stunthanger.com
Engine basics => Engine set up tips => Topic started by: proparc on September 28, 2011, 10:36:31 PM
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The Evolution 60NX has been out for a while now. What's the story on this guy?
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I have one, still in the box. My plans are to use it in my Pathfinder LE, when I build it.
I bought the engine because I saw the video of David Adamisin testing it. It sounded very good and seemed to pull the model very well. It is my understanding that the Adamisins were instrumental in the development of it.
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Allen Brickhaus, Jim Lee and the Adamisins have all reported success with the new Evo 60 stunt engine. That's enough "recommendation" for me...
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I too would like to report great success with the Evo 60. Had if for awhile now, installed it in a 64 ounce 630" Dixon/Palmer 46 size Thunderbird. Drop in fit for the 46SF that was in it. Grabbed an RSM 12x5.5 prop, Big Art tube muffler, stock small venturi. One flip start, RPM at launch around 8700 RPM. Solid 4 stroke level, easy break in the overhead 5 min 50 sec on 4.5 ounces of Powermaster standard 10% fuel. I know I could still fine-tune it a bit, maybe try the larger venturi but for now it turned a semi-dog into a reasonably competitive plane. 8)
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When I got my evo 60 it came fitted with the larger venturi . I used it but it was sensitive to prop pitch and size. Either off a little and the run disintegrated.
Went to the small venturi and it was a lot happier. I've also tried a head gasket with different nitro fuel. It is an easy handling engine with very good power, nice starting and great fuel economy.
Dennis
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Finally flew my Evo 60 earlier today, review posted on SSW. Very impressed with the run, soft 4/2/4 break with excellent power, VERY easy starting both hot and cold. Not overly sensitive to needle, ran well with smaller venturi and tongue muffler(no pressure). Coming from an old ST 60 diehard, this is a heckuva stunt engine! For under $150, and no work needed out of the box, pretty good deal! And did I say, parts ARE available?
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I looked at the Evo web site and they do not list this engine under control line. There is an RC version however. Looked on Randy's site and he lists an Evo .61. Same engine or different? Where can you get them?
Tx.
Mike
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Say Mike, try the Horizon Hobby site again. I used the drop down menu to request 2 cycle engines under $200 and there it is, 60NX Control Line engine, in stock at 139.99. Do not buy the R/C version, it will be timed different, have a remote NV etc. You could also buy it from Randy, I'm sure it will be the C/L version. The 60NX C/L uses a .46 case and fits the same mounts and mufflers as a 46SF. Despite the finning it is reasonably compact engine. It does come with a tube muffler, tongue muffler and 2 venturis. Use the smaller one. If you buy through Randy you might consider ordering a tube muffler along with the engine. The stock one is pretty large. 8)
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I looked at the Evo web site and they do not list this engine under control line. There is an RC version however. Looked on Randy's site and he lists an Evo .61. Same engine or different? Where can you get them?
Tx.
Mike
Hi Mike
The EVO 36 and 61 I list are both the CL version
Regards
Randy
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Mike when you access the Horizon site make sure you get the 60NX C/L they also make a 61 and that is not the same engine either R/C or C/L.
dennis
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Randy,
You list yours as a .61 and the other is a .60. The one everyone is talking about is the .60NX. Is that what you have?
Tx.
Mike
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I looked at the Evo web site and they do not list this engine under control line. There is an RC version however. Looked on Randy's site and he lists an Evo .61. Same engine or different? Where can you get them?
Tx.
Mike
http://www.horizonhobby.com/products/60nx-control-line-engine-EVOE0605
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We've had a chance to put a few more flights on the Evo 60. Still impressed with the nice stunt run, friendly character, and overall performance of the engine. Seems to like the 12 or 12.5/5 or 6 props on the Cascade stunter currently in use. I'm thinking a 650" or so stunter would be a nice match for the Evo 60, maybe even a Derringer(one of my favorites). I'd like to recommend this engine for guys looking for a stunt 60; good personality, very affordable, and parts are available.
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Randy,
You list yours as a .61 and the other is a .60. The one everyone is talking about is the .60NX. Is that what you have?
Tx.
Mike
Yes I have the control line 60s
Randy
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Speaking as a hobby retailer, pay attention to .60 vs .61. The Evolution .60 is in a 46 size case. The control line version differs from the RC version by not having a boost port cut in the sleeve. Same is true for the .36. The .61, however, is in a typical 61 size case, and only sold as an RC engine. Hope this helps clear things up.
Bill Bischoff/ Mike's Hobby Shop, Carrollton TX H^^
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We've had a chance to put a few more flights on the Evo 60. Still impressed with the nice stunt run, friendly character, and overall performance of the engine. Seems to like the 12 or 12.5/5 or 6 props on the Cascade stunter currently in use. I'm thinking a 650" or so stunter would be a nice match for the Evo 60, maybe even a Derringer(one of my favorites). I'd like to recommend this engine for guys looking for a stunt 60; good personality, very affordable, and parts are available.
Hi Bill,
I know you can answer this one. How does the Evo compare to a Big Jim, Randy Smith, or Tom Lay set up ST .60?
