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Author Topic: EVO60 with 0.200" C/L venturi in modified Score  (Read 2389 times)

Offline Matt Piatkowski

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EVO60 with 0.200" C/L venturi in modified Score
« on: July 15, 2016, 03:11:09 PM »
Hello,
I have repaired my modified Score that crashed this Spring with my hybrid Jett60 due to lack of power and RPM.
Why Jett60 was lacking power and RPM was, at that time, another mystery and many people, including Brett Buck and Randy Smith, tried to help.

I did not disassemble completely this Jett therefore I still do not know if my suspicion regarding cracked/damaged bearings has some merit.

Instead of spending some time investigating Jett,  I used the brand new EVO60 with the C/L 0.200" venturi turning 12x6 APC two blade prop.

This engine run well today on the ground and also in the inverted position held by hands (RPM:8,800-9,000 in both) but was slowing down substantially when the nose was pointed straight up.

This is exactly opposite from this what should happen so I am writing this to ask for your opinions.

The tank: 8 fl.oz. Sullivan with clunk, fuel: 10% nitro, ~20% castor and synthetic mix.

There is no muffler back pressure provided to the tank. Instead, there is an air ram pressure tube that suppose to provide the air ram pressure to the tank when the plane flies. Because I held the plane in my hands and was flipping it here and there, perhaps the propeller only generated air ram pressure is too weak?

At the same time, when the fuel delivery point (clunk) is lowered, the engine should increase the RPM as it runs leaner...

Please advise,
Thanks,
Matt 

Offline John McFayden

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Re: EVO60 with 0.200" C/L venturi in modified Score
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2016, 04:36:38 PM »
Matt, I believe the Evo .60 is meant to be run with no castor and 18% lube content. I will email separately notes I have collected on running the Evo .60.

John McFayden

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: EVO60 with 0.200" C/L venturi in modified Score
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2016, 10:28:16 PM »
Are you saying that the engine was peaked at 8,900 to 9,000 rpm? If that's the case, then it certainly isn't going to increase rpm when the nose is raised. Instead, it would go leaner and slow down...prior to seizing up. IF, on the other hand, the engine is rich enough and should lean out, then rpm certainly should increase. How much running time or fuel quantity run through it?

It would be real interesting to find out if these Evolution engines are made in the same factory as ASP/Magnum. At one time, Magnum engines instructions said to use 20% castor oil for break-in. Now, the instructions just say to use fuel with at least 20% oil for break-in.  I highly doubt that the metallurgy is any different. Rather, would speculate that customers complained that they could not get fuel with 20% castor at the LHS, 7-11, or Canadian Tire!  :o Steve
"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Offline kenneth cook

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Re: EVO60 with 0.200" C/L venturi in modified Score
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2016, 10:37:13 AM »
          I'm thinking the 6 pitch prop isn't being well received by the engine. I was having good success with mine on lighter pitched props like 4 & 5's. The largest prop I used was a 13x4. I also was using the tongue muffler which had the holes drilled out slightly. Which venturi were you also using?

Offline Matt Piatkowski

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Re: EVO60 with 0.200" C/L venturi in modified Score
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2016, 05:17:20 PM »
Guys,
Before we go any further in another quest to understand what and why is happening, let me tell you what happened today.
I have added the uniflow tube to the tank and tried to run the engine with the plane on the ground.

To my immense surprise, the engine run backwards (!!!) each time I started it and I tried six times.

It is impossible that the presence of the 3" of silicone tubing with second clunk in the tank caused it so it must be something else.

The question is what caused it and why.

Any ideas?

Comment: the engine I have has the Evolution part number EVOE0600. This engine is EVO60 NX R/C. The engine designed specifically for C/L (and no longer available in hobby stores) has the Evolution part number EVOE0605. I have removed the R/C carburetor and the rear mounted NVA from my EVOE0600 and installed the 0.200" ID short, blue C/L venturi with the C/L NVA.

Perhaps EVOE0600 and EVOE0605 have different exhaust timing and ports geometry therefore the C/L venturi and needle do not work well with EVOE0600?

On the other hand, there are many R/C engines that work fine in C/L after installing any C/L venturi with NVA.

Hmmm....

Thanks,
Matt




Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: EVO60 with 0.200" C/L venturi in modified Score
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2016, 07:48:38 PM »
Guys,
Before we go any further in another quest to understand what and why is happening, let me tell you what happened today.
I have added the uniflow tube to the tank and tried to run the engine with the plane on the ground.

To my immense surprise, the engine run backwards (!!!) each time I started it and I tried six times.

It is impossible that the presence of the 3" of silicone tubing with second clunk in the tank caused it so it must be something else.

The question is what caused it and why.

Any ideas?

