Author Topic: COMPLETE NEWBEE: Glow Starter and Fuel Syringe Question (Read 2534 times)

Brendan Eberenz · « **on:** June 25, 2018, 08:45:48 PM »

I am 2 weeks new to Control Line flying. Take it easy on me if my questions have been answered before.

The first plane for my 8 year old son and I is a Rugged Stunt Trainer. It has a K&B .28 Sportster Engine.

1st Question) Does the syringe we use to draw fuel out of the original bottle have to be Nylon? We are using fuel with 10% nitro. We found plastic ones with rubber gaskets that are cheaper, however, we didn't know if the fuel would degrade the plastic/rubber, mix into the fuel, and over time damage the engine. Any thoughts on this?

2nd Question) What should I be looking for in a glow starter? How much power should it give? Is it okay to by one that takes a loose battery or should it be an all in one rechargeable unit? Is having a power meter on the glow starter important? Perspective on a glow starter would be great. Recommendations on to a cheap but reasonable glow starter would be even better.

Tim Wescott · « **Reply #1 on:** June 25, 2018, 10:03:35 PM »

Quote from: Brendan Eberenz on June 25, 2018, 08:45:48 PM

1st Question) Does the syringe we use to draw fuel out of the original bottle have to be Nylon? We are using fuel with 10% nitro. We found plastic ones with rubber gaskets that are cheaper, however, we didn't know if the fuel would degrade the plastic/rubber, mix into the fuel, and over time damage the engine. Any thoughts on this?

If you're talking about a "regular" veterinary or medical syringe, it'll last for a year or two. It'll start out fine, then get tight as the outer housing shrinks from fuel and use, then the rubber will get gooey. By the time that happens, you'll either know you're going to keep at it, or you'll be done.

Quote from: Brendan Eberenz on June 25, 2018, 08:45:48 PM

2nd Question) What should I be looking for in a glow starter? How much power should it give? Is it okay to by one that takes a loose battery or should it be an all in one rechargeable unit? Is having a power meter on the glow starter important? Perspective on a glow starter would be great. Recommendations on to a cheap but reasonable glow starter would be even better.

For a beginner I'd suggest an inexpensive rechargeable one, unless you're really good at soldering. If you ARE really good at soldering AND you know the difference between a series and a parallel connection, then get a glow clip, solder it onto two D cells connected in parallel, and wrap the thing in electrical tape. Mine last for about a year's worth of flying (150-200 starts).

Tim Wescott · « **Reply #2 on:** June 25, 2018, 10:18:48 PM »

I forgot to mention -- there is a whole lot of skill involved in getting an engine started for the first time. If you're doing this all by yourself, plan on one or two sessions just to get the engine started. If you can do it in your driveway, do so -- if that'll @#$% off the neighbors, take it to whatever place you'll be flying in and do it there. If there's a flying club anywhere nearby, see if someone will help you get started.

Don't even put the lines on the plane until you've run a few tanks of fuel through the engine, or followed the break-in instructions that came with the engine, whichever takes more time.

If you already know this -- forgive me. If not -- I would make sure the kid is well away from the prop any time it's running, until he's old enough to understand about spinning meat-cutters. I started flying at about 12 years old, with 049 engines. They'll cut you badly enough that you know you should have been careful, but they'll leave fingers intact. A 28 is enough to damage you pretty badly, much less your kid.

Brett Buck · « **Reply #3 on:** June 25, 2018, 10:21:50 PM »

Quote from: Brendan Eberenz on June 25, 2018, 08:45:48 PM

I am 2 weeks new to Control Line flying. Take it easy on me if my questions have been answered before.

The first plane for my 8 year old son and I is a Rugged Stunt Trainer. It has a K&B .28 Sportster Engine.

1st Question) Does the syringe we use to draw fuel out of the original bottle have to be Nylon? We are using fuel with 10% nitro. We found plastic ones with rubber gaskets that are cheaper, however, we didn't know if the fuel would degrade the plastic/rubber, mix into the fuel, and over time damage the engine. Any thoughts on this?