Thanks,
Bill
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Hi, Bill, you know I've used ST engines for quite a few years, and am still a loyal fan. This new Evo 60, however, offers similar power characteristics, runs are very repeatable, it has a pretty quick learning curve, all in a fairly small and light package. Plus, it seems to be very well made, with good parts availability(and affordable!). Plus, it runs on common fuels. Would I throw it in a 780" Patternmaster, and expect the same performance as an ST 60? Probably not, but in a reasonable-sized stunter, I believe the Evo 60 can hang in there very well, and give you a nice 60-size stunt run. Bring a couple props to the field with you, and choose which one flies your ship the best in those conditions. Just remember, I voted for George McGovern in 1972, so what the heck do I know?
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LL~ LL~ LL~
Hi Bill,
I know that you know a "little" something about ST .60sso that is why I asked. If it is a similar engine but possibly with out as much torque, etc., at least we have an idea of what size plane the Evo .60 would best be suited for.
It sounds like it is a nice new engine with possibly just a touch more grunt than a reworked ST G.51 which is good to know!
Thanks!
(the other) Bill
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Just picked up an Evo 60.
How did you guys break it in??
Mike
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Mike, first read Randy Smith's instructions for fuels and break-ins. That will answer many questions. We added one head shim to the Evo 60, used the smaller
venturi, and drilled out the tongue muffler holes one drill size bigger. Put it on the test bench, ran 6 or 8, three minute runs at a fairly fast 4 stroke, adding bursts into 2 stoke along the way. Let it cool between runs, and then went flying! Seems to be happy with regular Powermaster fuel(not GMA). Read the instruction sheet that comes with the engine; nice summary of what "works" well for this guy! That's about it...
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Mike, first read Randy Smith's instructions for fuels and break-ins. That will answer many questions. We added one head shim to the Evo 60, used the smaller
venturi, and drilled out the tongue muffler holes one drill size bigger. Put it on the test bench, ran 6 or 8, three minute runs at a fairly fast 4 stroke, adding bursts into 2 stoke along the way. Let it cool between runs, and then went flying! Seems to be happy with regular Powermaster fuel(not GMA). Read the instruction sheet that comes with the engine; nice summary of what "works" well for this guy! That's about it...
Thanks Bill.
I really do read the instructions, but I find the C/L gospel here.
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I flew me evo60 for the first time today. I put it in a stiletto 660. It bolted right in place of the ro-jett that was in it, of course I had to cut a hole in the cowling for the muffler this model needs a shaft extension, and I had to do some lathe work on my extension to make things work. Took it to the flying field,fueled it up for the first time, set the needle to a slightly rich setting and after a few laps it sounded OK so I started to fly a pattern, but the first flight had a little bit of a run away after the horizontal eights. Flew the rest of the flight level. Checked the fuel filter and it had a lot of junk in it. On later flights I got a few flame-outs. I am hoping that was from the mystery fuel I was using. If I left the ni-starter on the engine while flying, it did not flame out. At first I had a little trouble flooding it on the start, but after a few flights and finding a good needle setting the motor started to start fairly easy. it was running leaner on outsides than insides, and when it went upright it would get a rich burp, and the flameouts would come while the model was flying level. I changed from the stock plug to a merlin 2004 and it did not make any difference. Next time I will shim the tank and run some fresh fuel, and that hopefully take care of the flameout problem.
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Just a few thoughts: Like yours, mine did not run well with the supplied plug. Switched to a Merlin 2005. No problems. The 2004 is the plug recommended for no-nitro (FAI) fuel. Don't know why it would make a difference but it may. Fuel? I have found standard R/C fuel to be the best. Currently I'm using Powermaster 10% nitro, 17% lube with an ounce or Aero-Oil. I don't think this engine likes a lot of castor. 8)
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Pete I have an Evo 60 and I don't think it likes the fuel I have
been using , 10% nitro and 22% castor synthetic mix . The motor surges
to the rich side and wants to flame out . Glow plug is Thunderbolt RC long and
the prop is an APC 12-4 . Tried the a RSM 12-5.5 but lap times were too fast with
the motor in a fat 4 stroke. Going to try some PowerMaster 10% nitro with 17% oil .
Bill
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Pete I have an Evo 60 and I don't think it likes the fuel I have
been using , 10% nitro and 22% castor synthetic mix . The motor surges
to the rich side and wants to flame out . Glow plug is Thunderbolt RC long and
the prop is an APC 12-4 . Tried the a RSM 12-5.5 but lap times were too fast with
the motor in a fat 4 stroke. Going to try some PowerMaster 10% nitro with 17% oil .
Bill
Hi Bill,
It sounds like what Pete said. It probably doesn't like too much castor. It could be causing the engine to run tooo cold. Many of the new engines don't really like castor.
BIG Bear
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Bill I believe it because the first few flights the motor would flame out .
I thought that motor needed more break in time , going to use less oil .
Bill
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I wisah you guys would try a tank or 2 of Cool Power Omega fuel and see the difference.
