

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 513
Re: Fuel Age
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2021, 08:13:38 AM »
Not a problem. I just flew 15+ yr old Sig 5/25 newly opened gal last week. Runs like new fuel. I have a partial gal of Omega at least 25 yrs old and it ran aok on a test stand a couple months ago just to see if it was still good. Ran fine in a Magnum GP40.
Bill P.

Offline Jim Svitko

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 694
Re: Fuel Age
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2021, 09:04:41 AM »
I have used "old" fuel with no problems.  As long as it has not been contaminated (e.g. moisture) from repeated opening and closing it should be good.

I have had plastic fuel jugs split at the seam.  The split is mostly at the bottom but it can happen anywhere on the seam.  The problem might not be confined to Sig fuel jugs so it is a good idea to check all of them.  The split is sometimes very difficult to see.

Offline Joe Rice

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 117
Re: Fuel Age
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2021, 10:04:31 AM »
Thanks for good info, guys.  I did have a gallon of Sig fuel with a very slow leak.  Since then I now store them in a plastic tub in the cabinet.  So far, no new leakers. 
Joe Rice
AMA 740106

Offline Jim Svitko

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 694
Re: Fuel Age
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2021, 10:19:54 AM »
If you have empty plastic jugs from Klotz or anything similar, keep one or two.  Same with empty gallon cans of lacquer thinner.  You will need them when you find a leaking jug.

Offline Dan McEntee

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6855
Re: Fuel Age
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2021, 04:04:57 PM »
Thanks for good info, guys.  I did have a gallon of Sig fuel with a very slow leak.  Since then I now store them in a plastic tub in the cabinet.  So far, no new leakers.

      I think the jugs can get stressed if the jug is dropped while it's still full. I see guys do that all the time, drop a just on the pavement or a whole case if it's too heavy for them to set down slowly.. Alcohol can get to the plastic also over a long time. I keep some newer empty jugs on hand also just in case.

    As far as age goes, I have opened 40 year old new cans of Cox fuel and ran it in engines that started first flip! I accumulate fuel as I get chances to buy it but try to use it in the order that I get it. I have run SIG fuel as old as yours with no issues. With the problems getting fuel last year, I was going through everything thing I had including "weed killer" fuel in order to keep flying sport models and such. I an finishing up four gallons of old Fox brand fuel that I mixed together so I could use it. Some Fox 10% nitro wit synthetic/castor mix and some all castor Fox Duke's Fuel 10% .  The synthetic/castor mix ran kind of funny when I ot it years ago with some stuff from an estate, so I set it aside. I mixed it half and half with the Dukes Fuel and it seems to rum just as well as the fresh SIG fuel I got more recently. I'm cheap and frugal and will try to use up everything I have for plain old sport flying. I save the good fresh stuff for better engines and contest models.  As already stated, just keep it in a cool, even temperature and avoid direct sun light. I keep it in the shipping cases as long as possible also.

  Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee

   
AMA 28784
EAA  1038824
AMA 480405 (American Motorcyclist Association)

Offline FLOYD CARTER

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 4458
    • owner
Re: Fuel Age
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2021, 05:28:20 PM »
You will get all sorts of responses.  It depends on storage container, temperature.

Old fuel sometimes coagulates, and the castor oil begins to form soft clumps.  These do not harm the engine, but will clog up the needle valve.

Before using old fuel, it is a good idea to pour it through a couple layers of paper coffee filters.
89 years, but still going (sort of)
AMA #796  SAM #188  LSF #020

Offline Brett Buck

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 13732
Re: Fuel Age
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2021, 06:42:31 PM »
Do you wonder how long it sat at Sig? I think if you compared it to freshly mixed fuel you would see a slight performance difference but nothing that would worry a stunt flier.


   Those insensitive clods, what with their routinely adjusting the nitro and oil content between flights by a few percent...

    Brett

Offline Brett Buck

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 13732
Re: Fuel Age
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2021, 06:53:47 PM »
I have two unopened quarts of Sig Champion 5% that are around ten years old.  They have been stored in a cabinet in my indoor shop.  I plan to use it initially to break in an Aero Tiger 36 and OS LA 46. I also have a gallon of Sig Champion 15% from the same vintage that is about 3/4 full and stored in the same manner.  Are there any rules on fuel age and storage with regard to usefulness?

