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Author Topic: Cox .049 starting, slow putput running  (Read 2716 times)

Offline Allen Eshleman

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Cox .049 starting, slow putput running
« on: September 24, 2017, 07:04:41 PM »
It's been awhile since I've run .049's.  The one I was using today is a Black Widow, given to me, on a nicely built Baby Flite Streak.  It ran well once.  Then it wouldn't run right and sometimes it just puttered real slow.   I had to stop it.  We closed down the needle but it didn't speed up.  Also, when I started it after a prime, it started backwards.  I then tried flipping backwards and it started forward. 

1.  Is there any advice about the very slow put put running?
2.  Is flipping backwards the standard way to start a flooded engine.

(Side note - my first 1/2A flight in 5 years or so.  My lines were fairly short.  I got very dizzy.  Thankfully, the flight was short and I landed fine.  However, I staggered around for awhile.  I will lengthen my lines.  Flight was very squirrely.  We have moved the control rod to the furthest notch from the elevator.  However, I'm thinking it might be a tad tail heavy).

Thanks in advance. 

Offline 944_Jim

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Re: Cox .049 starting, slow putput running
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2017, 07:13:18 PM »
 Hi there,

I have a Babe Bee with a Merlin head. It started much like you describe. It also got hot. But when it gave any starting problems, it usually putt-putted back and forth without breaking over top dead center.

An extra head gasket tamed it down a bit. Once it is running, it runs great.

Offline Dane Martin

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Re: Cox .049 starting, slow putput running
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2017, 10:48:05 PM »
Couple things, what percentage of nitro are you running? Usually it's 1 head shim each increase per 10% nitro added.
What size prop? Black widows like to rev up. Try a 5x3 prop.

If the engine sat, I like to pull the needle out and shoot through the valve and venturi with my fuel syringe to clean it out.
 Maybe pics or a video could help?

Offline Allen Eshleman

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Re: Cox .049 starting, slow putput running
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2017, 04:51:35 AM »
Yes, it sat many years.  I will shoot some fuel through it.  I'm using 25% nitro.  How many compression rings are needed for that - one extra or two? 

Offline Fredvon4

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Re: Cox .049 starting, slow putput running
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2017, 07:51:20 AM »
Sound like the Black Widow could use a disassembly and cleaning of the tank

In all likely hood the dinky O ring for the inside tank venuri tube to back plate is rotten
I would bet the pick up fuel line and inner spring probably have some crud built up.
Also might be a bit of crud, grass seed keeping the reed from totally sealing

If you don't have all the rebuild parts Cox international or ExModelengiens has everything needed
"A good scare teaches more than good advice"

Fred von Gortler IV

Offline Dane Martin

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Re: Cox .049 starting, slow putput running
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2017, 08:27:20 AM »
I'm agreeing with fred here. Maybe just try to soak it in a little tupperware full of fuel over night. That should really free up most issues, unless there's a real issue. If that doesn't work, rebuild kit from Bernie at Cox international, or Matt at exmodels.
If you have the high compression head, and it's been a while since you've flown, I think I'd suggest 5 shims to start. But I'd go with at least 3. You want 1 to start, and two for the nitro.

Online bob whitney

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Re: Cox .049 starting, slow putput running
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2017, 08:52:01 AM »
no one has mentioned the reed valve .the 3 problem areas with the cox reed vale engines are the REED ,the O RING and Tank leaks
 strip it down and start from scratch .check the reed .if not perfectly flat ,replace it .replace the o ring pull needle valve and make sure there is no crusty caster in it .take some tooth past or lapping compound and lap the tank and backplate together and clean .use a new gasket between the case and the tank might as well replace the fuel tubing in the tank,if it ran before than the comp should be ok ,just make sure the glo plug is in good shape .it should run on 10% fuel but would like 20 to 35 % better mostly caster for long life
rad racer

Offline Dane Martin

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Re: Cox .049 starting, slow putput running
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2017, 12:18:55 PM »
All very true. I was just suggesting to try the easy stuff first.
If it gets to be too involved, just send it to me. I'll take care of it and ship it back!

Offline Allen Eshleman

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Re: Cox .049 starting, slow putput running
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2017, 08:07:33 PM »
I found out that that it didn't have any compression ring. I added two.  Now it is running again but not well. I can't keep it running for much more that two laps.  Tried starting out rich and leaned out.  We used and electric finger - no put put running or backward starting.

Offline Allen Eshleman

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Re: Cox .049 starting, slow putput running
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2018, 07:35:45 PM »
I want to thank you all for the good counsel.  We replaced the REED, the O RING and moved the pick-up to the right place.  It finally ran a whole tank of gas today for my first flights of the Spring.