Dennis
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I went out and got a few more flights on my Evo 60. Got some fresh Powermaster 10% nitro 17% oil fuel. Started the motor and as soon as I took the Ni-starter off, the motor quit. Another glo-plug and things seem to be going ok now. A couple of good sounding flights, then it started flaming out again. Checked the plug and it had what looked like some aluminum dust on the plug. Another new plug and set the engine for a harder run. Oops, left the ni-starter on again. Flew a couple of more flights, and then changed to the RC muffler as the airplane could stand a little more noseweigh. The run did not seem as controlled as with the chip muffler. The motor seems a bit restricted, I am only using about 4.5 oz of fuel a flight. After the motor settles down a bit, i will open it up and see what it does on a more agressive setup.
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I wisah you guys would try a tank or 2 of Cool Power Omega fuel and see the difference.
Dennis
I spoke to the designer of this engine at a local contest, who flew a plane with this engine. The engine was designed around 10-15% Cool Power Omega. He was running 15% and I am pretty sure he was using the Evo plug that is supplied with the motor. His preference for fuel is the all synthetic Cool Power. Based on the conversation the manufacturer requested that the engine be designed around RC fuel, which happens to be the designers preference anyway.
This is a stunt specific engine. The piston/liner, crankcase, and crankshaft are all specific to this engine (look on the Horizon website). Follow the instructions and break it in. If you are taking the head off, take the backplate off and swish the thing around in some fuel to make sure there are no chips in it. It is still a mass produced engine and this is a good idea with any motor, unless it's been blueprinted by a pro. Aluminum will foul the plug. After you've run it a few times some dangling chip may have come loose. A gasket set is $1.00.
I hope to buy one of these soon. I am very happy with the 36. The 36 is more of a compromise but runs well. The 60 is a purpose designed stunt engine.
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Big Bear speaks the truth: low castor fuel(like the instructions say), and add a HOT plug, and you will like the
engine much more! The Cool Power Omega, or the regular Powermaster(not GMA) both work very well. Thunderbolt, Glo Devil #300 and Sig r/c long plugs all seem to make the engine happy. This is modern metallurgy, and will not run well on Superfuel...keep an open mind, and try what other guys are using with success. We are more impressed with the Evo 60 with each flying session; going to build a dedicated stunt ship for this guy!
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Is it set a little too lean? I need 5.5 ounces for 6 or so minutes of flight running a 4/2/4 break with the small venturi. Pattern in 4.5 ounces seems a little too thrifty for a 60. 8)
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Mike G:
If you are using muffler pressure MAKE SURE the muffler is clean - else you pump loose alum through pressure line into the tank and potentially through the tank and motor. Check your fuel filter of signs of alum shavings...
The other posters are also correct: I would not let castor oil within 1,000 miles of an ABC engine!
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Big Bear speaks the truth: low castor fuel(like the instructions say), and add a HOT plug, and you will like the
engine much more! The Cool Power Omega, or the regular Powermaster(not GMA) both work very well. Thunderbolt, Glo Devil #300 and Sig r/c long plugs all seem to make the engine happy. This is modern metallurgy, and will not run well on Superfuel...keep an open mind, and try what other guys are using with success. We are more impressed with the Evo 60 with each flying session; going to build a dedicated stunt ship for this guy!
Hi Bill,
Thanks for the kind words (the check is in the mail). ;D
Build the Hot Dog for that .60!
BIG Bear
AMM
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Castor oil was used in ABC speed engines way before syn. was available. Yeah, Castor makes an engine ugly with burned oil, but at high temps it actually protects the metal parts as Syn. oil evaporates/burns. I will never use syn. oils alone. As an R/C and controlline flier, I've seen the results of a lean run with a 100% syn. fuel alone.
No thanks! Good luck if you use syn. on a lean run. At least Castor will not evaporate, and at worst, it will varnish the parts which are still intact. A little 0000 steel wool (on the piston)and you are back in business...
HIHI%%
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I've searched and found an excellent analysis of the chemical properties of Castor vs. synthetic... I knew why in combat, we never use straight syn. oil but this goes down to the molecular theory which goes beyond my electrical!!!
http://www.go-cl.se/castor.html
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I've searched and found an excellent analysis of the chemical properties of Castor vs. synthetic... I knew why in combat, we never use straight syn. oil but this goes down to the molecular theory which goes beyond my electrical!!!
http://www.go-cl.se/castor.html
Here is a link to the definition of flash point/fire point of lubricating oil:
http://www.engineersedge.com/lubrication/flash_point_fire_point.htm
The article that you cite was written in 1983. It states that the flash point of castor is 445 degrees and that the flash point of synthetics is 350-400.
The current state of affairs is that the flash point of synthetics is on average 475 degrees, with Red Line synthetic 2 cycle racing lube at about 507 degrees.
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Here is a link to the definition of flash point/fire point of lubricating oil:
http://www.engineersedge.com/lubrication/flash_point_fire_point.htm
The article that you cite was written in 1983. It states that the flash point of castor is 445 degrees and that the flash point of synthetics is 350-400.
The current state of affairs is that the flash point of synthetics is on average 475 degrees, with Red Line synthetic 2 cycle racing lube at about 507 degrees.
Perhaps the article is from 1983, but the Elements Table has not changed that much.