   As long as it doesn't get lots of light, should be fine. As far as I can tell, as long it is sealed, or was treated reasonably from an open can, and kept in the dark, you should be OK. Heat-cycling doesn't seem to hurt anything, although it can damage a plastic jug. I use 15% fuel almost exclusively at the NATs, I run about a gallon and a half, and usually have a half-gallon left over. It can sit half-used in a can in the back of my car for 3-4-5 years, from 35 to 150 degrees back and forth,  and pull it out, works just like before.

   I prefer metal cans to plastic bottles - if nothing else, they are opaque. Treating it properly when using it seems to require a "one way" fueling system, don't just open the top and dip a syringe tube into it, get some fittings for the cap like this:

https://store.flitetest.com/dubro-kwik-fill-fuel-can-fitting-dub807/p29357?msclkid=cd7b8152124114057534e13b1ec2675c&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=FT%20-%20Shopping%20-%20PLA%20-%20INSTOCK%20-%20Desktop%20-%20Performance%20-%20Branded%20-%20NEW_GP&utm_term=4584757333941134&utm_content=new%20-%20gross_profit_lt_010

   This is plastic and aluminum, and will seal completely and not allow the fuel to "breathe", because it has an O-ring on the fuel outlet fitting. Put a filter in the up-line if you want, however, to date, I have never found *anything* in any quality fuel, and have run many gallons through as small as a 10-micron filter media and never had more than the tiniest fleck of debris from any respectable manufacturer (SIG, Powermaster, etc). Still put a filter in the airplane, of course, because even if the fuel is clean, the tank may not be and stuff can come in through the vent tubes

    Brett

Offline Joe Rice

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 117
Re: Fuel Age
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2021, 08:01:34 PM »
More good tips and tricks on glow fuel handling.  I've been out of controline for a sometime as you may gather from my inquiry.  Been flying two stroke single and twin cylinder R/C planes using pump gas mixed with Redline Racing synthetic. Leftover fuel goes in my weed wacker.
Joe Rice
AMA 740106

Offline Trostle

  • 22 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 3340
Re: Fuel Age
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2021, 12:57:33 AM »
A number of years ago (18 years), PowerMaster published five fact sheets on "Facts About Fuel".  Their Fact Sheet No. 5 was on "Storing Fuel for Maximum Shelf Life".  The following is from their two-page fact sheet:

"...one of the frequently asked questions is, 'What's the shelf life of fuel?'  The answer is both simple and easy:  Properly stored, model engine fuel will last almost indefinitely.  So....what constitutes 'properly stored'? ...  Contrary to many things you might have read or heard, just about the only thing that adversely affects model fuel is the absorption of moisture from the air.  Keep the air away from it, and your fuel will likely be potent longer that you are!  Methonol - the major ingredient in model fuel - is hygroscopic.  This means it's virtually 100% soluble in water, and absorbs moisture from the air like a vacuum cleaner sucking up dirt.

      [then there is a long discussion on keeping containers sealed so that the fuel cannot absorb moisture from the air.  Then, a short paragraph --]

"While it's true that the UV sunlight (or in fluorescent lights, for that matter) will cause pure nitromethane to deteriorate over time, it's our experience the once nitro is in solution and substantially diluted, the deteriorative effect is relatively minor. ...  While it certainly won't hurt anything to store fuel away from direct sunlight, it's our personal opinion that the adverse effect of sunlight on fuel under normal operating conditions is too little to worry about."

On the subject of PowerMaster Fact Sheets, these five fact sheets were two to three page affairs with the following titles:

No. 1  What's the oil content?
No. 2  Which oil is better - Synthetic or Castor?
No. 3  Nitromethane, the Mystery Ingredient?
No. 4  2-Stroke vs. 4-Stroke Fuels   Is There Really a Difference?
No. 5  Storing Fuel for Maximum Shelf Life

Some basic but interesting and useful stuff.  This was available from their website 18 years ago.