The usual 5 ounce horse syringe is fine. I was unaware that there were such things as nylon syringes, most or some sort of polypropylene, which is almost immune to fuel components. As noted, the black rubber stopper will eventually swell up and wear, then start leaking, but then you replace it with a new one, or get the Jim Lee unit and use the red silicone o-ring, which lasts almost indefinitely.

You probably want a "catheter tip" type, then use the large silicone tubing with medium inserted into the end to make it. The tip is much larger than the typical type used to hold needles (Luer lock), so the fuel goes in and out much more easily.

https://www.healthykin.com/p-5113-monoject-140-ml-piston-syringe.aspx

Quote

2nd Question) What should I be looking for in a glow starter? How much power should it give? Is it okay to by one that takes a loose battery or should it be an all in one rechargeable unit? Is having a power meter on the glow starter important? Perspective on a glow starter would be great. Recommendations on to a cheap but reasonable glow starter would be even better.

The meter is essentially useless. The cheapest possible method is to go to a discount store, buy the cheapest alkaline D cells, wire 4 of them together by soldering all the positives together with heavy copper wire (like the ground line of Romex household wiring), solder on a glow plug clip with leads about 2-3 feet long. Then wrap the battery in duck tape heavily for insulation. It will last a very long time and is a very powerful source. When it finally dies, cut off the leads, toss the batteries, repeat.

http://www.sonictronics.com/xcart/product.php?productid=16224&cat=330&page=1

Otherwise, I like the McDaniel Ni-Starter, the shortest version. Get two of them and the charger, and you are set for years.

http://www.sonictronics.com/xcart/product.php?productid=16408&cat=418&page=1

Brett

Fredvon4 · « **Reply #4 on:** June 26, 2018, 02:16:38 PM »

I have sport flown since 2012 with Tractor Supply Horse (2 and 5 oz) medical syringes...they are cheap and when they get hard I just buy 4 more at like $1.98

Same with Wally World $0.88 turkey baster syringes...I buy them 10 at a time and use for fueling and gluing then pitch in the trash

Glow power can be very cheap or pretty expensive..... 2 to 4 D cell batteries in parallel will last a full year of every weekend starting

search Glow starters on this site and you can read for days..... Then you will want a Tachometer, and then a power panel and you will be hooked with gadgets....have fun...it is a long long journey!

Paul Wood · « **Reply #5 on:** June 26, 2018, 04:27:43 PM »

I agree with the above statements. Here is a photo of the glow battery setup I use. It may be hard to find the battery holder now. This was from the days of Radio Shack. If you do find one, it may be pre-wired for a series setup. I changed the wiring to a parallel setup. The suggestion to wire directly to the battery and wrap with electrical tape will work fine. I find the dry cells provide more current than the re-chargeable batteries and they last forever.

Welcome to the hobby. I've been doing this for almost 60 years. Love it!

Paul

Brendan Eberenz · « **Reply #6 on:** June 27, 2018, 07:13:42 PM »

Hey guys. Thanks for all the great information. It is exactly what I was looking for. My father in law does soldering and I am a Mr. Fix It, so making my own glow starter may be very doable. As for being connected to a group, I just so happen to live in Carmichaels, PA, home of Brodak manufactured planes. There is a local flying group and my son and I are getting in with them. Plus our yard has a good flat spot here in the country where we can fly on our own time. Thanks again for the help.

Ken Culbertson · « **Reply #7 on:** June 27, 2018, 07:50:03 PM »

Quote from: Brendan Eberenz on June 27, 2018, 07:13:42 PM

Hey guys. Thanks for all the great information. It is exactly what I was looking for. My father in law does soldering and I am a Mr. Fix It, so making my own glow starter may be very doable. As for being connected to a group, I just so happen to live in Carmichaels, PA, home of Brodak manufactured planes. There is a local flying group and my son and I are getting in with them. Plus our yard has a good flat spot here in the country where we can fly on our own time. Thanks again for the help.

My biggest regret in life is not buying a good flat spot in the country when I had the chance.