From Article:
"Castor oil meets these rather simple requirements in an engine, with only one really severe drawback in that it is thermally unstable. This unusual instability is the thing that lets castor oil lubricate at temperatures well beyond those at which most synthetics will work. Castor oil is roughly 87% triglyceride of ricinoleic acid, [ (CH3(CH2)5CH(OH)CH2CH=CH(CH2)7COO)3(OC)3H5 ], which is unique because there is a double bond in the 9th position and a hydroxyl in the 11th position. As the temperature goes up, it loses one molecule of water and becomes a "drying" oil. Another look at the molecule. Castor oil has excellent storage stability at room temperatures, but it polymerizes rapidly as the temperature goes up. As it polymerizes, it forms ever-heavier "oils" that are rich in esters. These esters do not even begin to decompose until the temperature hits about 650 degrees F (343 deg C). Castor oil forms huge molecular structures at these elevated temperatures - in other words, as the temperature goes up, the castor oil exposed to these temperatures responds by becoming an even better lubricant!
Unfortunately, the end byproduct of this process is what we refer to as "varnish." So, you can't have everything, but you can come close by running a mixture of castor oil with polyalkylene glycol like Union Carbide's UCON, or their MA 731. This mixture has some synergistic properties, or better properties than either product had alone. As an interesting sidelight, castor oil can be stabilized to a degree by the addition of Vitamin E (Tocopherol) in small quantities, but if you make it too stable it would no longer offer the unusual high temperature protection that it did before."
I have not found anything yet in the syn's that offer this kind of protection...Many high-end engine manufacturers (and engine tunning experts) do not want you to use anything other than Castor in the fuel fixture and no less than 22% oil...
But I admit, some are on the syn. side and swear by it. And others, like me, would rather have an engine (when I screw up) left after a lean run. Had I been on a syn. oil fuel, I may not have had an EVO left!
SEE POST:
http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=20093.msg235809#msg235809
H^^
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I'm always amused by these posts on oil. I'm not an expert but having run a lot of engines in my life and still having a lot of them except the ones that I sold I feel confident enough to say the castor oil controversy is overstated with modern engines. I have run Cool Power,Byron and many other low oil fuels in modern R/C-C/L engines for over 25 years with success.My last 10 years of flying R/C had lots of helicopter flying with CP Omega 30/24 and even CP 15/18 in the 30 sized stuff. Outside of CP green fuel dyeing the pistons green it ran fine. Modern synthetics are light years better then the old K&B X2C stuff that some might remember.
From what I'm reading some are now using a mixture of castor/synthetic fuel with a total oil content of 23% in Fox 35's. perhaps Fox finally put a decent alloy bronze in their shaft bearing.
Were we still back in the stone age of engines and modelling Fox Superfuel would be the dominant fuel, it is not for simple reason that Metallurgy has outpaced the need for thick cough syrup fuels.
Look, I'm not trying to stir the pot but I use synthetic oil in my car and it's 8 years old and runs perfectly. I use synthetic in my model engines and still some castor too ,. Most of the C/L community is using fuels of at least one half synthetic such as powermaster blends. Still I'm truly amazed at these posts demonizing synthetics.
You have nothing to lose by trying a tankful or two of a synthetic based fuel in a modern ABC/ABN engine. You just might amaze yourself with the results
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Rafael,
By all means use the fuel recommended by the tuner, whether it be a 60NX or Fox 35. I just want to see the synthetics get a fair reading and this technology is changing as we speak. The flash point (evaporation point) for modern synthetics is at least equivalent to or surpasses castor.
I am not a chemist, but I think the article states that with heat castor becomes a better lubricant. I think what is meant here is that castor becomes "thicker" or increases in viscosity. This is a pretty cool thing for 100 year old technology and predates multi viscosity oil by 50 years. Now there is multi viscosity synthetic lube for 2 cycles (Cool Power MV).
I never used it, but it sure sounds interesting.
Whatever fuel I run I make sure that I put it in a PowerMaster GMA 10/22 can. So far the engines seem happy and it keeps my flying buddies happy too! :).
BTW, a beautiful Stiletto, one of my favorites. Take Care.
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I've searched and found an excellent analysis of the chemical properties of Castor vs. synthetic... I knew why in combat, we never use straight syn. oil but this goes down to the molecular theory which goes beyond my electrical!!!
http://www.go-cl.se/castor.html
And that article is way out of date, Fact is if you use all castor in many modern engines you will see reduced power, reduce lifetime of the motor, stuck piston rings, excessive heat from the burned on carbon, poor performace and several other undesirable things
Randy
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Plugs? Castor? Synthetic? Percentage?
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I have been asked many times to help explain why we have so many things that can affect the run quality of Stunt engines. I will touch on a few of them , and hopefully help to eliminate some of these problems . Among them are tanks and fuel systems, glo plugs , fuel ,and overheating
What are things that make for a great, or bad engine run. We see these things most every weekend, and it is a very big point of frustration to many modelers. We all want our engines to run right, and it is nice when it goes through the pattern smoothly, coming on and off, exactly when and where you want it. Unfortunately, a lot of times, they growl , belch, shut off ,seem to have a mind of their own ,and are a total pain to deal with. One of the biggest causes of this that I have seen is improper fuel. Fuel is one of the most critical aspects in running model motors. Use the right fuel and you will probably notice nothing; the wrong fuel will have you grumbling, or worse, will have your motor screaming, belching and running with absolutely no consistency whatsoever.