Comment: the engine I have has the Evolution part number EVOE0600. This engine is EVO60 NX R/C. The engine designed specifically for C/L (and no longer available in hobby stores) has the Evolution part number EVOE0605. I have removed the R/C carburetor and the rear mounted NVA from my EVOE0600 and installed the 0.200" ID short, blue C/L venturi with the C/L NVA.

Perhaps EVOE0600 and EVOE0605 have different exhaust timing and ports geometry therefore the C/L venturi and needle do not work well with EVOE0600?

On the other hand, there are many R/C engines that work fine in C/L after installing any C/L venturi with NVA.

Hmmm....

Thanks,
Matt

The Evo .60 CL Stunt engine is based on the .46 case, while the Evo .61 R/C is a bigger and heavier case. Absolutely, the timing is much different. More advanced crank timing and higher compression ratio can make an engine prone to start backwards, and the more advanced the crank timing, the more likely it will keep running. But it will never run at full song in reverse.

Remove your uniflow clunk and make a "fixed" uniflow pickup from copper tubing. Look at it this way...since you can adjust the "tank height" by adjusting the uniflow location inside the tank, how can it work repeatably if it's free to slam around inside the tank? Second option is to link the uniflow tube to the single clunk...but I wouldn't do it. There are some cute ways to do that, and some ugly ones. The bad part is that the two together are so much stiffer. 

There are some similarities with Dwayne's thread on the piped .46LA, now that I think about it.  y1 Steve

"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Offline Balsa Butcher

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Re: EVO60 with 0.200" C/L venturi in modified Score
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2016, 01:50:07 PM »
Just a few comments: Tank...too big. you will only need about 5.5  ounces for a  pattern with a properly set up Evo 60. I recommend a 6 ounce metal uniflow tank, either Brodak or GRW (From Eric Rule of RSM) come to mind. If you must have a plastic tank, make it a 6 ounce and set it up as John Miller recommends...sorry, do a search on this or the other forum. It will explain everything.

2.0 venturi opening is too big. The Evo 60 user guide specifies using the middle of the three venturis supplied with the engine and it is .181". I like the one that is smaller than that. Prop is OK although I like the (no longer available) RSM 12x5.5. Some have had success with the Zoar 12x5 or 12x6 as well.

This is not a high RPM engine...intentionally. The hand book specifies a ground RPM of 8,200-8,500 RPM with a 12x6. That sounds about right. I launch at 8,800 RPM with the 12x5.5" prop.  Reliable and repeatable. For fuel, 10x22 is too much castor. All synthetic will work as will standard R/C fuel. The book suggests standard Power Master or Cool Power Omega fuel with 5 to 10% nitro. Believe it, do not add castor.

FWIW: There was a 60 small case Evo 60 R/C engine produced after the C/L version. The large case .61 is more common. Not sure if the 60 C/L and .60 R/C have the same timing. Both of mine are the C/L  version. If yours likes higher RPM it is an indication that they may be timed differently. It does not sound like it does. As far as running backward, it may have been over primed and fuel got down into the the case which can cause bad things to happen. Use less prime and it should not happen again. I have never had it happen with this engine. Good Luck.
Pete Cunha
Sacramento CA.
AMA 57499

Offline Matt Piatkowski

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My EVO 60 NX run finally well after changing the venturi, NVA and modifying the tank by creating the true uniflow setup (see the attached)
The pressure from the engine muffler feeds now the tank pressure line with the clunk and this clunk is very close to the clunk of the fuel feed line in any position of the tank.

I thought I had the uniflow setup before but it was not true uniflow. The tank pressure line was not fed from the muffler but was left open to the atmospheric pressure on the ground and to the air ram pressure in the air.

After the changes described above, I held the plane in my hands with the engine running, flipping it here and there for almost eight minutes and the engine run very stable and had a lot of power. I will work on 2-4-2 break now.

This engine (Evolution PN EVOE0600) has the exhaust timing around 150 degrees and it is small case Evo 60 NX R/C engine
Does anybody know what is the exact exhaust timing of the EVO NX C/L engine (Evolution PN EVOE0605)?


Also: I finally managed to completely disassemble my Jett60 and remove the shaft and both bearings that are indeed internally damaged.
         The friction in both bearings is randomly higher than it should be and this explains why this engine could not run with higher RPM and
         more power.
         Randomly higher means, that the bearings can turn smoothly for 2-3 revolutions and suddenly there is a resistance that feels like sand
         between balls.
         Next time it can be 1/2 or 5 revolutions and this "sand between balls" feeling appears again.
         I suspect the grooves of the races and/or balls are chipped or dented in the crash and some tiny steel particles pollute the bearings.

         I am ordering two new bearings from Dub Jett and hope the engine will run well again.

Lesson learned: never use the engine that hit the ground but looks good without disassembling it completely and checking EVERYTHING very carefully.

Thanks,
Matt
         
         



 


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