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Author Topic: Fox 35 Stunt Fuel Requirements  (Read 4299 times)

Offline Russell

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Fox 35 Stunt Fuel Requirements
« on: September 27, 2017, 01:32:19 AM »
Did Duke Fox write the Fox 35 Stunt 28% castor oil requirement back in the early 1950s, then never update it with the addition of synthetics?

Is Brodak control line mix of 11.5% castor/11.5% synthetic an excellent brand to run or all the fuels on the market lacking for the Fox 35 Stunt and need supplements?
« Last Edit: September 30, 2017, 09:21:16 AM by CL-flyer »

Offline Don Jenkins

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Re: Fox 35 Stunt Fuel Requirements
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2017, 07:02:41 AM »
Most fuels today are either all synthetic lubricants or half the lube is castor, but SIG does make a 25% all castor fuel.  I used a 10% nitro 20% lube (half and half) and added 8% castor (about 10 ounces) for my Fox .35s.  I got several hundred runs on them with no issues.  SIG also has the AA Castor oil for blending fuels.

Don

Offline RandySmith

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Re: Fox 35 Stunt Fuel Requirements
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2017, 12:10:48 PM »
I would like to tell you there is one Stunt fuel formula to run in all motors, I said I would like to tell you that…unfortunately this is not the case, and will never be as long as we have such a wide range of motors and running styles.  What I will tell you is a good formula for the most common types of engines.  Make sure you pick a fuel supplier who will give you consistent fuel day to day ,and will blend fuel for your motor needs or has fuel to match your needs.  Stay away from any supplier who will not tell you the oil percentage, or who say one type works for all motors. I see this  much to  often also, It is unfortunate, but a lot of fuel manufactures will try to fool you about the oil and nitro percentage. One trick is to measure  by weight and not volume. Doing so, they can claim that the fuel is  for example 18 % oil , when in reality it is only 14.9 % oil content. Using weight  for ingredient , they can put in a  lot less oil and nitro . Other things are changing oil types, going to cheaper Nitro’s, and adding in other types of Nitro parrafins.

   So what percentage do you try? For motors like Fox .35s, OS Max 35s or the old McCoy’s and K&B’s, use a fuel with 26 to 28% oil content; preferably half castor and half synthetic, up to 75% castor  is OK. These  motors have very small bearing surfaces, and are subject to much wear and heat, most are all plain bushing motors and most have unbushed rods. They need a lot of  oil  to help cool the engines. Since these motors run hot, they need  extra oil to keep them lubed,clean, and to carry out heat . If you have one of these that is  in very good  shape but, is  just starting to get some brown or black varnish plating on it, the synthetic mix will clean it  up for you, resulting in increased life.  Do not use the synthetic  blend in an old motor that has a lot of time on it with all castor fuels; the synthetic will remove the castor varnish off the piston and sleeve and will in some cases, leave you with the worn-out motor that had to start with.  Also always try to NOT use  prop shaft extensions with these engine, as it adds a  lot of  wear on the crankshaft bearing.

For motors with larger bushings and bushed rods like to OS FP , Magnum GP series, Tower, and  Brodak’s  a 22-25% half-and-half oil mixture works the best.  For S.T. .46 51,and .60s and most all ball bearings Stunt motors, a 23% half blend works best. Again the Synthetic blend will help keep the engine  clean, and insure long life. If you use  all castor in these  types, it can stick the ring in the groove , resulting in poor compression and  shortened engine life. If you have a ringed engine that castor has gummed up badly, most times running the synthetic blend will free the stuck ring, and the engine will  return compression and  power for you.
   The tuned pipe motors like a little more synthetic and I recommend a 15% synthetic, 7% castor blend or a  20% half and half with 1  ounce of Aero-1 fuel supplement. Although many use 1\2 – 1\2  with great success.  This works very well in the  Precision Aero , OPS and Max VF engines,  Super Tigre  Thunder Tiger, AERO TIGER and most all of these type engines..

Offline Gary Dowler

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Re: Fox 35 Stunt Fuel Requirements
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2017, 12:47:22 PM »
Randy explained it well.  The Fox motors must have a lot of oil or they simply overheat.  My 35 stunt will start and run on 5% nitro 20% oil (50-50) fuel, but won't stay in the air for a full tank and have fun trying to restart it.  I added castor to bring it to 30% lube and it became very happy. The castor is a big part of that engines cooling system, carrying lots of heat away as its exhausted.

Gary
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Fox 35 Stunt Fuel Requirements
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2017, 09:45:32 PM »
Not exactly. Synthetic oils for fuels simply did not exist. The first synthetic oil additive to my knowledge in the late 50's was STP, which meant  Scientifically Treated Petroleum.  Andy Granatelli pushed it and we did use  it engine rebuilds in the Chevrolet dealership I worked in.
Those early engines, not just Fox, had all iron sleeves, pistons and rings and needed an oil that would get into the pores, flow towards heat and castor does this. It ain't perfect, but it works.  H^^

     It's certainly not unique to Fox.

     Fox did experiment with synthetic oils briefly. I used to have a Fox Superfuel can with a sticker about using "new synthetic oil". It dated from the 1966-1967 time frame. It was similar to what K&B did with "X2C oil". They dropped it in pretty short order for reasons I think we can guess (and is explained in Randy's fuel post pinned at the top of the forum!).