Most fuels on the market today use a synthetic base and are blended for the R/C sport flier. These are typically very low on oil content, usually in the 12% through 15% range. This is never acceptable for our use in C/L Stunt. There are many reasons but the most important is the fact that we normally do not run our engines in a peaked two cycle, but rather a broad range of four cycle and rich two cycling. Any time you run with the motor set to come on and off in the maneuvers (like a typical 4-2 break) you are not only asking the fuel to lubricate the motor, it also has to cool the engine. The only way you can run in a 4-2 is to heat and cool the parts in the combustion chamber very rapidly. This makes the oil content critical, because it’s the unburned oil that helps carry away the heat.
Years ago, most fuels had only one oil ,castor. This is still a very good oil with many good but some bad points. Some of its good points; it carries heat out of the motor and gives a good plating action on all surfaces, especially when they’re hot. It also has tendencies to move toward hot surfaces, helping to protect them. A few of its bad points; it burns and sticks to the piston sides and the ring groove and all other parts that are hot enough, and will carbonize the chamber. It will stick rings in their grooves, freeze wrist pins and build up ridges on sleeves. This causes excess friction and heat and will ruin your motor in time.
The alternative to castor is synthetic oil and almost all fuels have these in them; the vast majority has all synthetic. Virtually all fuel manufactures use one type of synthetic; these are normally polyalkylene glycol based oils. They are mostly made up of alcohol started linear polymers , of oxypropylene groups. These are made by several companies and are available in a large range of molecular weights and viscosities.
This group of oils is the modern version of the old Ucon oils and also have good and bad points. Some of the goods points; they are very good lubes without containing any wax; they have outstanding load carrying capacity, film strength, anti-wear properties, are resistant to sludge formation, and will help keep your engine clean. The bad points are they give no rust protection by themselves, they don’t plate hot surfaces as well as castor and they burn at high heats.
As you can see, both oils have advantages and disadvantages to them; it’s for these reasons that they work much better blending together than they could ever work alone. Throughout many years of flying ,testing and other research have proven this to me beyond any doubt; plus you can see this for yourself. Recently, a friend of mine had a motor that would go into the pattern and lean out and act very inconsistently. The only change that was made was to substitute one tank of my fuel in the model. The results were drastically different; the motor now ran very smoothly, going into a two cycle instantly when the nose was raised and back into a four cycle instantly when the plane was leveled. This was tried back and forth both fuels; his and mine. The results were the same every time. I see this type of thing happen much too often, and it is extremely frustrating for Flyers to deal with. They often blame these fuel problems on cooling, cowlings, motors ,fuel filters, and unfortunately some don’t have a clue how to recognize or solve this problem. This is a frustration that you can live without!
I would like to tell you there is one Stunt fuel formula to run in all motors, I said I would like to tell you that…unfortunately this is not the case, and will never be as long as we have such a wide range of motors and running styles. What I will tell you is a good formula for the most common types of engines. Make sure you pick a fuel supplier who will give you consistent fuel day to day ,and will blend fuel for your motor needs or has fuel to match your needs. Stay away from any supplier who will not tell you the oil percentage, or who say one type works for all motors. I see this much to often also, It is unfortunate, but a lot of fuel manufactures will try to fool you about the oil and nitro percentage. One trick is to measure the oil by weight and all other ingredients by volume. Doing so, they can claim that the fuel is for example 18 % oil , when in reality it is only 14.9 % oil content. Using weight one for 1 ingredient and volume on the others does not equal 100 % . Other things are changing oil types, going to cheaper Nitro’s, and adding in other types of Nitro parrafins.
So what percentage do you try? For motors like Fox .35s, OS Max 35s or the old McCoy’s and K&B’s, use a fuel with 26 to 28% oil content; preferably half castor and half synthetic, up to 75% castor is OK. These motors have very small bearing surfaces, and are subject to much wear and heat, most are all plain bushing motors and most have unbushed rods. They need a lot of oil to help cool the engines. Since these motors run hot, they need extra oil to keep them lubed,clean, and to carry out heat . If you have one of these that is in very good shape but, is just starting to get some brown or black varnish plating on it, the synthetic mix will clean it up for you, resulting in increased life. Do not use the synthetic blend in an old motor that has a lot of time on it with all castor fuels; the synthetic will remove the castor varnish off the piston and sleeve and will in some cases, leave you with the worn-out motor that had to start with. Also always try to NOT use prop shaft extensions with these engine, as it adds a lot of wear on the crankshaft bearing.
For motors with larger bushings and bushed rods like to OS FP , Magnum GP series, Tower, and Brodak’s a 22-25% half-and-half oil mixture works the best. For S.T. .46 51,and .60s and most all ball bearings Stunt motors, a 23% half blend works best. Again the Synthetic blend will help keep the engine clean, and insure long life. If you use all castor in these types, it can stick the ring in the groove , resulting in poor compression and shortened engine life. If you have a ringed engine that castor has gummed up badly, most times running the synthetic blend will free the stuck ring, and the engine will return compression and power for you.
The tuned pipe motors like a little more synthetic and I recommend a 15% synthetic, 7% castor blend or a 20% half and half with 1 ounce of Aero-1 fuel supplement. Although many use 1\2 – 1\2 with great success. This works very well in the Precision Aero , OPS and Max VF engines, Super Tigre Thunder Tiger, AERO TIGER and most all of these type engines..
