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Author Topic: Castor in AAC engines  (Read 2013 times)

Online Brett Buck

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Castor in AAC engines
« on: April 30, 2018, 02:24:57 PM »
I got another reminder about the use of excessive castor in AAC engines this weekend. A gentleman asked for assistance with his Jett76 that was "binding up" in the cool LA morning conditions we will euphemistically refer to as "fog" when attempting to burp it. I went over, and it was perfectly free through the bdc, and squeaking and "sticking" as it came up on compression. Usually, this is caused be excessive raw fuel washing out the oil, but it was happening far too low in the stroke and with only tiny amounts of prime. We got it to pop a few times but for the most part it would just stick coming up on compression, and was about impossible to back-bump because it would stop before it it got enough pressure to fire.

   I had to go fly my flight, but then afterwards, in further discussion, he was taking 18% oil (50/50 fuel) and adding 7 ounces of castor, which makes the oil content roughly 24% and mostly castor. Since it was clear we couldn't prime it enough through the crankcase without binding it up from drag, I resorted to the old 40VF burp trick of removing the glow plug and priming it directly into the cylinder. While doing this, large amounts of varnish were found all over the engine and the glow plug was stained almost completely black from castor varnish. This was the tip-off, the engine had varnished up on the excessive castor and reduced the already very tight clearances, and become "sticky" in the cool morning air with cold fuel on it, and that's what was binding.

     After a few tries with increasing amounts of prime we got it running on my fuel (15% Powermaster "Air" straight out of the can), and no problem, ran fine (and REALLY LOUD). We had him run it for a few minutes, and afterwards it was free as it could be and felt normal, hot and cold. He was sent off witha can of proper fuel and  instructions to run 18% oil fuel with mostly synthetic, no manipulation, and expect the run to change for about the first gallon as the varnish is slowly reduced.

   The point of all this is that you do not need and in some cases cannot tolerate excessive amounts of castor and the varnish it causes, in AAC engines. The varnish will build up to the point you are reducing the clearances to the extent that it will cause operational issues. Randy's fuel recommendations (pinned at the top) are very good - if *anyone actually read them before they asked the many questions that are asked* - but as long as you are reasonable confident you will not get too lean, you can probably and should probably be able to get away with even less castor than suggested in modern AAC engines. I expect the problem is not nearly as bad in ABC/ABN engines because the cold tolerances are larger. You do get the same oil drag issues when it is running but you can use that to manipulate the run characteristics to some degree.

   Brett

p.s. the alternative, possibly superior, solution would be to take the engine apart and crock-pot it to clean it back to the original conditions. That was contraindicated in this case because it would have required someone with less-than-entirely-solid skill set to successfully disassemble and reassembly it properly, clean or not. That's no indictment of this particular gentleman, most of the people who *do* take their engines apart don't know how to do it either, and I know at least 2 cases of world-class modelers doing a routine "disassemble-clean-lube" process who destroyed the engines in the process (and dozens of people who are not world-class modelers the same). In this case at least there really was an issue, but cleaning it in operation seemed a lot safer. Based on discussions with Dub Jett in other cases, I am pretty sure that's what they would have done had it been sent back for repair.

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Castor in AAC engines
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2018, 05:20:47 PM »
Hmmmm. I've been running an OS .46VF AAC (Randy Aero built engine, custom P&L) for quite a few years (6 or more) on PM 10-22 and more recently on Wildcat Premium 10-18, usually with 1 or 2 oz. Aero-1 added to a gallon. No problems with varnishing. Mystery!

Plus, I'm not aware of any "10-18" fuel that has 50-50 castor/synthetic. It's widely assumed that those fuels made with Klotz are 20-80 oil, with the 20 being castor. Not saying it's for sure not equal parts castor/synthetic. Would like to know what brand fuel it was...but we probably can't get it here anyway...  :(  Steve














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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Castor in AAC engines
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2018, 06:09:33 PM »
Hmmmm. I've been running an OS .46VF AAC (Randy Aero built engine, custom P&L) for quite a few years (6 or more) on PM 10-22 and more recently on Wildcat Premium 10-18, usually with 1 or 2 oz. Aero-1 added to a gallon. No problems with varnishing. Mystery!

Plus, I'm not aware of any "10-18" fuel that has 50-50 castor/synthetic. It's widely assumed that those fuels made with Klotz are 20-80 oil, with the 20 being castor. Not saying it's for sure not equal parts castor/synthetic. Would like to know what brand fuel it was...but we probably can't get it here anyway...  :(  Steve

  In the case to which I was referring,  it was doctored, supposedly, with 12.8 ounces of castor per gallon, which makes it a 15% version of Fox Superfuel. There may have been some misunderstanding but, in any case, adding castor was not a good idea.

    In any case, it is stunt "common knowledge" that adding castor oil is somehow conservative and in this case, it was disastrous.