     Brett

Offline Reptoid

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Re: Fox 35 Stunt Fuel Requirements
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2017, 11:05:21 PM »
The actual formula for Fox Superfuel was: (the numbers were on the label of the can )
29% AA Castor
64% Methanol
5% Nitromethane
1 % detergent (Lubricin N-1)
1% Ignitors (Propylene Oxide)
Fox used a combination of synthetic (Klotz) and castor in "Dukes Fuel" and others up until they went out of the fuel business a couple years ago. They may have produced some Superfuel with an oil blend but we never saw any of it.

The propylene oxide was probably not very relevant as at 1%, if you left the lid off for more than 30 seconds on a warm day it was Gone.

K & B fuels were made in both synthetic and castor up until they went out of business after moving to Lake Havasu, AZ. K & B 100 or 1000 could be had in straight castor or straight synthetic (X2C) K & B 500 for R/C was half castor/half X2C. X2C was proprietary when it first came out because K & B had a development agreement and cost sharing with Dow Corning at the time. They sold X2C in quarts through local hobby shops for a few years. Later it was known to be UCON LB-731 which can still be purchased but only wholesale in large quantities
Regards,
       Don
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Offline Russell

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Re: Fox 35 Stunt Fuel Requirements
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2017, 01:39:12 AM »
"STP, which meant Scientifically Treated Petroleum". This meaning I never knew!

Things were a lot more easy and fun being a young teen and dad bought the fuel and we flew and had fun.
Sounds like buying SIG fuel and castor additive would be the way to go OR supplement the Brodak fuel with more castor.


Offline Reptoid

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Re: Fox 35 Stunt Fuel Requirements
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2017, 02:14:06 AM »
You can buy almost any blend you want from Ritchs Brew http://ritchsbrew.com/pricing.html
He is a supporter of many contests throughout the year including much of the supplied fuel at the Nats. and F2D team trials H^^
Regards,
       Don
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Offline Bootlegger

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Re: Fox 35 Stunt Fuel Requirements
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2017, 09:01:30 AM »

  How do you measure by weight versus by volume?  What formula do you use when using by weight?  I am not famiular with these uses..  Thanks a lot
8th Air Force Veteran
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Offline Fredvon4

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Re: Fox 35 Stunt Fuel Requirements
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2017, 11:22:34 AM »
Few years back I got a few of the 2014 re-run of Nelson N36c (combat) engines

In conversation with Henry Nelson, he mentioned care and feeding of my new Big Block engines

10%~15% Nitro, 18%~22% UCON LB-625 and a splash of Aero-1 helps keep the newer ceramic bearing happy

He also told me a lot of the Ro-Jet and PA engine Pylon guys use Aero-1

Randy sell it for about $16 per pint

I am not smart enough, nor fly enough, to know what it does.... so I took it on faith that it good stuff to add considering who suggested it to me

And just remembered ---the Late Marvin Denny sold me a bunch of his Fox 36 MK IV and MK Vi engines. During our few phone conversations,  I asked him about his opinion on Aero -1...

He told me he never had it when he flew the engines he sent me, but he did use it ( Aero-1) in his highly modified Fox AAC MK VII

Side note from Marvin.... he thought the Aero-1 let him experiment with lower oil content and eek out a bit more power

Marvin is also the Guy who schooled me to get a couple of tubs of Randy Smith Zink Sterate as a much better additive to dope for light weight filling of balsa instead of the corn starch or Talc he had used for decades

He also steered me to Randy for great NVAs for my growing collection of engines.... his thoughts were...the PA NVA vs a true ST NVA...the PA versions did better at needling in his slow combat configured Fox engines

Sorry for the obvious thread drift away from care and feeding a stunt Fox .35

I personally followed Randy Smith's advice on my Fox .35s ... they start and run very well with 10% N and his recommended min (26%) oil package. In my case I had NIB Fox engines that like the 50/50 synth castor blend

« Last Edit: September 28, 2017, 04:54:41 PM by Fredvon4 »
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Fox 35 Stunt Fuel Requirements
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2017, 02:29:07 PM »
The actual formula for Fox Superfuel was: (the numbers were on the label of the can )
29% AA Castor
64% Methanol
5% Nitromethane
1 % detergent (Lubricin N-1)
1% Ignitors (Propylene Oxide)
Fox used a combination of synthetic (Klotz) and castor in "Dukes Fuel" and others up until they went out of the fuel business a couple years ago. They may have produced some Superfuel with an oil blend but we never saw any of it.

      Technically, it was painted onto the can, it wasn't a separate label, so they came up with a sticker to mark it when they went to synthetic (briefly).

     Using straight castor or adding castor above 22%,  particuarly in 5% fuel, can have a remarkable effect on some Fox 35s. Going from 22% to 28% adds more power, sometimes, than going from 5% to 10% nitro. 

Both is even better - you can really perk up any Fox 35 for stunt by adding nitro in almost any quantity, but you had darn well have enough oil in it. You crankshaft life will be greatly reduced above 15% nitro, however.

      Brett

Offline GERALD WIMMER

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Re: Fox 35 Stunt Fuel Requirements
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2017, 03:11:04 PM »
A very interesting read :)
 I cannot add much this other then if you were starting off with an old Fox 35 that had run on caster and had marginal fit (that you would probably not use anyway) give it only caster. My example is an old Enya 35 R/C converted to C/L and stuck on my boys stunt trainer for them to plant repeatedly after the Flash 35 engine  wore out.
We used my usual Koltz degummed Benol caster and it had no seal and a poor starting and no power but swapping to a non degummed caster (from a health shop!) got us a good seal and good runs and I was almost ready to give up on it and put a 'precious' newer tighter 35 Enya on.
I know this is not the normal thing to do but did get more life out an 'old style' and worn out engine for the boys to trash ;)
Regards Gerald


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