Welcome

Brendan Eberenz · « **Reply #8 on:** June 27, 2018, 08:21:47 PM »

Somehow, despite living in the mountains of Southwest Pennsylvania, my yard settles into a flat spot big enough to fly CL. Of coarse it floods when there is a big storm, but I don't see myself flying in that kind of rain :-)

As for glow starter options, I found A 2 D Battery system with a glow plug clip. A picture is attached. The cost is $21. I like it because compared to some of the suggested options (directly soldering batteries together), it offers the ease of swapping out batteries. My two questions with this model are:

1) Will a 2 battery system (as compared to 4 batteries) give me enough juice to start most varieties of CL engines?
2) Is the glow plug clip compatible with most varieties of CL engines?

I ask these things because I want to make sure that as my engines and CL interests diversify, I have basic tools that are not limited in application. If I need to look for a glow starter that is more multi-purpose, then I would rather buy that now and avoid disappointment down the road. Any concerns before making this purchase?

Dan McEntee · « **Reply #9 on:** June 27, 2018, 08:39:53 PM »

Quote from: Brendan Eberenz on June 27, 2018, 08:21:47 PM

Somehow, despite living in the mountains of Southwest Pennsylvania, my yard settles into a flat spot big enough to fly CL. Of coarse it floods when there is a big storm, but I don't see myself flying in that kind of rain :-)

As for glow starter options, I found A 2 D Battery system with a glow plug clip. A picture is attached. The cost is $21. I like it because compared to some of the suggested options (directly soldering batteries together), it offers the ease of swapping out batteries. My two questions with this model are:

1) Will a 2 battery system (as compared to 4 batteries) give me enough juice to start most varieties of CL engines?
2) Is the glow plug clip compatible with most varieties of CL engines?

I ask these things because I want to make sure that as my engines and CL interests diversify, I have basic tools that are not limited in application. If I need to look for a glow starter that is more multi-purpose, then I would rather buy that now and avoid disappointment down the road. Any concerns before making this purchase?

Hi Brendan;
Two D cells will work just fine, just for not quite as long. Four will last you at least a year, two maybe six months! Depends on how much you fly and how long it takes you to start engines. Just make sure you are connecting them in parallel.The clips you show will work OK if you have an exposed cylinder and head like on a profile. For a cowled in engine, you would need to be able to change to a plug on type connector. Keep the wire length to a bout two feet or so. Experiment with different brands of batteries to see which gives you the most drive and lasts the longest
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee

944_Jim · « **Reply #10 on:** June 27, 2018, 09:28:46 PM »

Hi Brendan,

I fly small...Cox .049, AP Wasp .061, up to a twin .074 Mosquito.
So I say the following just to show you can start small and scale up as desired on your terms with a little creativity:

I'm cheap...and I wanted to start low dollar. I made my battery box from 1/8" plywood. It literally is two clamshell, or 5-sided boxes/halves that each have brass tacks with foam underneath (for springs) for battery contacts. The contacts get squished to the batteries (4 side by side in parallel) when I place the batteries in and ziptie shut. All contacts come out to a lamp cord that was soldered to each tack and terminates in alligator clips. Battery replacement is simply cut ziptie, open, replace batteries, ziptie again. This thing is UGLY!

This worked fine until I wanted a pit box for an electric starter, tools, extra props, extra glow heads/plugs, fuel, 12 volt battery...and a power panel. I don't regret scaling up. My pit box makes short work of starting my twin .074 Norvel-powered DH Mosquito.

For the $ part you showed...

You may want to check eBay. I just looked and found starter kits that had two T-wrenches, bottle, and rechargeable glow "starter."

There are also glow "starters" that have built-in pulse regulators inline on the wire. These get connected to a small 12 volt battery like in security/emergency lights. I don't know how well they hold up, but can see how this would be a good way to get the benefit of a power panel (adjustable glow plug output) without actually having a power panel.