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Cox .049 starting, slow putput running
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2018, 08:54:42 PM »
We used and electric finger - no put put running or backward starting.

AAAAGH!   NOOOOO!  Not unless it has a brass prop driver -- most Cox engines have an aluminum prop driver.  Grind that against the aluminum case with a starter, and you'll munge everything up for sure.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Cox .049 starting, slow putput running
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2018, 09:23:32 PM »
   I wish I had a dollar for every time I've started a 1/2A engine with a PROPER electric starter. It just takes a 1 or 2 second burst with a starter, if the engine is set up correctly, and you are off and flying. We used both Cox and mostly Norvel engines at KidVenture starting them with small, 1/2A oriented starters and I never saw any wear on any of the engines and some of those engines have hundreds of hours on them probably. Just don't endlessly grind on the engine, which you shouldn't do on ANY model airplane engine, ball or plain bearing. This was done in the interest of speed and making sure the Cox engine ran the correct direction. The engines don't have that much compression, and with a good fitting, soft rubber cone, not much pressure is needed to engage them. I can still start just about any Cox .049 that you give me in one or two flips or applications of the spring starter, but sometimes the electric fingers are very helpful.
   Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee
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Offline Phil Krankowski

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Re: Cox .049 starting, slow putput running
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2018, 12:08:55 PM »
Sounds overcompressed.  For every 10% nitro add a gasket, 25% nitro typically likes 3 gaskets,  but some engines prefer 2 or 4.  With a tach you can determine the best RPM and then fly that setup.  It will also start easiest with proper compression.
Phil

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Cox .049 starting, slow putput running
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2018, 02:52:06 PM »
   I wish I had a dollar for every time I've started a 1/2A engine with a PROPER electric starter. It just takes a 1 or 2 second burst with a starter, if the engine is set up correctly, and you are off and flying. We used both Cox and mostly Norvel engines at KidVenture starting them with small, 1/2A oriented starters and I never saw any wear on any of the engines and some of those engines have hundreds of hours on them probably. Just don't endlessly grind on the engine, which you shouldn't do on ANY model airplane engine, ball or plain bearing. This was done in the interest of speed and making sure the Cox engine ran the correct direction. The engines don't have that much compression, and with a good fitting, soft rubber cone, not much pressure is needed to engage them. I can still start just about any Cox .049 that you give me in one or two flips or applications of the spring starter, but sometimes the electric fingers are very helpful.
   Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee

I just flip it with my finger.  I use a finger-snap motion with my flipping-off finger, and the engine usually starts right off.

It's really easy to know if it's going to start the right way, too -- if you flip it forward, it'll backfire and run backward; if you flip it backward, it'll go along with your wishes and run backward.  You can make it run the other way by putting a "pusher" prop on it, though.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Cox .049 starting, slow putput running
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2018, 09:12:25 PM »
I just flip it with my finger.  I use a finger-snap motion with my flipping-off finger, and the engine usually starts right off.

It's really easy to know if it's going to start the right way, too -- if you flip it forward, it'll backfire and run backward; if you flip it backward, it'll go along with your wishes and run backward.  You can make it run the other way by putting a "pusher" prop on it, though.

   I can do all that also, Tim. I've been running these things since I was 12 years old (I'm on my way to 63 as of right now!) I worked part time at a local hobby shop for over 35 years and have an unbroken string of getting customer cox .049s started on the first flip using whatever they brought in with them. These were all disgruntled customers that informed me that they were "engineers", or some other type of professional, and they were certain that here was something defective with the engine. Almost to a man, when asked if they read the instructions, the answer was no, they didn't need to, they were an engineer, or what ever. I then proceeded to use the prescribed starting procedure as spelled out in the instructions, and using their fuel, battery, and clips, always got one flip starts. I would set the needle, run the tank out, wipe it off, then box everything up and hand it back to them. I don't believe we ever issued a refund to anyone on a Cox product. I tell you all of this because the newbie doesn't know what you or I know, and sometimes the electric fingers are the answer for them. At KidVenture, we had all types of people as volunteers, including the people who fueled, started and launched the airplanes. Quite frequently, when they were introduced to me, it might have been the first time they were ever that close to a model engine, much less ever start one. So before we started to fly kids, we have to teach the ground crew. Usually, within, 15 or 20 minutes and the use of the little starters, they were like old pros. But like any other tool, it can be miss used and abused, and cause some kind of damage, but in my mind, that is far to one extreme end of the spectrum.
   Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee
AMA 28784
EAA  1038824
AMA 480405 (American Motorcyclist Association)

Offline Phil Krankowski

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Re: Cox .049 starting, slow putput running
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2018, 06:45:14 AM »


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