    Brett

Offline RandySmith

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Re: Castor in AAC engines
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2018, 06:56:51 PM »
In most  AAC engines that have ball bearings  you should not need anything over 20 percent ol  and  you should   NOT  use  any more than  1/4 castor in the  oil
We have been running  this blend now for over 15 years  and  it works very well

Regards
Randy

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Castor in AAC engines
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2018, 10:46:37 PM »
In most  AAC engines that have ball bearings  you should not need anything over 20 percent ol  and  you should   NOT  use  any more than  1/4 castor in the  oil
We have been running  this blend now for over 15 years  and  it works very well

   It's another example of "Stunt lore", almost all of which was either only true in some conditions (but treated like a universal rule), or just plain wrong  (but so ingrained and "counter" to all those stupid eggheads who overthink everything that nobody ever stops and you can't kill it).

   "It was dead calm and 107 degrees out, and I had no line tension, so I put on a 10-6EW and it about pulled my arm off. Now I run wide-blade props all the time".

    "My ST46 was misfiring, and it got better when I added a .003 head shim, so now I automatically add .030 (which is 10x better)"

   and so forth.

      Brett

Offline RandySmith

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Re: Castor in AAC engines
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2018, 12:32:28 PM »
   It's another example of "Stunt lore", almost all of which was either only true in some conditions (but treated like a universal rule), or just plain wrong  (but so ingrained and "counter" to all those stupid eggheads who overthink everything that nobody ever stops and you can't kill it).

   "It was dead calm and 107 degrees out, and I had no line tension, so I put on a 10-6EW and it about pulled my arm off. Now I run wide-blade props all the time".

    "My ST46 was misfiring, and it got better when I added a .003 head shim, so now I automatically add .030 (which is 10x better)"

   and so forth.

      Brett

I used  50 50 synth/castor  starting back n the 70s  when everyone told me  only all castor,  well  all castor  ruined my engines, and many others, so turns out the  50/50  worked better   lubed better  did not  varnish the engines, and today   have several  FOX 35   36   and  ST 46s  that look new, not black  and  the FOX 35 I used at the  75 NATs  still is n great shape  and   can use  it  now.  When going  to the  AAC and  ABC engines  I went to  1/4  castor, but really  it would not be  much difference  to use  just  2 to 4 ounces  of you  oil castor, as long as you used a  good  synthetic, and  many use  all synthetic, Many people  ruined  Fox 35s and  OS 35 engines  back n the 70s  80s  running   "POWER"   named  R/C  sport fuels, these killed the motors, NOT because  they had bad oil, but because  the had 12 to 15%  total oil content, that will kill a FOX  no matter  what oil you  run.

Randy

Offline RandySmith

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Re: Castor in AAC engines
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2018, 10:33:53 AM »
I have a lot of people to ask me  about ol  for mixing, or  adding to fuel, so if you want a very simple way to do this just buy  Klotz   SUPER Techiplate , it already is  20%  Benol  castor  80%  synth.

Randy

Offline phil c

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Re: Castor in AAC engines
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2018, 11:18:58 AM »
Be happy you don't fly F2D combat.  The rules specify 10% nitro, 20% castor and methanol, because castor oil is "generally available".  Most flyers only use that for a few test flights before a contest and then go home an de-carbonize the engine.  At a big contest you either run out a a tankful with only synthetic between flights, or bring a couple spare engines and swap after 3-4 flights.
phil Cartier

Offline Brad LaPointe

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Re: Castor in AAC engines
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2018, 01:54:13 PM »
The muffler exhaust outlet used to be 8mm for F2D , then it changed it to 6 mm . Engines ran hotter ,more carbon buildup and smaller props resulted. I used “stunt” fuel ( 10/11/11) in my Foras for practice and trimming. Worked very nicely.

Brad

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Castor in AAC engines
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2018, 03:39:12 PM »
AAC or ABC it's still aluminum running on chrome so not sure what the difference would be. In racing engines I run 20% castor because it protects the best and gives the best range. The piston crown will turn black in the high revving glows but it doesn't seem to slow them down as much as taking them apart and cleaning lol.

   The difference is that the clearances are not the same cold and ABC usually have more taper (to accomodate the larger expansion).

     The problem of taking the engines apart and cleaning them is exactly as you say, many people who fancy themselves engine experts usually shoot themselves in the foot in the first few minutes with a new engines, just because they start by taking them apart and doing something. I know of two championship modelers, at the very highest level, that did the "disassemble/clean/lube" routine and wound up wrecking the engines semi-permanently. In one case, they sent the engine back complaining it was "no good" and "wouldn't work",  Oliver and Jett put it back together correctly, then he used the "unworkable" engine the next weekend to beat the same championship level modeler in a contest.

    Almost everyone, and particularly most people who are "engine experts", should be kept far away from tools around one's engine.

    Brett

   


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