Four Strokes engines also like the blend, I have found that a 15 % synthetic – 3% castor blend works well for them, normal oil percentage is 18 to 20 %. This will vary some from engine to engine, but is a good starting point. Most like 10 to 20 % nitro, going up to 25% to 30% in the hot summer weather. Aero-1 Fuel additive can help 4 strokes tremendously, as these engines are lubricated mostly by “blow by” and can run very hot. Fuel and tanks are also very critical for 4 stroke operation. Make sure you have a tank that delivers fuel easily to the engine, as four strokes don’t seem to like having to pull fuel from the tank. Use as short a fuel tank as possible and keep it close to the engine. A lot of people use muffler pressure or pumps to help feed the 4 stroke engines. I have used OS VF pumps, Perry vibration pumps and Perry pressure pumps with my test on 4 strokes. I would suggest,as we do with 2 strokes, to use a Sullivan “Crap trap” fuel filter. They hold a lot of junk ,and have a very good double cone design, that pushes the debris away to the sides and almost never stop up. If you get a stopped up filter on a four stroke ( or 2 stroke for that matter) you can burn the engine up in one flight
When you use motors for the first time, you should also make sure you have the motor properly broken in. This will range from six tanks of fuel for one engine to almost two gallons for others. OS, for example, says two hours running time for their motors. A good break-in procedure is to use the same fuel as you will for your Stunt run ,and try to do your break-in on a bench; this is a lot better and an easier way to do a proper break-in. A diameter, one inch smaller than you plan to run at, at a 3 or 4 pitch, should be the prop to use. This will let the motor turn many revolutions more per motor run time. Start out in a very sloppy four-cycle for cast iron lapped piston and most ringed motors, slowly progressing to the fastest it will run in a four-cycle, then put it in a short two-cycle burst for short times. After the correct amount of time it should be able to run in a two-cycle without heating up and going leaner. Using 3 to 6 ounces per run with 5 to 10 minutes cool down time in between.
For ABC, AAC ,ABL, ABC-R and ABN motors, start out in a very fast four-cycle and about every 45 seconds; pinch the fuel tube to kick the motor into a momentary two-cycle. These types of engines normally take more break-in time than do their iron lapped piston cousins . If you can run the motor in a fast four-cycle and without touching the needle, pinch the tubing to lean the motor into a two-cycle for 20 seconds or so, then it should go right back to a four. After breaking in the engine with a few tanks of fuel , you can start using the needle to cycle back and forth from 2 to 4 cycle. When it is broke in you should be able to hold a 2 cycle for 30 seconds or so, and come back to a 4 quickly by turning the needle richer . If not, it probably needs more running time.
Plugs can also be a major cause of trouble, and poor runs. When you first crank the plane, notice if it goes rich and sags slightly when the battery is removed; if so, the plug is normally too cold. This is critical to getting a proper Stunt run.
Most plugs are designed to provide a colder range than we want in C\L aerobatic engines , and you should try to get the right range for the motor. Many days of testing and much time and expense buying almost every plug on the market has yielded these results ;Thunder Bolt R\C long, T Bolt #3 , T Bolt 4 stroke, Glo Devil RC #300 long, Enya 3 & 4, Fireball RC long, the Hobby Shack RC long, SIC RC long a few of the OS hotter plugs and some of the FOX long and Miracle plugs are best plugs for our use. In almost all instances, use a long plus, as they will be substantially hotter than the shorts, plus they are deeper in the combustion chamber and this tends to keep things hotter and keeps the plug elements cleaner.
A lot of times the plug problems show up as rich inside maneuvers and leaner outsides; this happens because gravity and centrifugal force ,forces the oil-fuel charge down on the element on insides, thus cooling the coil and pulls it away on the outside maneuvers, letting it naturally go leaner. I have seen this problem instantly cured by simply changing plugs. Please do not be afraid to put in a new glo plug , or try different types of plugs .
All of this assumes you have your tank height perfect (you did adjust your tank height, didn’t you), you’re right side up and inverted lap times are the same. This is important; don’t skip this step. If your using a profile sometimes you will need to have the tank center higher than the engine center. The 3 \16 to 3 \8 range will do for most fox 35s . Others will run on center line ,or just off of it. Another case of run problems are tanks or fuel delivery systems, which includes the tank, fuel tubing ,fuel filter, and anything else connected to the fuel system. When these problems arise in most cases, the engine changes speeds in flight, either faster or slower , and is generally inconsistent in the needle setting. This is almost always blamed as an “engine problem” when in fact it almost always turns out to be a tank problem, or fuel delivery system problem. I find most every time I see this , it is one component of the fuel system that is at fault. Either a hole in the fuel tubing, junk in the filter, a hole in the tank, a tank with an internal crack in the pick up or feed line . The next most common problem of this is water in the fuel. Water will give a very inconsistent needle setting, and will change at random back and forth from lean to rich. There are a few other things that cause problems with fuel delivery, muffler or pipe pressure will, most times magnify any little leak or problem you have and make things much worse than they were. A few other causes are an engine with a leaking backplate gasket, or an improperly cooled engine. A basic rule of thumb is to have a good intake area, with double the size of the exhaust area. Make sure you model (if fully cowled) has the air blowing all the way across and past the engine before the air flow exits the cowling. If your plane goes lean in maneuvers and comes back to a four-cycle slowly, it can be running too hot, you most likely need more oil, or less back pressure from the muffler. I have seen a lot of fuel with water in it (methanol attracts water) and this will cause erratic runs and needle settings. Always use fresh fuel and don’t be afraid to try another fuel if you think this is the problem.