Enjoy your entry...I hope your boy does too! Mine bailed on me.
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F142270476910

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F292597307550

Tim Wescott · « **Reply #11 on:** June 27, 2018, 10:53:18 PM »

Quote from: Brendan Eberenz on June 27, 2018, 08:21:47 PM

Somehow, despite living in the mountains of Southwest Pennsylvania, my yard settles into a flat spot big enough to fly CL. Of coarse it floods when there is a big storm, but I don't see myself flying in that kind of rain :-)

https://outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=3456

Quote from: Brendan Eberenz on June 27, 2018, 08:21:47 PM

As for glow starter options, I found A 2 D Battery system with a glow plug clip. A picture is attached. The cost is $21. I like it because compared to some of the suggested options (directly soldering batteries together), it offers the ease of swapping out batteries. My two questions with this model are:

1) Will a 2 battery system (as compared to 4 batteries) give me enough juice to start most varieties of CL engines?
2) Is the glow plug clip compatible with most varieties of CL engines?

I ask these things because I want to make sure that as my engines and CL interests diversify, I have basic tools that are not limited in application. If I need to look for a glow starter that is more multi-purpose, then I would rather buy that now and avoid disappointment down the road. Any concerns before making this purchase?

Well, yes, but. Glow plugs take a lot of current, and you aren't starting with much voltage. Skinny wires drop voltage at high currents. So do poor connections at the battery terminals. A big part of the reason I like a soldered-together battery is because it keeps the resistance low.

A good rechargeable ni-starter should be less expensive and should work better.

Brett Buck · « **Reply #12 on:** June 28, 2018, 09:14:43 AM »

Quote from: Brendan Eberenz on June 27, 2018, 08:21:47 PM

Somehow, despite living in the mountains of Southwest Pennsylvania, my yard settles into a flat spot big enough to fly CL. Of coarse it floods when there is a big storm, but I don't see myself flying in that kind of rain :-)

As for glow starter options, I found A 2 D Battery system with a glow plug clip. A picture is attached. The cost is $21. I like it because compared to some of the suggested options (directly soldering batteries together), it offers the ease of swapping out batteries. My two questions with this model are:

1) Will a 2 battery system (as compared to 4 batteries) give me enough juice to start most varieties of CL engines?
2) Is the glow plug clip compatible with most varieties of CL engines?

I ask these things because I want to make sure that as my engines and CL interests diversify, I have basic tools that are not limited in application. If I need to look for a glow starter that is more multi-purpose, then I would rather buy that now and avoid disappointment down the road. Any concerns before making this purchase?

Yes. For just a little more you can get a Ni-starter and charger, and soldering batteries together is *vastly* less expensive. I am also concerned about trying to draw 3-4 amps out of a battery box that you are having to flop around all the time. At the very least, you are going to find you need to wrap it with tape to make sure the batteries do not move around or fall out. It's not much of a step to just forget the box and, again, solder them together, which will make it bulletproof.

Brett

p.s. Sonic-Tronics is having a 20% off sale until the 9th of July, that appears to put a Ni-Starter +charger at about $1 more than your D battery box, so it's no-brainer to get the Ni-Starter.

Author Topic: COMPLETE NEWBEE: Glow Starter and Fuel Syringe Question (Read 2534 times)

Brendan Eberenz

COMPLETE NEWBEE: Glow Starter and Fuel Syringe Question

Tim Wescott

Re: COMPLETE NEWBEE: Glow Starter and Fuel Syringe Question

Tim Wescott

Re: COMPLETE NEWBEE: Glow Starter and Fuel Syringe Question

Brett Buck

Re: COMPLETE NEWBEE: Glow Starter and Fuel Syringe Question

Fredvon4

Re: COMPLETE NEWBEE: Glow Starter and Fuel Syringe Question

Paul Wood

Re: COMPLETE NEWBEE: Glow Starter and Fuel Syringe Question

Brendan Eberenz

Re: COMPLETE NEWBEE: Glow Starter and Fuel Syringe Question

Ken Culbertson

Re: COMPLETE NEWBEE: Glow Starter and Fuel Syringe Question

Brendan Eberenz

Re: COMPLETE NEWBEE: Glow Starter and Fuel Syringe Question

Dan McEntee

Re: COMPLETE NEWBEE: Glow Starter and Fuel Syringe Question

944_Jim

Re: COMPLETE NEWBEE: Glow Starter and Fuel Syringe Question

Tim Wescott

Re: COMPLETE NEWBEE: Glow Starter and Fuel Syringe Question

Brett Buck

Re: COMPLETE NEWBEE: Glow Starter and Fuel Syringe Question