Keith

Offline Brett Buck

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 13732
Re: Fuel Age
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2021, 01:10:25 AM »

"While it's true that the UV sunlight (or in fluorescent lights, for that matter) will cause pure nitromethane to deteriorate over time, it's our experience the once nitro is in solution and substantially diluted, the deteriorative effect is relatively minor. ...  While it certainly won't hurt anything to store fuel away from direct sunlight, it's our personal opinion that the adverse effect of sunlight on fuel under normal operating conditions is too little to worry about."

   I would also point out that UV gets to the plastic in plastic fuel jugs, making them brittle after a while. This is particularly bad in the West.

     Brett

Offline BillP

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 513
Re: Fuel Age
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2021, 07:11:10 AM »
I had a chemist from work call his contact at DuPont Labs about this...maybe 30 yrs ago. He said the life is so long it isn't known yet and to keep it out of UV for the nitro.

Bill P.

Offline Dan Berry

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1061
Re: Fuel Age
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2021, 08:00:10 AM »
Every time I read about fuel 'absorbing moisture from exposure or through a plastic container' I am reminded of one of Joe Wagner's engine columns in Model Aviation.  He ran an engine ( a Johnson 35, if memory serves)  and got a baseline rpm count. He then added water- yes, water - to the tune of 10% to the fuel and ran the engine. The result was an increase in rpm. I think he figured that it was actually leaner with the added rpm. I ain't buying the argument that fuel absorbs enough moisture in storage that it affects performance to a measurable amount.
I will mention that when we were given an opportunity to acquire fuel that Joe had at his house we decided that using any fuel that had been opened wasn't a good idea.

Offline Brett Buck

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 13732
Re: Fuel Age
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2021, 02:33:38 PM »
I think he figured that it was actually leaner with the added rpm. I ain't buying the argument that fuel absorbs enough moisture in storage that it affects performance to a measurable amount.

   You are probably right on that one. But if you decide to try Joe's 10% water test, do it over high grass with and airplane you can easily repair.

    Brett

Offline Dan McEntee

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6855
Re: Fuel Age
« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2021, 06:26:01 PM »
  If you increase the content of the oil or nitro you will get the same effect, you have less "fuel" in your fuel and makes it leaner. I experienced this in my vintage dirt bike hobby. I switch oils for my premix to a synthetic that requires a lot les oil, and found out I had to re-jet my carburetors as the mixture was now significantly more rich because I had more gasoline in my fuel. I checked in with some others using the same oil; and found that they experienced the same thing. I imagine it is a lot less noticeable with alcohol because of the increased amount pf alcohol you have to have to get the same power out put.
   If you leave a fuel jug with air in it out in the sun on a humid day, you will soon see moisture droplets forming inside the jug. If I don't have shade to put the jug in out of the sun, I try to have a towel on hand large enough to cover the whole jug.
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee
AMA 28784
EAA  1038824
AMA 480405 (American Motorcyclist Association)

Offline Dan Berry

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1061
Re: Fuel Age
« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2021, 07:26:19 AM »
   You are probably right on that one. But if you decide to try Joe's 10% water test, do it over high grass with and airplane you can easily repair.

    Brett

Ha! Not an experiment I'm interested in trying.
I don't believe in abusing my Johnson.

Offline bob whitney

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 2248
Re: Fuel Age
« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2021, 07:51:42 AM »
  If you increase the content of the oil or nitro you will get the same effect, you have less "fuel" in your fuel and makes it leaner. I experienced this in my vintage dirt bike hobby. I switch oils for my premix to a synthetic that requires a lot les oil, and found out I had to re-jet my carburetors as the mixture was now significantly more rich because I had more gasoline in my fuel. I checked in with some others using the same oil; and found that they experienced the same thing. I imagine it is a lot less noticeable with alcohol because of the increased amount pf alcohol you have to have to get the same power out put.
   If you leave a fuel jug with air in it out in the sun on a humid day, you will soon see moisture droplets forming inside the jug. If I don't have shade to put the jug in out of the sun, I try to have a towel on hand large enough to cover the whole jug.
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

Dan, when i was  Flat Tracking 2 strokes some of the guys when they had parcel seizes from being too lean would add more oil just making it leaner mw~
rad racer


Advertise Here
Tags:
 


Advertise Here