Never try to put a brand new engine in a plane and try to break it in, trim and fly at the same time. I have seen this too many times with disastrous results. It is very hard to richen a too lean needle when the plane goes lean in flight. Keep good care of your equipment and it will usually take care of you; abuse it and it will most times let you down.
Now, a little more about fuels .For you guys who absolutely gotta buy the bargain R/C sport fuel…No amount of persuading will convince you otherwise; you at the very least need to add a healthy dose of castor oil. You can roughly figure 1.3 ounces will raise the oil content one percent (i.e. 13 ounces of oil to make 15% oil fuel into 25% oil fuel). This is not recommended and at the very best will usually be a guess, but it is much better than not adding anything at all, and I know people that do this all the time and get it to work for them .Example using Fire Power Cool 15%, pour off 13 ounces and add 13 ounces of Castor, this will be close to 11% nitro, and 24 to 25 % oil , this would make an OK fuel for plain bearing FP type motors, add a little more oil, and you have a fuel that you could run in your Foxes. The final thing I would like to say is to make sure you use an after-run oil between sessions and when you store the motors. This is another must do, because of the nature of the fuel we use. Then nitromethane or any nitropariffins burn, they leave behind, in your motor, acid and water, this, along with the water carried in partly by the alcohol, gets together and eats your bearing and other parts. Good quality after run oil is easy to get; don’t skip this step. If you can’t find a good after run at your local hobby shop, there are many available that are made by several companies…then try Prather’s. They make a good one and so does RJL and Aero Products. Do not use motor oil, Marvel Mystery oil; this is not after run oil.
Marvel makes excellent oil that can be used and as an after run oil and it is available from most auto parts stores and is called Marvel Air Tool oil. As a matter of fact, most air tool oils can be used as an after run oil; they are designed to fight corrosion in metal air tools and this is exactly what we are looking for. Another good place to get these types of oils are the large home supply stores like Home Depots and Builders Square type stores. Look in the department where they carry air compressor and paint guns. There are many brands of these oils so you see you have no excuse not to use them.
As for fuels, there are many good companies out there that will supply you with a good usable Stunt fuel. You will need to search them out in your area. . If you are using some of these suppliers, call them up. I’m sure most of them will oblige you. The model magazine are full of 800 numbers for fuel suppliers and the ones that I have mentioned come highly recommended; however, this is by no means all of them.
SIG for example has a very high quality fuel that is stocked by dealer all over the country; their Champion is 20% blended oil and with extra castor or oil supplements, such as AERO-1, makes an excellent Stunt fuel. Sig and I believe Power Master also make 20 or 25 % all castor fuels, as well as good 4 stroke fuel. Power Master is now making fuel for control line aerobatic planes, as are many other companies. There are more companies making good C\L stunt fuel such as S&W and others. I just don’t know them all and have not used their fuels in a while Keep in mind things will vary slightly, so don’t be afraid to try something new, or your buddy’s fuel if you suspect you have a fuel problem.
Randy Smith
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Thank you for the advice Randy, I have copied and added it to my LIST OF DOCS.! H^^ It is one of the most precise explanations on fuels that I have ever encountered/discovered. As I have seen the manufacturer's recommendations for PA, RO-J, Tom L., Nelson, etc., they recommend using a 50/50 mix. I use the same 50/50 oil mixture. I just wanted to explain to many folks that to stay away completely from Castor is not a good idea. My opinion and experience is only a quark in comparison to you and the many that help us, and continue, the transmission of priceless knowledge in the circle. The article may be outdated but it still suggests to use the best of both worlds, a Castor and Synthetic mix.
Thank You for teaching us/me, Randy.
Regards,
H^^
Rafael
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Thank you Rafael
I will also add that I personally use a mix of 75% synth, and 25% castor in the oil mix, In my PA engines.
There are people who use all synth. in their fuel with very good results, however they pay attention to use enough total oil, and they almost NEVER get bad needle settings or lean runs, that is the key to engine life.
In the FP LA FOX ST etc type motors I use a 50-50 castor mix with 22 to 28% total. depending on the engine..older engines like the FOX 29 35 and OS 30 35S engines get the 26 to 28% oil package.
And truthfully I would not hesitate today to use a 75-25 synth to castor in a FOX 35 with 28% total.
Regards
Randy
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HI Randy,
I was given a new can of Sig 15% nitro, 25% all castor. How much synthetic should I add to use it in an OS .30S or .35S? Or is it possible to get the content changed enough in this fuel?
Thanks!
Bill
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Bill, As little as 2-3% will be enough to never have to worry about the varnish and crud that castor deposits on you engine.
Dennis
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HI Randy,
I was given a new can of Sig 15% nitro, 25% all castor. How much synthetic should I add to use it in an OS .30S or .35S? Or is it possible to get the content changed enough in this fuel?
