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Author Topic: Engine basics - venturi change  (Read 1382 times)

Offline Terry Caron

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Engine basics - venturi change
« on: May 03, 2014, 03:34:12 PM »
I've been bench-running a used OS .46 LA w/stock R/C carb (.220 I.D.) & muffler, no baffle.
It peaks a 12.25x3.75 APC at 10.4 K.
I removed the R/C barrel, replaced it with a plug, opening it to .260 I.D and it picked up maybe another 100 rpm.
Granted that's not the same as changing std c/l venturis but I expected a greater difference.

In simple terms, what should one expect  to happen when venturi size is changed?

Terry
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Offline tom brightbill

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Re: Engine basics - venturi change
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2014, 03:47:14 PM »
Terry, Too small.  A good place to start is .270/.272 diameter.  My experience is that with .260 range is it is just starving for (air) volume.  You were smart to start small so that you can open it up in stages.  You will be happier as you get closer to the .272, and maybe a bit larger if that's not enough power.  Your "mileage" will drop as the diameter increases.  Lots of info under the LA46 heading at the top of the forum engine section.  Good luck.
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Offline Terry Caron

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Re: Engine basics - venturi change
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2014, 04:39:37 PM »
Thanks Tom.
I've read the set-up thread several times and noted a variety of sizes in use.
I have this engine in mind for either a Brodak Oriental or Cardinal.

What I'd like to know are the various effects, in addition to fuel consumption, of changing.
I can guess some possibilities:
Variations in peak rpm, useable/suitable prop sizes, power band, altitude suitability, can be too small or too large so you get..........??

Terry
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Offline Andrew Tinsley

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Re: Engine basics - venturi change
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2014, 11:15:19 AM »
If you don't use a pressure fed tank then opening up the venturi will alter the engines ability to draw fuel for the worse! So don't go too big!
Many people use the "stock" FP20 venturi and NVA on the LA46. In fact perhaps the majority do. I have never understood why this is done as one loses a considerable amount of power this way. I always use The FP 40 "stock" venturi and NVA. It gets the job done far better! (The stock FP 40 venturi has had some variations in bore , but any of them are better than the restrictive FP 20 venturi)

Andrew.
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Offline Terry Caron

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Re: Engine basics - venturi change
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2014, 06:21:03 PM »
Your comments are reflective of why I brought this question to the forum Andrew.
I think I've read that this .46 LA/APC combo are at least somewhat commonly flown at 88-8900 rpm ground setting, which mine'll do no prob w/the .220 R/C carb barrel.
But I don't know if it's peak of 10.4 K is enough to allow for proper unloading in the air.
I thought that opening up to the actual venturi size of .260 would show a noticeable increase in rpm, but no.
I suppose the probably-more-turbulent flow thru the modified carb may be problematic, but I don't know.
Sure, I could try it and see how it flies, but it'll be a couple weeks before I can get to the field again and in any case I must rebuild the Cardinal "semi-kit" a flying buddy gave me today, for which the engine is destined.
Which gives me time to learn a bit about the effects of venturi changes and get a "proper" sized replacement if I should.

It may vary all over the place, but anyone have even a general idea how much rpm increases from unloading?

Terry
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Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Engine basics - venturi change
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2014, 03:43:34 PM »
I asked that question in another thread, if anybody had used an audio tach to see what the rpm increase was from static to inflight. Brett gave an answer, but I don't recall for sure what the rpm change was...maybe 1,100? If you did a search for "audio tach", you'd probably find it. 

I've mucked about with 'venturii' (restrictors) a fair amount, since I can make my own out of Delrin easily enough. On a K&B .40 (#4055), I used as much as a .312" bore with a .156" spraybar through. It was still pretty gutless, but certainly didn't need pressure feed. 

With the .46LA, I used as much as a .290" with a .156" spraybar through, but the plane had only 4.5 oz tank, and it wasn't enough with 10-22 fuel, even with only an 11.5 x 4 APC...and even at Tucson's altitude on 10-22 fuel. I put in a .272" 'venturi' and got the run time up enough to work ok. If I'd had enough ground clearance to use the 12.25 x 3.75, I would have needed even more fuel. There was no need for a .312" venturi, but it would have drawn fuel well enough, I have no doubt about that.

Regarding the smaller venturi sizes, there have been some reports of engines running wonky with such a setup, for the simple reason that there's no longer enough oil being run through the engine, so it got hot. I have not tried such a setup myself, but for example, Norm Whittle reported that his Stalker .76 ran much better and more reliably with a .330" venturi (replacing the .312" venturi). More fuel often makes a 2 cycle engine run much happier. Not always, but often enough to suggest keeping that in mind. That can be done by increasing the nitro content, but it can also be done by increasing the castor oil content...or increasing the venturi bore.

Terry...I'd suggest putting the baffle back into the stock OS muffler. You might experiment with drilling out the muffler outlet, maybe even drilling out the hole in the center of the conical baffle a little. They do a nice job of keeping the noise down and help control the engine rpm, just like the OS .20 "BBTU" setup. I used one from a .46LA on my Magnum XLS .36, and it was pretty sweet. Not much noisier than an electric. Used muffler pressure and liked it. Also used muffler pressure on the .46LA with a Randy Aero CNC tube muffler and it was also nice, but beware of leaks.   

Yes, your Cardinal will probably be nose heavy with the OS muffler, but a little bit of tailweight will fix that, and the Cardinal wing can easily carry a lot of weight. Narrow the flaps down about 1/2" to 5/8" and work with the control ratio to get a little more elevator than flap travel and it'll be good.   H^^ Steve   

PS: Read all the "pinned topics" at the top of this forum!
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Offline Terry Caron

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Re: Engine basics - venturi change
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2014, 04:41:19 PM »
Thanks for sharing your experience Steve.
After finding no benefit, I did replace the barrel.
IIRC, removing the baffle added ~200 rpm; no muffler'd add some too but I prefer less noise so I'll keep both.
FWIW, I measured the venturis on my .20 FP & .25 FP and they're .220" and 260" respectively!  
Who'd'a thunk.

Since the stock set-up bench-peaks at 10K+ on my 9%N/25% oil mix, a ground setting of 9 K-ish should give +1100 rpm unloaded ok.
I realize hauling a Cardinal properly isn't a matter of rpm only, as a smaller prop'd certainly turn faster, but that prop seems to be the most common recommendation so I'm starting with it.
And muffler pressure.

It may be that venturi variation is something that many experiment with to the point of their satisfaction, but there's no compiled body of info establishing even generally that "this will result in such, that in so".
It may also be that it has simply become practice to try different venturis along with fuel mix, props, glow plugs, etc. until a suitable performance set is reached which merely happens to contain the variables of "I run this and this and this......".

Like it or not, I may be forced to just wait and try.  ;D

Terry

Add: I've read all the pinned topics several times - great info and an excellent resource for us "less-experienced" fellers.

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