Thanks!
Bill
Hi Bill
Depends, If you have old motors that have a lot of castor bakes onto the insides, If this is the case I would just use the all castor fuel with 1 ounce Aero-1. If the motors are really clean inside I would add 3%, that would be 3 x 1.28.. or about 3 3/4 ounces of Synth oil .
You wouldn't need 15% nitro in Winter though would you?
Randy
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Hi Bill
Depends, If you have old motors that have a lot of castor bakes onto the insides, If this is the case I would just use the all castor fuel with 1 ounce Aero-1. If the motors are really clean inside I would add 3%, that would be 3 x 1.28.. or about 3 3/4 ounces of Synth oil .
You wouldn't need 15% nitro in Winter though would you?
Randy
Thanks, Randy. No, I don't know for sure that I would ever need 15% at anytime in anything other than a small engine. I was thinking I would have to add a good bit more synthetic oil. I always add one ounce of Aero 1 oil to my fuels. These engines I am talking about are not all caked up inside with castor, but are pretty clean.
Bill
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Hi Bill
So then for the OS 30 35S engines just add 3 3/4 ounces of a good synthetic oil, that will get you covered, you can also use the same in your FOX 35s or the Red Head McCoy you got from me
Randy
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Hi Bill
So then for the OS 30 35S engines just add 3 3/4 ounces of a good synthetic oil, that will get you covered, you can also use the same in your FOX 35s or the Red Head McCoy you got from me
Randy
Thanks, Randy!
Bill
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at the Dallas Fridgiddigit I flew my evo60 three times, Ran quite well except flaming out in the last loop of the clover two times, at least the flameouts are getting later in the flight.
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at the Dallas Fridgiddigit I flew my evo60 three times, Ran quite well except flaming out in the last loop of the clover two times, at least the flameouts are getting later in the flight.
Flameouts in the Clover-thats no good bro!! Check that tank. D>K
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With the chance that I may sound like a moron in consideration that you may have looked at the possibilities already, the fuel may be sloshing around creating bubbles. Since that is the only time that the problem occurs, the tank is almost empty and the maneuvers are somewhat violent...
I had the problem once on an old slow combat ship. I bought 15 "Sidewinders" from "The Bear" Bob Bearden. ( I do not know if any of you remember or know of him)
He was a really, really nice guy but smoked way too much for his health...it eventually caught up with him. Very sad...
Any time I did a sharp sequence of maneuvers overhead towards the end of the tank (3/4), my Fox would flame out. Not good for Combat HB~> HB~> Had the typical Chicken hopper (from Bear's supply, the real TRW tanks then...) Tried different engines, different tanks, same thing. A friend suggested that I use a smaller diameter on the output tubing, use a smaller/closer tank to the engine or restrict the venturi by .002 in. (yeah, right; a square venturi!!!) I added epoxy to the diameter of the venturi (very rough and sloppy to do). He felt that there were 3 things going on:
The fuel pick up was too far back and even with the chicken hopper, the sharp turns would cause the fuel to be drawn back from the down acceleration while changing from insides/outsides.
The fuel was still sloshing around
Not enough fuel suction.
If you can, I would also check for tank leaks and also measure the amount of fuel you have left when it quits...
What fixed it? Moved the tank forward and the epoxy...
I may have repeated all the things you may have looked at... My apologies
H^^
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I am assuming that WE all check for Tank leaks. Of all the tanks that I have purchased lately, they ALL have had leaks...
Good Luck
H^^
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Delighted with my Evo 60 now that I am using the correct fuel [ Powermaster 10% nitro/17% oil ]. Easy starts and holds
a setting well. Replaced a detuned OS 46SF with the Evo 60 and my 55 ounce plane came alive. Had to go to 69'
lines using a RSM 12x 5.5 prop with lap times at 5.4 seconds . Still may need more break-in as occasionally starts
backwards .
Bill
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Yeah Bill, even with the motor inverted all your flights looked like one flip starts. How much fuel do you think you are using for the pattern ??
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Greg I need to do more patterns with the Evo 60 to confirm this, but it looks like I am using 4 3/4 ounces
for the pattern . Thats with the motor running in a mild four stroke , 7900 RPMs .
Bill
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I'm using a bit more fuel in mine but similar RPM. In his column in Flying Models magazine Alan B. reports that he's launching his at 10,000 rpm with a Rev-up 12x5W prop. Might be worth a try. 8)
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Pete I just read Alan B.'s column and found it interesting . His model has more wing area than mine and is 10 ounces
heaver . I have been playing with props APC 12-4 , APC 12.25 -3.75 , RSM 12-5.5 and I like the RSM 12-5.5 prop the
best so far . Jerry Silver gave me this model called Arabasque 1 that he designed and built and was originally powered by a OS 40FSR . So this model weighing 55 ounces may be a bit overpowered by the Evo 60 , that's why I am using 69' lines which
give a lap time 5.4 seconds . My flying buddies are telling me the plane is flying well enough and stop fiddling and start doing patterns !
Bill
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I agree with your buddies, I hear that often as well. ;D I'm just curious if I can duplicate Alan's numbers as I too am running mine at a lower RPM. If so, that's good, shows that the Evo 60 is a very versatile stunt engine. 8)